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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#121 - 2014-05-09 19:51:48 UTC
Ultimate Tales wrote:
So... 30km from timer... all farmer now will stay on 29km far away from timer structure, when they see some1 on scan they will move 500meters and cloak. nice fix... actually you remove ability for ppl who sit inside in plex and hunt for farmers. Before I can jump inside plex in cloak and kill damn stabed/cloaked farmer. now cant if I wasnt jump inside before them. Still he will run cause is stabbed... Just block entrance with wcs ships if they arent stealth ships like | astero/stealth bomber/cover ops |. You fix nothing CCP. Shame on you, FW still ****** up totally for ppl who want fight. You create zone for farmers with cloak/warp stabs. You are farming on customers like they farming LP...

I quit FW today, nothing to do there.

ps. sorry for my bad english, that isnt my primary language :P


just make the no-cloak zone much larger than the cap zone.
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#122 - 2014-05-09 19:56:57 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
just make the no-cloak zone much larger than the cap zone.


Yes, but why would we want to exclude cloak-capable combat ships from the warzone? The current change is bad enough, making the no-cloak zone large enough to actually matter is going to ruin cloaky combat in its entirety.
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#123 - 2014-05-09 20:00:54 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
First off that's an excellent post Bienator.

Secondly there should be no reason for a sec loss inside a plex. Activating the gate doesn't have to make you a suspect. Just make it so there is no adjustments to your sec status when you engage in a plex. It is a huge disadvantage to wait until the pirate has dictated range and fired the first shot before I attack. FW pilots should not be penalized for defending themselves against an aggressive act. And entering a plex is an aggressive act.

(unless they are just entering to hold a nice conversation with you about your ship of choice. In that case, hi pirate how are you doing!?)


if he's a pirate then you can attack whenever. spawning and entering a plex in my system is an aggressive act, more like.


I think there's a concern about giving someone a suspect timer for entering a plex. You enter a plex and then you can be freely engaged anywhere without firing a shot? It'd be better to keep a free-fire zone inside the plex then be punished for the next 15 minutes.

And just because he's not flashy red doesn't mean he's not a pirate :p
xa666
Instruments of Discipline
#124 - 2014-05-09 20:04:41 UTC
Ultimate Tales wrote:
So... 30km from timer... all farmer now will stay on 29km far away from timer structure, when they see some1 on scan they will move 500meters and cloak. nice fix... actually you remove ability for ppl who sit inside in plex and hunt for farmers. Before I can jump inside plex in cloak and kill damn stabed/cloaked farmer. Now cant if I wasnt jump inside before them. Still they will run cause are stabbed... Just block entrance with wcs/cloak if they arent stealth ships like | astero/stealth bomber/cover ops |. You fix nothing CCP. Shame on you, FW still ****** up totally for ppl who want fight. You create zone for farmers with cloak/warp stabs. You are farming on customers like they farming LP...

I quit FW today, nothing to do there.

ps. sorry for my bad english, that isnt my primary language :P




Yeah! Koza has already left militia today. We can still shooting farmers from behind :p
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#125 - 2014-05-09 20:04:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Cloaking prevention within capture range

Yes, this is a good idea.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to keep the LP stealing viable while doing some changes to pretend we're doing something meaningful.

FTFY.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
These are obviously not the only changes we could make to improve FW and they are not the only changes we want to make as we move forward, but we still believe that this package of complex improvements will benefit FW significantly.
We look forward to hearing your feedback!

I'm looking forward to see the rest of the FW changes, and hopefully one of them will be reduction of LP from idle orbiting and a substantial increase of LP gained by killing pilots of opposing militias and also pirates.

I'm also looking forward to a solution for popular plexing fits such as this.

Perhaps it should be looked at this way.

Simply sitting within capture range = a very slow rate of capture.

Actively engaged in combat with an NPC within the capture zone = higher rate of capture.

I suppose you could even go to the extent of saying:

Actively engaged in combat with a player(s) of the owning faction = fastest rate of capture (assuming you survive that long)... although this last could very well be exploited.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#126 - 2014-05-09 20:10:34 UTC
Angelus Ryan wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
just make the no-cloak zone much larger than the cap zone.


Yes, but why would we want to exclude cloak-capable combat ships from the warzone? The current change is bad enough, making the no-cloak zone large enough to actually matter is going to ruin cloaky combat in its entirety.


because cloaks are not honour. once cloaks and links are gone, things will be better.
Heinel Sidewind
Power-Hug Training Bootcamp
#127 - 2014-05-09 20:24:47 UTC
People who complain about cloak or stabs are missing the mark entirely. When I farmed FW, my ship had neither cloak nor stab. It was a pure glass/align fit slicer for killing the rat asap for max isk/hr and dodging gate camps.

