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[Crius] Research feedback

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Airi Cho
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#241 - 2014-07-01 15:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Airi Cho
CCP Greyscale wrote:
- Yes, there are issues with throughput and online/offline time currently, this is something we are looking to address in future invention changes


So you really plan to go with the current numbers for inventions as dread listed above?

In all seriousness.... the numbers for inventions should halfed at least maybe even brought to 1/3. The overhead of copying was never as big as your "balance" makes it look now.

small edit:
If you had a nice stock pile of T1 BPCs for your products, you had a chance to react to market fluctuations/manipulations nicely. nowadays, you would need to stock pile T2 BPCs. And stock piling those is like impossible if you try to run any decent production through put.
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2014-07-02 17:04:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Pic'n dor
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hello citizens of Singularity,
-- T2 material costs increased by 1.5/0.9 to compensate for invention ME changes; this number is incorrect and will be fixed soon
-- T2 items currently require 2x the T1 item; this is incorrect and will be fixed soon
***SHOWINFO IS NOT ACCURATE***


Any update on the ToDo list ?

With 1 run T2 BPC only + manufacturing time increase on almost all ship (from inty 6 times longer to JF twice the time), we can expect a massiv shortage on popular ship around...

With the reduced margin (job cost increase, material cost increased, manufactring time increase), the T2 market is going skyrocket..

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE
Draconus Lofwyr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2014-07-02 22:09:11 UTC
current invention runs do not tell of success or failure on delivery, is this planned to be implemented before patch deployment?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#244 - 2014-07-03 16:14:52 UTC
Just pondering...

Someone recently said something about accessibility problems...

Then I see that ME-Research to ME8 for an Apocalypse BPO in a POS (1 Research Lab, System Cost Index is 2 (I think? Ugh)) costs me 550M + BPO + Fuel for 17 Days. And I look further and want it to TE-Research it to TE8, which sets me back another 870M + Fuel for another 17 Days. So all in all I am at 1.4B Installation cost + 1.3B BPO cost + Fuel...

And when I take this a step further and desire perfect ME and TE, it's the following:

TE10 (is that perfect? Ugh): 6.1B installation cost + Fuel for 91 Days
ME10 (that should be perfect): 4.1B installation cost + Fuel for 91 Days

You know what I mean? Roll

Frigs seem to pretty ok, I'd say. A bit low even, with only 14M and 23M for perfect ME and TE respectively in under 60 days. but above it's kind of ... exciting.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Nadarius Chrome
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#245 - 2014-07-04 00:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nadarius Chrome
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- Copy should be 80% of build time


So my entire build time was this.
4 days for copying 20 BPCs
2 hrs for Invention
Then 11.5 hrs for building and thats at a 50% invention success to T2 BPCs

On SiSi it is 25 days for copying 20 BPCs
and then its going to be 600 hours of copying, 13.5 hours of Inventention / building....thats 98% of my build time is copying....please explain this benefit for building T2 from invented BPCs


So we went from 109.5 Hours for copy/invent/build to 613.5

Copying WAS 80% of the build time for equipment now SiSi just jacked it up atleast 6 times....so if 25 days is 80% of the copy time its going to take 30 days to build 100 mods...so we went from 650+ mods a month to 100...

Please point out where I am missing the point of the new easier UI that I will use 15 times a month?

*Note I don't know the full build/invent times yet as I'm still copying
Lotus Ambrosia
Mad Men Inc
#246 - 2014-07-04 00:43:02 UTC
Question

How will cost of research be affected in a system with 10 Station were you can research compared to a system with only 1?
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#247 - 2014-07-04 03:48:11 UTC
Cost of ME research on BPOs is currently horribly broken on the test server. About a week ago, I was doing some checking, and to research a thanatos bpo from ME 0 to ME 10 cost roughly 660mil~ not fluctuating much depending on which station I did the research at. Seems a bit steep, but whatever.

