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[Kronos] Mordu's Legion

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#921 - 2014-05-21 03:09:46 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Useless bonuses, crap fittings and questionable roles...

More Barghest for me. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#922 - 2014-05-21 04:10:12 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
See my suggestion from some pages back...

So we give up the utility high and 0.5 effective launchers in exchange for the ability to run a pair of soon-to-be-neutered Geckos and some extra damage application for cruise and torpedoes (only) that can be replicated by a single rigor rig? I'll keep my utility high, the 7 launchers and the +5% damage bonus...

As I've repeatedly said, the proposed Barghest is perfect as is. A 7.5% damage bonus would just sweeten the deal.

It's far from perfect.. Rapid Heavies may hit a mark.. But Torps aren't gonna hit much worth anything.. You're looking at pathetic applied DPS.

I'd rather get GOOD hits all the time against BS targets.. than have high DPS that hits for 60%..
Sure Rigs can make up for some of it, but then that's a rig you ALWAYS need to fit, can't use it for tank or anything else.

Applied DPS > Paper DPS. This isn't a POS bashing ship, it's designed to catch and kill you. It should be able to apply that damage.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#923 - 2014-05-21 04:27:04 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
It's far from perfect.. Rapid Heavies may hit a mark.. But Torps aren't gonna hit much worth anything.. You're looking at pathetic applied DPS.

I'd rather get GOOD hits all the time against BS targets.. than have high DPS that hits for 60%..
Sure Rigs can make up for some of it, but then that's a rig you ALWAYS need to fit, can't use it for tank or anything else.

Applied DPS > Paper DPS. This isn't a POS bashing ship, it's designed to catch and kill you. It should be able to apply that damage.

I think you're missing the point. You can improve damage application with rigors, flares, webs and target painters; beyond 4 ballistic controllers, you can not increase raw damage (and it's only a ~2.5% gain on the 4th). In any event, your proposal specifically excludes all missile weapons outside of cruise missiles and torpedoes. And this is even before the loss of the utility high which further nerfs the potential drone range for your expanded drone capability.

And your damage assessment for torpedoes is way off. Torpedoes can, do and will absolutely murder frigates with rigors, flares and Javelin ammunition. It should be quite entertaining seeing these hit out to well over 60km @ cruise missile speeds...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#924 - 2014-05-21 05:16:32 UTC
CCP Rise, any chance of re-introducing Faction FoF missiles through the LP stores again?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#925 - 2014-05-21 09:14:16 UTC
Fwiw javelin torps have the same stats as t1 and faction torps aside from lower damage and some extra range. If your target is in range to be hit by t1 torps then should use those over javs every time
HuGo87
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#926 - 2014-05-21 09:43:01 UTC
Noriko Mai wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
200% bonus to speed + 50% penalty to flight time = 50% bonus to range.


Where X is speed, and Y is flight time:
XY is Range.

With bonuses and penalties:
3X * 0.5Y = 1.5XY

This! Why give bonus and penalty at the same time???


Rek Seven wrote:
They look alright at first glance.

Quote:
Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time


I though we were done with this kind of confusing bonus? Why not give them less velocity bonus and do away with the flight penalty? It only matters for the first wave or missiles anyway.


It avoids ships outrunning the missiles. Someone orbiting you faster than you missiles move will simply outrun them until their flight time runs out.

Also if you and your target are moving at 3km/s in a certain direction, 20km from each other, missiles need to do more than 20km to hit them, and the distance is inversely proportional to the missile speed.
HuGo87
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#927 - 2014-05-21 10:57:18 UTC
Sheimi Madaveda wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Yes, my point was not to underestimate the value of a utility high. I was editing my post to reference the State Raven so I think you missed that portion, but from a purely aesthetic standpoint - yes, 8 launchers would be purtier. However, since this would put the damage above that of a State Raven - I don't expect we'd still see the 25% damage bonus on 8 launchers without taking a hit somewhere else.

Since we're into "wishful thinking", what I'd actually prefer is 6 launchers with a +50% damage bonus, one less high slot (total of 7) and an extra low slot (also 7). That actually gives it marginally better damage (9.0 effective vs. 8.75) as well as allowing for a decent armour tank configuration.


