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[Kronos] Mordu's Legion

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Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#581 - 2014-05-14 01:17:03 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Many of us been waiting a long time for a missile-based Pirate ship, so could some of you please stop trying to kill these before they're even released?

The Cerberus deals 738 damage (868 overheated) out to 37.9km with Rage heavy assault missiles ... The Tengu deals 886 damage (1042 overheated) out to 25.2km, also with Rage heavy assault missiles... And the Orthrus does 738 damage (868 overheated) out to 25.2km as well, again with Rage heavy assault missiles. These numbers are with V skills and 4x T2 BCUs.

I'm honestly not sure where some of you are getting your numbers from, but even with +5 implants and Faction BCU's you'll be hard-pressed to break 1000 dps (even overheated) in the Orthrus.

No one with a brain will fly these ships shortrange with Rage HAMs. Everything on that ship screams KITE KITE KITE.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#582 - 2014-05-14 01:23:05 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Many of us been waiting a long time for a missile-based Pirate ship, so could some of you please stop trying to kill these before they're even released?

The Cerberus deals 738 damage (868 overheated) out to 37.9km with Rage heavy assault missiles ... The Tengu deals 886 damage (1042 overheated) out to 25.2km, also with Rage heavy assault missiles... And the Orthrus does 738 damage (868 overheated) out to 25.2km as well, again with Rage heavy assault missiles. These numbers are with V skills and 4x T2 BCUs.

I'm honestly not sure where some of you are getting your numbers from, but even with +5 implants and Faction BCU's you'll be hard-pressed to break 1000 dps (even overheated) in the Orthrus.

No one with a brain will fly these ships shortrange with Rage HAMs. Everything on that ship screams KITE KITE KITE.

I think the point was more that, even with the highest damage fit possible, the numbers aren't nearly as OP as has been stated.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#583 - 2014-05-14 01:24:06 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
just go an build it in EFT.
Cerb with RLMs Fury, 2 Ballistics, T2 Damagerig and 3 Warrior II is 558 DPS
Orthrus with RLMs Fury, 2 Ballistics, T1 Damagerig and 5 Warrior II is 659 DPS

So either the EFT is broken, or the Cerb is at around 15% lower DPS and significantly lesser speeds. While the DPS is not what matters. What matters is, that you can easily catch the Cerb with Speedcruisers while you cannot catch the Orthrus with anything that survives the approach.


That's because the Cerb has a RoF bonus which empties the RLMLs faster. With any other missile system the DPS is the same.
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#584 - 2014-05-14 01:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Syzygium
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:

I think the point was more that, even with the highest damage fit possible, the numbers aren't nearly as OP as has been stated.

The point is, that you cannot just compare DPS and say "oh looks fine!". You need to compare how these ships are used and how they can apply the damage, how they can survive and how they can dicate the fight.

And on all those fields the orthrus is so much more capable than the Cerb, that it is not even funny. The only scenario where Cerbs might be the better choice is with massive Scimitar/Basi Support in larger Gangs because then is when resist and sig count.

In Smallscale/Solo both does not matter that much. Speed & Damageprojection is what counts. And currently, the Orthrus just outclasses any other ship when it comes to these abilities, by far.

@xe:
Quote:
That's because the Cerb has a RoF bonus which empties the RLMLs faster. With any other missile system the DPS is the same.

Yeah, but why would you want to use any other Missile system on that ship? The RLML brings you perfect damage application any target, a superior fighting range, good DPS and leaves open lots of PG/CPU for other mods.

The additional Range of HMs is rather useless, the higher DPS only applies to bigger targets. And HAMs... well whoever uses HAMs on that ship will face his pod pretty soon because he will be cought by a ceptor/AF and then gangbanged.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#585 - 2014-05-14 01:30:38 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
http://puu.sh/8Kvy8.png

Stealing this from sharpt..

That is pretty much my definition of ******* broken.



With LG snakes, a billion in booster (not to mention the second toon) etc etc.

Looks like the nerf T3 argument, blow two bil on ships boosters and implants .....for a cruiser.....and whine about it being broken.


Balance by cost doesn't really work.

It especially doesn't work when you aren't putting most of your isk at any real risk. These ships are dumb without links. With links they are broken as all hell.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#586 - 2014-05-14 01:35:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
I think the point was more that, even with the highest damage fit possible, the numbers aren't nearly as OP as has been stated.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make.

For starters, a T2 damage rig and a fourth Faction BCU is only going to add a few %; max. Implants will get you another 10-12%, again - max. I get 899 damage with 4x Faction BCUs, a T2 Warhead Calefaction rig and a pair of +5 implants. 1060 overheated. Aside from the fact that damage application is not going to be great against anything other than slowboating cruisers, there's the abysmal range of just over 25km. And we haven't even touched on the fact that this adds close to $750-million to the cost of a supposed PvP fit. So can we stop with the hysteria and theatrics?