Logged in today, price for the same job is now 7 billion to 49 billion isk, to research the thanatos bpo to ME 10. This is with a VERY low system cost index, 0% tax rate, and has held true through nearly all the stations I checked in Branch, Venal, Tenal, Vale of the Silent, Perrigen Falls, Malpais, and Oasa.

Cost seems to be normal and working on manufacturing job prices, as well as copying, just ME and PE research are horribly skewed.

Titan bpos are currently free to research, but most of the other capital ship bpos are way off.
Capital component bpos seem to be within 'reasonable' price ranges (50-100mil to research to Perfect ME)
Drak d'Amral
Necrotic Dancer Cartel
#248 - 2014-07-04 07:52:40 UTC
Nadarius Chrome wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- Copy should be 80% of build time


So my entire build time was this.
4 days for copying 20 BPCs
2 hrs for Invention
Then 11.5 hrs for building and thats at a 50% invention success to T2 BPCs

On SiSi it is 25 days for copying 20 BPCs
and then its going to be 600 hours of copying, 13.5 hours of Inventention / building....thats 98% of my build time is copying....please explain this benefit for building T2 from invented BPCs


So we went from 109.5 Hours for copy/invent/build to 613.5

Copying WAS 80% of the build time for equipment now SiSi just jacked it up atleast 6 times....so if 25 days is 80% of the copy time its going to take 30 days to build 100 mods...so we went from 650+ mods a month to 100...

Please point out where I am missing the point of the new easier UI that I will use 15 times a month?

*Note I don't know the full build/invent times yet as I'm still copying



you only need 1 run copy to make an invention, that means from the actual 300 rum max run copys you can start 300 inventions, so you will get aprox 150 * 10run T2 BPC's (for moduls)

if you are an inventer atm, hold your copies back, atm i think i don't need new copies for the next 4,5 years Lol
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#249 - 2014-07-04 10:05:30 UTC
Pic'n dor wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hello citizens of Singularity,
-- T2 material costs increased by 1.5/0.9 to compensate for invention ME changes; this number is incorrect and will be fixed soon
-- T2 items currently require 2x the T1 item; this is incorrect and will be fixed soon
***SHOWINFO IS NOT ACCURATE***


Any update on the ToDo list ?

With 1 run T2 BPC only + manufacturing time increase on almost all ship (from inty 6 times longer to JF twice the time), we can expect a massiv shortage on popular ship around...

With the reduced margin (job cost increase, material cost increased, manufactring time increase), the T2 market is going skyrocket..


Both the bulleted items are fixed.
T2 module materials are off, I'm fixing them but it's involved (anyone who says new industry is more complex than old industry has not tried to deal with the "recycle" flag)
10-run BPC outputs are working internally, should be on SiSi SomeTime(TM)
Lotus Ambrosia wrote:
Question

How will cost of research be affected in a system with 10 Station were you can research compared to a system with only 1?



Each additional station gives a small cost reduction, or a slightly larger reduction if they're research-type stations.

Arronicus wrote:
Cost of ME research on BPOs is currently horribly broken on the test server. About a week ago, I was doing some checking, and to research a thanatos bpo from ME 0 to ME 10 cost roughly 660mil~ not fluctuating much depending on which station I did the research at. Seems a bit steep, but whatever.

Logged in today, price for the same job is now 7 billion to 49 billion isk, to research the thanatos bpo to ME 10. This is with a VERY low system cost index, 0% tax rate, and has held true through nearly all the stations I checked in Branch, Venal, Tenal, Vale of the Silent, Perrigen Falls, Malpais, and Oasa.

Cost seems to be normal and working on manufacturing job prices, as well as copying, just ME and PE research are horribly skewed.