It wouldn't break the DPS of the State Raven because 25% RoF is better than 25% Damage unless you are using RHML.

I remember throwing stuff into EFT sometime and the State Raven has the highest potential DPS of any BS in the game... it even beats the Vindicator by a measurable amount. Caldari's got mad deeps man, mad deeps.


If only there were any on the market. They're limited edition, and I don't think any of us will be getting our hands of State Ravens any time soon.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#928 - 2014-05-21 11:14:20 UTC
Somebody talking about the state raven? Seriously? That's like claiming the Cambion is an overpowered assault frig..
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#929 - 2014-05-21 12:37:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hagika
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
The Barghest and the Rattlesnake are two very different ships.

My support for the 8th launcher is 60% aesthetic and 40% because I think more people will buy the ship if it has eight launchers. I don't really think it will be that much more effective...

Yes, my point was not to underestimate the value of a utility high. I was editing my post to reference the State Raven so I think you missed that portion, but from a purely aesthetic standpoint - yes, 8 launchers would be purtier. However, since this would put the damage above that of a State Raven - I don't expect we'd still see the 25% damage bonus on 8 launchers without taking a hit somewhere else.

Since we're into "wishful thinking", what I'd actually prefer is 6 launchers with a +50% damage bonus, one less high slot (total of 7) and an extra low slot (also 7). That actually gives it marginally better damage (9.0 effective vs. 8.75) as well as allowing for a decent armour tank configuration.



The state raven is a rare and almost non existent ship in the game now. There is 2 left maybe? If the ship was common and buildable in game, i would understand, but it will no longer see any use and is pretty much gone.

There really is no issue here with the Barg being similar dps. It also doesnt have the drone ability of the state Raven with its full flight of heavies.

Everyone needs to get over this idea of, this or that ship will match the damage of another, then it can not be buffed. All you are doing is hindering the new ships to be as good as others. In this case you are worried about a ship no on will use ever again and is pretty much not in game.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#930 - 2014-05-21 13:06:52 UTC
Even so much as comparing any missile hurler to the State Raven should be punishable by lashings. The state raven is not something one just acquires. Don't even be surprised if the only two owners of them left are Mittani himself and progodlegend
Rikimaru Ichikawa
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#931 - 2014-05-21 13:39:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Say hello to the newest pirate faction in New Eden, Mordu's Legion.


Mordu's ships are focused on three main themes: speed, missiles, and warp scram/disruptor range. The primary goal is to have a very capable set of kiting ships that are especially attractive to PVPers. They will get bonuses from Caldari and Gallente spaceship command skills. We initially wanted to fill the Caldari/Minmatar faction gap, but the existing factions didn't really support that and adding story and assets for an entirely new faction wasn't practical. Mordu's Legion suits our goals extremely well in every other way so we are very happy with them (and their scary stealth pizza pan art).

Look forward to hearing what you guys think, we are pretty excited.



=======================================================================================

GARMUR

Caldari Frigate Bonus per level:
25% bonus to missile damage

Gallente Frigate Bonus per level:
10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor range

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 38 PWG, 178 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 680 / 590 / 560
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 400 / 2.05
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 415 / 3.2 / 987000 / 4.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 28km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 13
Signature radius: 32

=======================================================================================

ORTHRUS

Caldari Cruiser Bonus per level:
20% bonus to missile damage

Gallente Cruiser Bonus per level:
10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor range

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 4L; 0 turrets, 5 launchers
Fittings: 900 PWG, 460 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2950 / 2280 / 2100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 1550 / 3.16
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 245 / .48 / 9362000 / 6.23s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 300 / 7
Sensor strength: 21
Signature radius: 120

=======================================================================================

BARGHEST

Caldari Battleship Bonus per level:
5% bonus to missile damage

Gallente Battleship Bonus per level:
10% bonus to warp scrambler and warp disruptor range