The same fit with rapid light launchers will max out at 888 dps (overheated), which in actuality translates to 529 real dps.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#587 - 2014-05-14 01:37:32 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
I think the point was more that, even with the highest damage fit possible, the numbers aren't nearly as OP as has been stated.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make.
For starters, a T2 damage rig and a fourth Faction BCU is only going to add a few %; max. Implants will get you another 10-12%, again - max. I get 899 damage with 4x Faction BCUs, a T2 Warhead Calefaction rig and a pair of +5 implants. 1060 overheated. Aside from the fact that damage application is not going to be great against anything other than slowboating cruisers, there's the abysmal range of just over 25km. And we haven't even touched on the fact that this adds close to $750-million to the cost of a supposed PvP fit. So can we stop with the hysteria and theatrics?

No!
Competitive missiles are bad, mmkay?
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#588 - 2014-05-14 01:38:46 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
I think the point was more that, even with the highest damage fit possible, the numbers aren't nearly as OP as has been stated.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make.
For starters, a T2 damage rig and a fourth Faction BCU is only going to add a few %; max. Implants will get you another 10-12%, again - max. I get 899 damage with 4x Faction BCUs, a T2 Warhead Calefaction rig and a pair of +5 implants. 1060 overheated. Aside from the fact that damage application is not going to be great against anything other than slowboating cruisers, there's the abysmal range of just over 25km. And we haven't even touched on the fact that this adds close to $750-million to the cost of a supposed PvP fit. So can we stop with the hysteria and theatrics?

Congratulations, you just named all the points why no one will use HAMs on that ship. Good that we agree here.

However, you still seem to be unable to understand how kiting ships are flown and why a 400 DPS kiting ship blows the **** out of a 1000 DPS brawler any time it can avoid being catched. Maybe at some point you will.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#589 - 2014-05-14 01:51:23 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
No! Competitive missiles are bad, mmkay?

Here's the reality: For PvP you're going to run T2 launchers, 3x T2 BCU's, a DC and Faction ammunition. You're not going to run flares, rigors or catalyst rigs - it'll be field extenders or trimarks. Maybe a pair of +3 implants. So what are the "real" numbers?

• T2 rapid light missile launchers/Faction ammo ... 534 dps-burst (344 eps-actual)
• T2 heavy missile launchers/Faction ammo ... 453 dps
• T2 heavy assault missile launchers/Faction ammo ... 612 dps

Where on Earth some of you are getting 1200+ dps for a PvP fit is beyond me, because no one in their right mind is going to take a $1-billion plus ship out for sh*ts and giggles. PvE is another matter entirely, but it always is.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#590 - 2014-05-14 01:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Syzygium wrote:
Congratulations, you just named all the points why no one will use HAMs on that ship. Good that we agree here.

However, you still seem to be unable to understand how kiting ships are flown and why a 400 DPS kiting ship blows the **** out of a 1000 DPS brawler any time it can avoid being catched. Maybe at some point you will.

Not Rage heavy assault missiles, anyway. Faction or Javelin are a distinct possibility. Rapid light launchers are most likely going to be the preferred medium of choice for PvP brawling. And I'm not disagreeing about your assessment, but there's a very big difference between an actual 400 dps kiting ship and the 1200+ dps monster that's been suggested. What we've got is a 400-600 dps ship that's not substantial different from the Cerberus or Tengu in terms of damage application.

Pirate ships are not only better than T2 - they're supposed to be better than T2..

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#591 - 2014-05-14 02:12:52 UTC
wtf? did you even read what I wrote?

The problem is neither the damage application nor the speed nor the range, it is the COMBINATION of ALL IN ONE SHIP.

The Cerb has good range, good damage, but can easily be catched by speedcruisers and is then slaughtered in the infight.
The Orthrus cannot and has still all the other advantages.

Comparing the Cerb to the Orthrus is like comparing the Omen to the NavyOmen (which is far superior compared to the Omen, even if DPS and Tank look not so much different).
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#592 - 2014-05-14 02:19:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Syzygium wrote:
wtf? did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, and if the Orthrus was worse than the Cerberus I'd actually be concerned... Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2. In any event, I'm more keen on the Barghest anyway - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Orthrus as proposed. As for the Cerberus, if it sucks, well... "I didn't build the f**king thing."

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rajeet Achmar
Rajeet Achmar Corporation
#593 - 2014-05-14 02:24:39 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
wtf? did you even read what I wrote?

The problem is neither the damage application nor the speed nor the range, it is the COMBINATION of ALL IN ONE SHIP.

The Cerb has good range, good damage, but can easily be catched by speedcruisers and is then slaughtered in the infight.
The Orthrus cannot and has still all the other advantages.

Comparing the Cerb to the Orthrus is like comparing the Omen to the NavyOmen (which is far superior compared to the Omen, even if DPS and Tank look not so much different).


Cant be caught? Today I learned that when engaging a cruiser your required to use a cruiser.

And that you have to use RLMLs 100% of the time.

Also everyone forgets that damage application for missiles sucks, like literally is the worst thing ever, on paper DPS says "500" on a normal PVP fit, and actual applied dps to a target moving at 400-2k (depending on MWD/AB/etc) will be a lot less then the "on paper" DPS.