Titan bpos are currently free to research, but most of the other capital ship bpos are way off.
Capital component bpos seem to be within 'reasonable' price ranges (50-100mil to research to Perfect ME)


Research costs scale based on time; base cost is for level 1, and higher levels cost-scale based on what multiple of level 1 time they take. This means that you have significant decisions to make about whether or not (and where!) to research high-end blueprints to high levels.
Lotus Ambrosia
Mad Men Inc
#250 - 2014-07-04 14:05:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Research costs scale based on time; base cost is for level 1, and higher levels cost-scale based on what multiple of level 1 time they take. This means that you have significant decisions to make about whether or not (and where!) to research high-end blueprints to high levels.


GG new players
Jon Lucien
Goosefleet
Gooseflock Featheration
#251 - 2014-07-04 16:01:42 UTC
New players being able to participate in some manufacturing is important, but that doesn't mean they should have access to every part of it. They can't fly a titan on day 1, and they may not be able to afford to buy and research high-value blueprints. That's just the way it is.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#252 - 2014-07-04 17:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Jon Lucien wrote:
New players being able to participate in some manufacturing is important, but that doesn't mean they should have access to every part of it. They can't fly a titan on day 1, and they may not be able to afford to buy and research high-value blueprints. That's just the way it is.


4B to research an 1 aspect of an Apocalypse BPO in a system with a very low cost index, which is not going to happen on TQ?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#253 - 2014-07-04 18:06:03 UTC
Something to be aware of, pretty much all of the cost values on Singularity are garbage at this point because they are scaled based on activity, of which there is very little on the test server.

Our own simulations from TQ data put the estimated cost for manufacturing somewhere between 0-15% of the manufactured goods depending on where you build it. Research / Invention costs are a little trickier to calculate, but I have a developer blog coming out next week which will describe the cost formula in detail for those looking to update their spreadsheets.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#254 - 2014-07-04 18:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Something to be aware of, pretty much all of the cost values on Singularity are garbage at this point because they are scaled based on activity, of which there is very little on the test server.

Our own simulations from TQ data put the estimated cost for manufacturing somewhere between 0-15% of the manufactured goods depending on where you build it. Research / Invention costs are a little trickier to calculate, but I have a developer blog coming out next week which will describe the cost formula in detail for those looking to update their spreadsheets.


That sounds more reasonable. I am surprised, though, that the prices are so out of line on Sisi. I was of the impression that less activity means better cost. But you made it so that:

No activity in a system -> Terrible cost
Some activity -> barely acceptable cost
High activity -> Terrible cost

?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#255 - 2014-07-04 18:12:25 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Something to be aware of, pretty much all of the cost values on Singularity are garbage at this point because they are scaled based on activity, of which there is very little on the test server.

Our own simulations from TQ data put the estimated cost for manufacturing somewhere between 0-15% of the manufactured goods depending on where you build it. Research / Invention costs are a little trickier to calculate, but I have a developer blog coming out next week which will describe the cost formula in detail for those looking to update their spreadsheets.


That sounds more reasonable. I am surprised, though, that the prices are so out of line on Sisi. I was of the impression that less activity, better cost. But you made it so that:

No activity in a system -> Terrible cost
Some activity -> barely acceptable cost
High activity -> Terrible cost

?


It is activity in system vs global activity, which means with a small number of jobs submitted you end up with very erratic cost scaling.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#256 - 2014-07-04 21:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Arronicus
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Arronicus wrote:
Cost of ME research on BPOs is currently horribly broken on the test server. About a week ago, I was doing some checking, and to research a thanatos bpo from ME 0 to ME 10 cost roughly 660mil~ not fluctuating much depending on which station I did the research at. Seems a bit steep, but whatever.

Logged in today, price for the same job is now 7 billion to 49 billion isk, to research the thanatos bpo to ME 10. This is with a VERY low system cost index, 0% tax rate, and has held true through nearly all the stations I checked in Branch, Venal, Tenal, Vale of the Silent, Perrigen Falls, Malpais, and Oasa.

Cost seems to be normal and working on manufacturing job prices, as well as copying, just ME and PE research are horribly skewed.