Role Bonus:
200% bonus to missile velocity
50% penalty to missile flight time

Slot layout: 8H, 6M, 6L; 0 turrets, 7 launchers
Fittings: 11600 PWG, 730 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 11200 / 8750 / 8100
Capacitor (amount / cap/sec) : 6100 / 5.28
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 148 / .098 / 98467000 / 13.38s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 76km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 29
Signature radius: 370

=======================================================================================

They can be purchased from the Mordu’s Legion LP store in Pure Blind for the following prices:

Garmur Blueprint: 20,000 LP and 10,000,000 isk
Garmur: 80,000 LP and 5,000,000 isk
Orthrus Blueprint: 80,000 LP and 20,000,000 isk
Orthrus: 240,000 LP and 15,000,000 isk
Barghest Blueprint: 400,000 LP and 100,000,000 isk
Barghest: 800,000 LP and 80,000,000 isk

The larger part of the supply will come from a set of new NPCs that will spawn in all lowsec asteroid belts. These will be uncommon npcs with a similar rarity to hauler spawns. Each NPC will appear by itself and will drop the blueprint for its associated ship 100% of the time. The chance of these Mordu’s Legion NPCs spawning is equal in all areas of lowsec.


Awesome: CCP Rise, can you update the OP with pictures of the ships. I know there's been concept art posted elsewhere in a blog, but would be nice to have one point of reference for these ships. Thanks Smile
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#932 - 2014-05-21 13:45:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Hagika wrote:
Everyone needs to get over this idea of, this or that ship will match the damage of another, then it can not be buffed. All you are doing is hindering the new ships to be as good as others. In this case you are worried about a ship no on will use ever again and is pretty much not in game.

When this actually happens I'll be in complete agreement. However, the fact is that any rebalance or introduction of new ships has always fallen below the power of the alliance tournament ships - regardless of how rare they may actually be. It's not me you need to convince...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
A4443 Suicide Gank
Summer of Mumuit
Remember Mumuit
#933 - 2014-05-21 14:01:24 UTC
The missile damage bonus of the barghest is too low for a ship, that may cost more than the nestor. My suggestion is, to remove one launcher slot and increase the damage bonus to 15%, that gives the Barghest 10.5 effective launchers. then, remove one hi-slot and add it to mids or lows.

The Orthus could need some base speed and capacitor
Increase base speed to 255 m/s and cap to 1800
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#934 - 2014-05-21 14:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
A4443 Suicide Gank wrote:
The missile damage bonus of the barghest is too low for a ship, that may cost more than the nestor. My suggestion is, to remove one launcher slot and increase the damage bonus to 15%, that gives the Barghest 10.5 effective launchers. then, remove one hi-slot and add it to mids or lows.

The Orthus could need some base speed and capacitor
Increase base speed to 255 m/s and cap to 1800

I'm fairly certain the Barghest will cost more than the Nestor because I think the BPC drops are going to be fairly rare and the cost of acquiring the ships through LP in Mordu's Legion will be greater than through the SoE. There are also no high-sec Mordu's Legion offices, so this ship will almost be exclusively available through low and null-sec players. I'd like to see them introduce some low-sec agent offices for Mordu's Legion, but I'm not sure that's in the cards.

Not to shatter your dreams, but there is no way we're going to see a 6-launcher setup with +75% damage bonus and an extra mid or low. That's even more grandiose than a 8-launcher setup with +25% damage bonus. The most modest expectation might be a +37.5% bonus with a 7-launcher setup (which I and others have proposed going back to the beginning of the thread), but even i'm not very optimistic about that since the proposed iteration is perfectly acceptable.

Everyone who's demising missile velocity as a "useless" bonus obviously hasn't used missiles to any extent. The simple fact of the matter is that unless you're at point blank range you will always loose dps to lost volleys - even with careful micromanagement. So unlike guns, the paper dps of missiles is almost always unattainable. The missile velocity bonus changes this because it will enable the Mordu's Legion ships to apply damage to a target in short order and prior to the next cycle. This is particularly important for rapid launchers, as the average dps suffers when you factor in the reload time - and you can easily lose 10-15% or more of your total dps to lost volleys.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#935 - 2014-05-21 15:17:47 UTC
Any devs like to chime in on peoples thoughts of the Barg, needing a little more of a boost?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#936 - 2014-05-21 16:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Rise, since the discussion in this thread has been very reasonable - could you please address the valid concern raised with respect to the Barghest?