Explosion radius is no joke.
Rajeet Achmar
Rajeet Achmar Corporation
#594 - 2014-05-14 02:27:22 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

You can download the data files for eft from reddit. I've already put together some fits to check the numbers. Of course there are compromises, but the results are staggering.

The best dps I got from the cruiser was 1200(!!) overheated. This was with t2 hams, 4 faction bcu, t2 damage rig and some implants.

This is a *lot* of damage from a dual Asb tanked cruiser that absolutely dictates range and delivers its massive dps at range.


You can pull that much dps and more out of a vigilant with faction damage mods, t2 rigs, implants, etc, but its going to be an absolute **** pvp ship. A realistic PVP orthus will be putting out 300-600dps depending on skills, which isnt that far fetched considering I can put out that much in some t1 cruisers fit for pvp...
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#595 - 2014-05-14 02:28:12 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Syzygium wrote:
wtf? did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, and if the Orthrus was worse than the Cerberus I'd actually be concerned... Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2. In any event, I'm more keen on the Barghest anyway - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Orthrus as proposed.

In that case you have a very strange understanding of "worse". In a potential duel, the Orthrus just *wipes floor* with the Cerb any time.

Orbit at 40km, Mjolnir Missles and just wait for the Cerb to pop. The Cerb has no way of escape, nor can it break the 40.000 eHP vs Kin that the Orthrus has, because it has only 23.000 eHP vs EM itself. It just goes down without *any* risk for the Orthrus.

But, if that is *worse* in your opinion, I don't want to know what you would see as *equal* or even *better*.

Also, try to name me a SINGLE ship, that can face a kiting Orthrus 1on1, even with the most blingbling available. There is none. All ships that can possibly keep tackle will die long before the Orthrus and all ships that can possibly kill the Orthrus have no chance to hold the tackle, so the Orthrus just leaves the field.
Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#596 - 2014-05-14 02:32:16 UTC
Rajeet Achmar wrote:
Also everyone forgets that damage application for missiles sucks, like literally is the worst thing ever, on paper DPS says "500" on a normal PVP fit, and actual applied dps to a target moving at 400-2k (depending on MWD/AB/etc) will be a lot less then the "on paper" DPS.

Explosion radius is no joke.

The Explosion Radius for Fury Light Missiles is 51... So the damage application against anything that tries to catch the Orthrus is nearly 100%, maybe except boosted Interceptors, which die in 3 shots anyway.

So much for paper DPS.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#597 - 2014-05-14 02:34:20 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Syzygium wrote:
wtf? did you even read what I wrote?

Yes, and if the Orthrus was worse than the Cerberus I'd actually be concerned... Pirate ships are supposed to be better than T2. In any event, I'm more keen on the Barghest anyway - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with the Orthrus as proposed.

In that case you have a very strange understanding of "worse". In a potential duel, the Orthrus just *wipes floor* with the Cerb any time.

Orbit at 40km, Mjolnir Missles and just wait for the Cerb to pop. The Cerb has no way of escape, nor can it break the 40.000 eHP vs Kin that the Orthrus has, because it has only 23.000 eHP vs EM itself. It just goes down without *any* risk for the Orthrus.

But, if that is *worse* in your opinion, I don't want to know what you would see as *equal* or even *better*.

Also, try to name me a SINGLE ship, that can face a kiting Orthrus 1on1, even with the most blingbling available. There is none. All ships that can possibly keep tackle will die long before the Orthrus and all ships that can possibly kill the Orthrus have no chance to hold the tackle, so the Orthrus just leaves the field.


Uh, you realize the Ishtar is a thing, right? Someone posted a HML fit claiming 400 DPS at 80km is broken. Well, the Ishtar does 600 dps at that range with near perfect application too.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#598 - 2014-05-14 02:36:23 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
http://puu.sh/8Kvy8.png

Stealing this from sharpt..

That is pretty much my definition of ******* broken.



With LG snakes, a billion in booster (not to mention the second toon) etc etc.

Looks like the nerf T3 argument, blow two bil on ships boosters and implants .....for a cruiser.....and whine about it being broken.


Balance by cost doesn't really work.

It especially doesn't work when you aren't putting most of your isk at any real risk. These ships are dumb without links. With links they are broken as all hell.


So you are saying that you can't accomplish something similar with HACs or T3s in the same price range, speically when you are willing to dump 2 billion into things that aren't the hull?
JEFFRAIDER
THIGH GUYS
#599 - 2014-05-14 02:38:44 UTC
guys i'm really passionate about eve but i know nothing about fittings or pvp or anything

types furiously
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#600 - 2014-05-14 02:42:41 UTC
Syzygium wrote:
But, if that is *worse* in your opinion, I don't want to know what you would see as *equal* or even *better*.

It's not that I think the Cerberus is worse... it's just that I don't care.
What was it many of you said when missiles got nerfed last year? HTFU... The irony hasn't escaped me. Lol

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.