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Crime & Punishment

 
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Bring me the head of a CFC titan pilot!

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Catalytic morphisis
Deep Space Coalition
Fraternity.
#781 - 2014-07-01 10:25:07 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
He does not understand fun. If it can't be quantified with an ISK value, it is worthless.

Actually it's "if it can't be quantified, it's irrelevant". As soon as you come up with a reliable fun meter, we can start caring about fun.

What about the direct correlation between fun and effectiveness within a game. That being the more FUN someone is having directly influences how effective they are within a game. Hell if you play a game without the intent of having fun you should really take a good hard look at yourself as that is all games are designed for, Fun. If you really treat EVE like its reality and that everything you do you have to do in order to "Make ends meet" Then you need to go out, Get a ******* job and move out of your parents basement.

I firmly believe people like you who genuinely think like this should be tested before letting out into the world and reproducing, as it would just be criminal to let someone so delusional to believe this **** you spew have offspring

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Maichin Civire
#782 - 2014-07-01 11:47:15 UTC
As I love this thread, I'm afraid that gg won't have enough courage to start enough... and to get burned to ground.

Also

Quote:
Actually it's "if it can't be quantified, it's irrelevant". As soon as you come up with a reliable fun meter, we can start caring about fun.


Yesterday I was on tennis court and played with few friends for four hours. We haven't counted any points, we just tried to play better. Is it irrevelant in your mind, and we've completely wasted money/time/friendship?
Xenuria
#783 - 2014-07-01 12:00:24 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Look at us raging on page 39.

Goons do not rage, they seethe with dull indignance. Then they post about it on the forums pretending not to be affected by it.

CSM 12 Candidate
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#784 - 2014-07-01 12:09:57 UTC
Xenuria wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Look at us raging on page 39.

Goons do not rage, they seethe with dull indignance. Then they post about it on the forums pretending not to be affected by it.


How would you know?

Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#785 - 2014-07-01 12:30:48 UTC
Maichin Civire wrote:

Yesterday I was on tennis court and played with few friends for four hours. We haven't counted any points, we just tried to play better. Is it irrevelant in your mind, and we've completely wasted money/time/friendship?


Not to mention the opportunity costs. You could have been doing something else during that time to earn ISK. And, moreover, you stopped people from playing a real game by taking up the courts.

Waste of time, money, and (pfft) friendship... confirmed!!


Oh... wait... nevermind..

I dont have a graph to back up my data.

Damn.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#786 - 2014-07-01 14:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
He does not understand fun. If it can't be quantified with an ISK value, it is worthless.

Actually it's "if it can't be quantified, it's irrelevant". As soon as you come up with a reliable fun meter, we can start caring about fun.

By this logic, the overwhelming majority of biology doesn't exist as a study field to you, because it makes use of qualitative measures. This will include most of modern medicine.

Though I guess it is convenient to you to imagine that psychology doesn't exist, because the list of diagnoses that leave someone unable to even understand the concept of fun, is not a pretty read.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Logan PewPew
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#787 - 2014-07-01 14:53:58 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
He does not understand fun. If it can't be quantified with an ISK value, it is worthless.

Actually it's "if it can't be quantified, it's irrelevant". As soon as you come up with a reliable fun meter, we can start caring about fun.

By this logic, the overwhelming majority of biology doesn't exist as a study field to you, because it makes use of qualitative measures. This will include most of modern medicine.

Though I guess it is convenient to you to imagine that psychology doesn't exist, because the list of diagnoses that leave someone unable to even understand the concept of fun, is not a pretty read.


psht...Doctors? Scientists? Liberal media conspiracy.

Science is not settled, friend. I know this because a politician told me so and i trust their moral values.
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#788 - 2014-07-01 15:05:06 UTC
Pony can not be quantified. Not because it is irrelevent, but because it is beyond our science.

Magic.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Pete Butcher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#789 - 2014-07-01 15:05:53 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
He does not understand fun. If it can't be quantified with an ISK value, it is worthless.

Actually it's "if it can't be quantified, it's irrelevant". As soon as you come up with a reliable fun meter, we can start caring about fun.


And because of that, you fail in and out of the game. How do you even survive in RL? It's like you are unable to have a good time, so you go defensive and try to prove fun is irrelevant. Classic case of living in denial.

http://evernus.com - the ultimate multiplatform EVE trade tool + nullsec Alliance Market tool
Radric Davids
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#790 - 2014-07-01 15:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Radric Davids
The utter lack of understanding of fun is really the underlying issue for Gevlon Goblin. All of his absurd claims, irrelevant half-assed data sets/graphs, and his failed crusade in general are underpinned by his inability to understand what motivates people (in video games) - fun, happiness and enjoyment.

He tries to dunk CFC by invoking 'opportunity cost' and claiming that hours we spend on a tower shoot, or pvp'ing are wasted because we could have been ratting instead. He doesn't understand that fun greatly outweighs isk in terms of value, and that nobody aside from him sees eve as a model for maximizing isk/hr at the expense of fun and enjoyment.