1. While the warp disruption range bonus is beneficial on the Garmur and Orthrus, it's not necessarily well-suited for the Barghest. We do realize that traditionally these bonuses extend throughout a particular Pirate faction line, although there is precedent for some variation (ie: new Rattlesnake, Nestor). Might it be possible to substitute the warp disruption range bonus for one of the following: a) -10% reduction in missile launcher reload time, b) +5% increase in missile launcher ammunition capacity or c) +5% explosion velocity.

2. If it is not possible to change the warp disruption range bonus, might we instead see a slight increase to missile damage on the Barghest from the current 5% (8.75 effective launchers) to 7.5% (9.625 effective launchers)?

If you are no longer involved with ship rebalancing, could you please ask CCP Fozzie to visit this thread to respond to some of these inquiries? Thanks.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
ZecsMarquis
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#937 - 2014-05-21 17:05:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Rise, since the discussion in this thread has been very reasonable - could you please address the valid concern raised with respect to the Barghest?

1. While the warp disruption range bonus is beneficial on the Garmur and Orthrus, it's not necessarily well-suited for the Barghest. We do realize that traditionally these bonuses extend throughout a particular Pirate faction line, although there is precedent for some variation (ie: new Rattlesnake, Nestor). Might it be possible to substitute the warp disruption range bonus for one of the following: a) -10% reduction in missile launcher reload time, b) +5% increase in missile launcher ammunition capacity or c) +5% explosion velocity.

2. If it is not possible to change the warp disruption range bonus, might we instead see a slight increase to missile damage on the Barghest from the current 5% (8.75 effective launchers) to 7.5% (9.625 effective launchers)?

If you are no longer involved with ship rebalancing, could you please ask CCP Fozzie to visit this thread to respond to some of these inquiries? Thanks.


All changes are really good proposals as well. I'd be perfectly happy with any of these.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#938 - 2014-05-21 17:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Rise, since the discussion in this thread has been very reasonable - could you please address the valid concern raised with respect to the Barghest?

1. While the warp disruption range bonus is beneficial on the Garmur and Orthrus, it's not necessarily well-suited for the Barghest. We do realize that traditionally these bonuses extend throughout a particular Pirate faction line, although there is precedent for some variation (ie: new Rattlesnake, Nestor). Might it be possible to substitute the warp disruption range bonus for one of the following: a) -10% reduction in missile launcher reload time, b) +5% increase in missile launcher ammunition capacity or c) +5% explosion velocity.

2. If it is not possible to change the warp disruption range bonus, might we instead see a slight increase to missile damage on the Barghest from the current 5% (8.75 effective launchers) to 7.5% (9.625 effective launchers)?

If you are no longer involved with ship rebalancing, could you please ask CCP Fozzie to visit this thread to respond to some of these inquiries? Thanks.


Good luck, they sound quite reasonable.
regarding
Quote:
traditionally these bonuses extend throughout a particular Pirate faction line, although there is precedent for some variation (ie: new Rattlesnake,etc

The rattlesnake is claimed to have the Bonus to Drones as the Gurista's flavour, but it just forgets to give it Sad and just has existing damage, hopefully as a placeholder. It must have been a busy day, hopefully that will get sorted.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#939 - 2014-05-21 17:38:43 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Good luck, they sound quite reasonable.

Stranger things have happened; I'm still cautiously optimistic we'll get a response...

epicurus ataraxia wrote:
The rattlesnake is claimed to have the Bonus to Drones as the Gurista's flavour, but it just forgets to give it Sad It must have been a busy day, hopefully that will get sorted.

Hero drones don't come cheap. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zamyslinski
Beach Boys
The Minions.
#940 - 2014-05-21 18:09:37 UTC
CCP rise you told me in the rapid missile thread you goin to look into issues with heavy missile damage aplication.

Any news yet?