Nevermind the fact that if all you see are farmers, then you are in the wrong system, but reducing the number of farmers does NOT increase the number of pvpers. The existence of farmers actually creates content for pirates and gankers. We're having fun. You're not. If you have done it right to begin with, you wouldn't be complaining here.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#128 - 2014-05-09 20:48:37 UTC
I think the respawn rats should not be faction but rather aggress anyone in the plex regardless of faction. They will give me, a neutral, an unacceptable edge in 1v1. Frigate fights are often extremely close. Just don't give the rats a bounty.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#129 - 2014-05-09 21:14:19 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Cloaking prevention within capture range
To help ensure balance around cloak use in FW complexes, we are disallowing cloaking within 30km of the capture point. This is achieved through an inert beacon with a 30km radius, so that when you are within capture range of the point you are also always 0km from an object.

We received some requests at Fanfest to increase this radius farther, which we will consider after we have seen how this first change plays out. One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to make hunting viable.



Well let's see how to begin...
First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eleventh, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

/me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again



Agreed. I enjoy baiting daredevils and killing then with a Rapier. Just make it so cloak fits cant cap. If im using a covert ops its for killing and not farming. This also stops us from using multi scram manticores to catch farmers
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#130 - 2014-05-09 21:14:37 UTC
I am honestly curious how cloaking in range of the beacon is so overpowered that it must have a block, yet warp core stabs are not considered an issue.

CCP Fozzie wrote:

I want to make it clear that these changes are intended to create a more interesting environment for FW plexing and to make pvp fits more competitive with "farming" fits on an lp/hr scale, but are not intended to somehow bring an end to "farming" or other evasion tactics. We have no intention of hard blocking warp core stabs or cloaks from complexes. Players should have tools to help mitigate risk, as long as those tools require tradeoffs.


Trade off for using stabs?


  • Less low slots otherwise available
  • Reduced lock range and time
  • CPU usage


For the actual use of WCS, are these actually trades? Do the typical or even significant minority of FW WCS users actually face a challenge with the decreased lock time and range? Is the CPU cost honestly enough to make them question the fitting or lose something meaningful to them? Can it really be said that the cost of the low slot and fitting makes the use of WCS an honest decision, or are they merely a hindrance on par with the inability for a caldari FW pilot to undock an Iteron V from Dodixie, nominal at best.

What is removing cloak within beacon range changing that isn't also impacted to a similar degree by WCS? My confusion is doubled by the comment that the range of the no-cloak zone means one can still sit behind the warp in spot at a reasonable distance for cloaking traps - if they're not the issue, what is?

With regards to the NPC respawn, I would suggest their timer extended to at least half the time for a plex of that size to be captured, but with an instant respawn should the plex become abandoned by all parties. With the current design, a frigate in a novice will have to remove a minimum of four NPCs throughout their time in the plex, with an average of 5 and potentially 7 NPCs to remove. A kiting ship struggles to begin with as the NPC can always chase them down, the reduce damage of a kiting fit struggling harder still and then anything buffer fit has to deal with diminished buffer as a result. Heaven forbid the timer is partially completed in the opposite direction! In a typical site, this means going from 1 enemy per site at 100% damage to 4-7 enemies each doing 60% damage minimum, in itself a large increase in damage done. Improved tanking factor and lesser damage reduction raises the bar further!

One additional mitigation to the relative balance of the NPC here (taking they are meant to be a minimum size mediator, not a significant combat aid) would be to make them ceasefire once an allied pilot warps into the site, only to resume if the pilot leaves. None the less, the buffer fit ship suffers as a result.

A final consideration, to assist in the reduction of NPC impact would be instead of timer adjustment from the originally posted, make the NPC damage very low and application horrendous. This would allow almost any well piloted ship to get below the NPC weapons, but still require a minimum damage output to continue capture of the plex, with greater damage output still being rewarded with quicker dispatch.

In short (for quoting):

1) What makes cloak so powerful in beacon range, while warp core stabs are considered suitable in their tradeoff for those who use them?

2) Is the appearance of almost half a dozen NPCs each plex necessary to limit minimum ship/fleet size? Is this considering:
- the impact on anaemic kiting damage,
- the relative inability for kiting ships to mitigate these NPCs damage due to NPCs being able to catch up
- the impact this has on buffer fit ships.

3) Consider the potential solutions to 2 such as:
- Reducing enemy respawn rate (with potential instant respawn on site abandonment
- Make the NPC ceasefire if an allied pilot is in the plex
- Make the NPC damage and application poor, creating a soft limit based only on damage output, not sustained tank.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#131 - 2014-05-09 21:18:15 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Cloaking prevention within capture range

Yes, this is a good idea.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to keep the LP stealing viable while doing some changes to pretend we're doing something meaningful.

FTFY.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
These are obviously not the only changes we could make to improve FW and they are not the only changes we want to make as we move forward, but we still believe that this package of complex improvements will benefit FW significantly.
We look forward to hearing your feedback!

I'm looking forward to see the rest of the FW changes, and hopefully one of them will be reduction of LP from idle orbiting and a substantial increase of LP gained by killing pilots of opposing militias and also pirates.

I'm also looking forward to a solution for popular plexing fits such as this.