Because of his lack of understanding of fun, he spends his entire eve career on a massive butt-hurt crusade with no realistic chance of success against a group of happy, fun-loving players - while completely missing the fact that his entire eve career is an opportunity cost loss.


Perhaps the most hilarious fact of all, is that Gevlon has spent years crusading against the goons, wasting away a fairly significant chunk of his life, sacrificing all fun and enjoyment, and he will never succeed or make any impact. We will continue to have fun and he will not. It's actually quite sad when you think about it. The poor guy has spent huge amounts of time out of his life on an fun-less campaign to try to ruin the fun of a group of players - all because some goons killed him a few times while he was trying to shoot a high sec poco, and made fun of him in local. poor (pathetic) guy
Lady Areola Fappington
#791 - 2014-07-01 15:29:37 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:

By this logic, the overwhelming majority of biology doesn't exist as a study field to you, because it makes use of qualitative measures. This will include most of modern medicine.



True facts. One of the bigger "revolutions" recently in patient care has been a shift from quantitative pain management (Give the patient 5mg morphine every 6 hours), to qualitative pain management (give the patient morphine until they stop feeling pain).

It's called Patient Controlled Analgesia, and we quite literally hand the patient a button hooked to a morphine pump, and say "Hit this till it stops hurting." (yes, the pump has a top dose limit. Patient can ask for as much analgesia, as often as they want, within that limit).


I'm sure though, in order to refrain from hypocrisy, GG will refrain from asking for PCA if they're ever stuck in the hospital. It's quite subjective. He can use the old-style objective body weight/dose time curve, and hope for the best.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#792 - 2014-07-01 15:33:37 UTC
One other problem with denying fun as a factor is you eliminate the best tool to destroy any large group. If you eliminate the fun, people stop logging in and participating. If people do not log in, the alliance dies. Not saying this could be accomplished with goons, but goons have used this to attack their enemies.

When wars drag on, Goons enter a "no fun for the other guy mode". They cut back on super/cap ops. They focus on grinding structures to make the enemy rep them or grind them back. They avoid or "blue-ball" any enemy fleet. The result, the enemy gets bored, participation drops, goons gain an advantage.
Logan PewPew
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#793 - 2014-07-01 15:50:18 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
One other problem with denying fun as a factor is you eliminate the best tool to destroy any large group. If you eliminate the fun, people stop logging in and participating. If people do not log in, the alliance dies. Not saying this could be accomplished with goons, but goons have used this to attack their enemies.

When wars drag on, Goons enter a "no fun for the other guy mode". They cut back on super/cap ops. They focus on grinding structures to make the enemy rep them or grind them back. They avoid or "blue-ball" any enemy fleet. The result, the enemy gets bored, participation drops, goons gain an advantage.


Isn't this a double-edged sword? I mean, you have to basically do the same to yourself in order to accomplish this, no?
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#794 - 2014-07-01 16:35:11 UTC
Logan PewPew wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
One other problem with denying fun as a factor is you eliminate the best tool to destroy any large group. If you eliminate the fun, people stop logging in and participating. If people do not log in, the alliance dies. Not saying this could be accomplished with goons, but goons have used this to attack their enemies.

When wars drag on, Goons enter a "no fun for the other guy mode". They cut back on super/cap ops. They focus on grinding structures to make the enemy rep them or grind them back. They avoid or "blue-ball" any enemy fleet. The result, the enemy gets bored, participation drops, goons gain an advantage.


Isn't this a double-edged sword? I mean, you have to basically do the same to yourself in order to accomplish this, no?


Yes - but here two factors give CFC a big advantage. First of them is a large base number pool to replace those who inevitably burn out on POS bashes.

Second advantage is that they can even treat blueballs as "griefing the enemy". As long as the "enemy is crying because we denied them a fight", it's "us doing harm to them" - and therefore, something good.

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#795 - 2014-07-01 16:45:16 UTC
Logan PewPew wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
One other problem with denying fun as a factor is you eliminate the best tool to destroy any large group. If you eliminate the fun, people stop logging in and participating. If people do not log in, the alliance dies. Not saying this could be accomplished with goons, but goons have used this to attack their enemies.

When wars drag on, Goons enter a "no fun for the other guy mode". They cut back on super/cap ops. They focus on grinding structures to make the enemy rep them or grind them back. They avoid or "blue-ball" any enemy fleet. The result, the enemy gets bored, participation drops, goons gain an advantage.


Isn't this a double-edged sword? I mean, you have to basically do the same to yourself in order to accomplish this, no?


Eh, it all depends on fun. If your comms and alliance are all super serious business, then such actions will hurt your own fleet participation. If, on the other hand, comms are fun with everyone joking, having a good time, and enjoying the banter, whatever grinding you are doing will flyby.