Titan bpos are currently free to research, but most of the other capital ship bpos are way off.
Capital component bpos seem to be within 'reasonable' price ranges (50-100mil to research to Perfect ME)


Research costs scale based on time; base cost is for level 1, and higher levels cost-scale based on what multiple of level 1 time they take. This means that you have significant decisions to make about whether or not (and where!) to research high-end blueprints to high levels.


Hold on just a moment there, you're telling me that researching a blueprint that costs roughly a billion isk (capital component bpo) to ME 10 over the course of ~100 days for ~100mil, whereas another blueprint that costs roughly 1.1bil (carrier blueprint) to ME 10 over the course of ~300 days, for ~7-50 billion isk, is intended?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#257 - 2014-07-05 05:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Arronicus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Research costs scale based on time; base cost is for level 1, and higher levels cost-scale based on what multiple of level 1 time they take. This means that you have significant decisions to make about whether or not (and where!) to research high-end blueprints to high levels.


Hold on just a moment there, you're telling me that researching a blueprint that costs roughly a billion isk (capital component bpo) to ME 10 over the course of ~100 days for ~100mil, whereas another blueprint that costs roughly 1.1bil (carrier blueprint) to ME 10 over the course of ~300 days, for ~7-50 billion isk, is intended?


Probably not. Judging by CCP Nullarbor's last 2 posts, it is the case on Sisi because there's not enough jobs running, and that it will be significantly lower on TQ. Remains to be seen how that pans out.

I sure hope that I don't need to pay ~12B to research a BS BPO to max levels. ^^

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#258 - 2014-07-05 22:39:45 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Research costs scale based on time; base cost is for level 1, and higher levels cost-scale based on what multiple of level 1 time they take. This means that you have significant decisions to make about whether or not (and where!) to research high-end blueprints to high levels.


Hold on just a moment there, you're telling me that researching a blueprint that costs roughly a billion isk (capital component bpo) to ME 10 over the course of ~100 days for ~100mil, whereas another blueprint that costs roughly 1.1bil (carrier blueprint) to ME 10 over the course of ~300 days, for ~7-50 billion isk, is intended?


Probably not. Judging by CCP Nullarbor's last 2 posts, it is the case on Sisi because there's not enough jobs running, and that it will be significantly lower on TQ. Remains to be seen how that pans out.

I sure hope that I don't need to pay ~12B to research a BS BPO to max levels. ^^


Thing is, most bpos require a reasonable amount of isk to research to max levels. I can check a BS later, but I'd be willing to bet it's under 120mil, it's just actual capital ship bpos which have their research costs set to insane values that noone would ever pay. But let's suppose for a moment, that costs ARE actually working as intended for carrier bpos, that means an archon BPO costs around 4 billion isk to research from ME 9 to ME 10. ME 9 to ME 10, when you are producing out of a single upgraded amarr station, or out of a POS, is a savings of 2 components on that Archon (7 if you have no ME bonus from pos or station). So, at lets say 12mil per component, we're looking at a savings of 24 mil per run. 7 1/4 days per run puts us at 4 per month, or 48 per year. That's 1152m per year.

Return on investment under current figures puts researching an archon from ME 9 to ME 10 at 3 1/2 years just to break even. Clearly something is broken, or max researched capital bpos are supposed to be the new Tech 2 bpos.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#259 - 2014-07-06 02:23:09 UTC
Jon Lucien wrote:
New players being able to participate in some manufacturing is important, but that doesn't mean they should have access to every part of it. They can't fly a titan on day 1, and they may not be able to afford to buy and research high-value blueprints. That's just the way it is.
The issue is the changing rules for the new players. It's like older union workers that have diamond encrusted, platinum retirement plans -- and new workers that are told they are lucky to have jobs.
Soul Azizora
Unnatural Illuminati
#260 - 2014-07-06 05:28:42 UTC
Did a quick skim - couldn't see this mentioned anywhere.

Might be nice to be able to see mats for invention on a BPO in show-info? Having it greyed out on a BPO makes sense in terms of starting it - but not in terms of getting information I think?