Perhaps it should be looked at this way.

Simply sitting within capture range = a very slow rate of capture.

Actively engaged in combat with an NPC within the capture zone = higher rate of capture.

I suppose you could even go to the extent of saying:

Actively engaged in combat with a player(s) of the owning faction = fastest rate of capture (assuming you survive that long)... although this last could very well be exploited.


My alt made capping much easier. Thanks
Xavier Thorm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2014-05-09 21:52:19 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
~a good, rational post~


CCP, hire this guy.
Thorin Matarielle
The All-Seeing Eye
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#133 - 2014-05-09 23:00:47 UTC
Xavier Thorm wrote:
Bienator II wrote:
~a good, rational post~


CCP, hire this guy.



Comment of the day! Pirate
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#134 - 2014-05-09 23:19:18 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
the most effective way to play the game will remain 'boring away the other player'

this makes a bad game.

I second that

I just gave your 20000th like. How you got that many I have no idea.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#135 - 2014-05-09 23:29:14 UTC
Alright, here's my take on this:

-Large outposts. Glad you fixed the spawn rate, but I am displeased that you didn't give them a gate. I would very much like to see battlecruisers used more heavily in fw lowsec for plex work, and am disheartened by the fact that the large complexes still are not going to follow the same warfare guidelines that normal plexes do. The fact that you have a gate to act as a doorway to see who is outside, and moreover preventing cloakers from dropping on you all the time, is a GOOD thing. The old plex system had that as an advantage despite all its flaws, and I am sorely disappointed that this has not been addressed.

-NPC spawning changes. I am somewhat mystified over the npc nerf. While the increased spawn rate is good, weren't you trying to move more towards merging the pve and pvp in these situations with how the rats are designed? Would it not make more sense to field some very strong elites in the plex that would cause serious issue for freeloaders? Shouldn't you at least ENCOURAGE people to fit for combat?

-Cloaking prevention within capture range. This is a good thing. Fights should happen either on the gate, or in a chase or dogfight that progressively takes fast ships off the beacon. Apart from fleets or the occasional hunting arazu or pilgrim, there is no good reason to bring a cloaky ship to a plex if you are trying to get a fight.
Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#136 - 2014-05-10 02:42:58 UTC
Would also like to see gate on large plex.

Cloaking radius limits I dislike intensely - cloaks inside the plex are useful for PVE and PVP. I firmly believe you are destroying gameplay options for both sets of players here. Please reconsider.

Is there a particular reason that the often repeated requests for timer rollbacks (which appears to have a large amount of support from the FW community) seem to be ignored. Is it just too hard to implement? Maybe I missed an official CCP response to this somewhere?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#137 - 2014-05-10 03:12:59 UTC
Silverbackyererse wrote:
Would also like to see gate on large plex.

Cloaking radius limits I dislike intensely - cloaks inside the plex are useful for PVE and PVP. I firmly believe you are destroying gameplay options for both sets of players here. Please reconsider.

Is there a particular reason that the often repeated requests for timer rollbacks (which appears to have a large amount of support from the FW community) seem to be ignored. Is it just too hard to implement? Maybe I missed an official CCP response to this somewhere?




I've gone into hundreds of plexes in the last year.. I have twice been attacked by cloaky hunters but i've run into countless farmers that cloak up. The "You are hurting pvp options" arguement is kinda bullshit.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Mirta Vanderkill
Sgt. Holtman's Heroes
#138 - 2014-05-10 03:21:31 UTC
Would there be any chance of getting a gated large plex that only allows BC/BS size ships? It would be nice to have an 'arena' that allows for larger class PVP without risking a frigate blob.
Nyjil Lizaru
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#139 - 2014-05-10 04:33:51 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Silverbackyererse wrote:
Would also like to see gate on large plex.

Cloaking radius limits I dislike intensely - cloaks inside the plex are useful for PVE and PVP. I firmly believe you are destroying gameplay options for both sets of players here. Please reconsider.

Is there a particular reason that the often repeated requests for timer rollbacks (which appears to have a large amount of support from the FW community) seem to be ignored. Is it just too hard to implement? Maybe I missed an official CCP response to this somewhere?




I've gone into hundreds of plexes in the last year.. I have twice been attacked by cloaky hunters but i've run into countless farmers that cloak up. The "You are hurting pvp options" arguement is kinda bullshit.


Not trying to blow smoke up your posterior, but cloaky hunters who uncloak on a Shadow Cartel pilot in a plex are either dumb, bored, or suicidal - they aren't fit to fight you in most cases, too much is lost by the dual scram of the anti-WCS fit to take a 'normal' fight.

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
Abs Sciuto
Tail Spin Corp
Proxima Centauri Alliance
#140 - 2014-05-10 04:53:20 UTC
hi fozzy


I believe you don't understand fw problems, when you create non-cloak area. I think you should make warp core stabilizer active module, which requires skills on the both side of monitor. yes, it's usefull thing, but I'd like to create some gameplay around it, instead of passive and flavorless fitting.