I can say I've been in both. I was in Atlas/Fail Cascade/TEST getting kickef out of Querious. CTAs tended to be super serious events, with no banter and a lot of complaining. It was not fun. I decide such was not the life for me when I lost my BS, managed to refit in a neutral station and bring back a kestrel to continue adding DPS instead of just podding home. Some guy who joined late and had missed the few hours, complained I was in kestrel, yet I had contributed far more dps and acted as a scout. To me it was a toxic fleet and not worth the constant struggle.

On the other hand, when bashing POCOs with RvB on the first day, though it was a similar grind, it was far more fun on comms. We had a blast, even laughed when or FC managed to get himself concorded. We never had problems getting fleets up to defend or take more pocos because it was fun.
Rumple Tugly
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#796 - 2014-07-01 16:46:06 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Arkady Romanov wrote:
He does not understand fun. If it can't be quantified with an ISK value, it is worthless.

Actually it's "if it can't be quantified, it's irrelevant". As soon as you come up with a reliable fun meter, we can start caring about fun.


If this is a serious statement and not a troll you flat out fail at life dude.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#797 - 2014-07-01 16:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Logan PewPew wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
One other problem with denying fun as a factor is you eliminate the best tool to destroy any large group. If you eliminate the fun, people stop logging in and participating. If people do not log in, the alliance dies. Not saying this could be accomplished with goons, but goons have used this to attack their enemies.

When wars drag on, Goons enter a "no fun for the other guy mode". They cut back on super/cap ops. They focus on grinding structures to make the enemy rep them or grind them back. They avoid or "blue-ball" any enemy fleet. The result, the enemy gets bored, participation drops, goons gain an advantage.


Isn't this a double-edged sword? I mean, you have to basically do the same to yourself in order to accomplish this, no?

If you're attacking, and your paricipation drops a bit because people aren't engaged enough to log in, your progress is slow, and you get to keep trying.
If you're defending and your participation drops, you start losing your space.

The CFC war machine has shown one thing consistently; you can grind down the enemy into losing objectives, as soon as that starts, you gain momentum and it's all over but the screaming.

That Gevlon keeps saying "bombless bombers!" as though they're a terrible idea unto themselves is telling; he literally can't process that the reason they worked is because they denied TEST fun. He doesn't know what fun is, so he can't perceive why they worked. He will keep parroting "bombless bombers!" without realising that the reason he will never win, is wrapped up in the reason we used them.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#798 - 2014-07-01 16:56:08 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Logan PewPew wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
One other problem with denying fun as a factor is you eliminate the best tool to destroy any large group. If you eliminate the fun, people stop logging in and participating. If people do not log in, the alliance dies. Not saying this could be accomplished with goons, but goons have used this to attack their enemies.

When wars drag on, Goons enter a "no fun for the other guy mode". They cut back on super/cap ops. They focus on grinding structures to make the enemy rep them or grind them back. They avoid or "blue-ball" any enemy fleet. The result, the enemy gets bored, participation drops, goons gain an advantage.


Isn't this a double-edged sword? I mean, you have to basically do the same to yourself in order to accomplish this, no?


Yes - but here two factors give CFC a big advantage. First of them is a large base number pool to replace those who inevitably burn out on POS bashes.

Second advantage is that they can even treat blueballs as "griefing the enemy". As long as the "enemy is crying because we denied them a fight", it's "us doing harm to them" - and therefore, something good.
We also have the added benefit that we love to sit around doing nowt but drinking and trolling. That and the songs of uncle suas to keep us entertained means we can do hours and hours of structure shoots and blueballing without feeling too much burn. Add on that you can multibox those and play something else on top and it becomes pretty easy to withstand it. I'd hate to see what would happen if we found another group like us though and rolled bore tactics against each other. It would be like watching world championship staring competitions.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#799 - 2014-07-01 16:58:51 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
That Gevlon keeps saying "bombless bombers!" as though they're a terrible idea unto themselves is telling; he literally can't process that the reason they worked is because they denied TEST fun. He doesn't know what fun is, so he can't perceive why they worked. He will keep parroting "bombless bombers!" without realising that the reason he will never win, is wrapped up in the reason we used them.
I don't think it's possible for this to be more true. Strategy is not Gevlon's friend.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lady Areola Fappington
#800 - 2014-07-01 17:12:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Lucas Kell wrote:

We also have the added benefit that we love to sit around doing nowt but drinking and trolling. That and the songs of uncle suas to keep us entertained means we can do hours and hours of structure shoots and blueballing without feeling too much burn. Add on that you can multibox those and play something else on top and it becomes pretty easy to withstand it. I'd hate to see what would happen if we found another group like us though and rolled bore tactics against each other. It would be like watching world championship staring competitions.



Wait, doesn't DBRB just trick newbies into struct bashing by claiming it really is a supercap with the pilot logged? I thought that's how you got the numbers to grind like that.

That, and the Lyris Bomber Mind Control Technique.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide