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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#601 - 2014-06-20 10:16:14 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Actually the warp-in beacon is a Large Collidable Object called "Beacon". The other beacon called "Faction Size Outpost" or whatever is the one currently colocated with the button. This allows them to adjust the size of the cloak exclusion zone while keeping the capture radius of the button the same.

Add LCOs to your overview and you'll be able to see the warpin beacon on your overview again.

So people can still sit cloaked within 30km from the actual outpost?

I'm my own NPC alt.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#602 - 2014-06-20 10:21:30 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

Actually the warp-in beacon is a Large Collidable Object called "Beacon". The other beacon called "Faction Size Outpost" or whatever is the one currently colocated with the button. This allows them to adjust the size of the cloak exclusion zone while keeping the capture radius of the button the same.

Add LCOs to your overview and you'll be able to see the warpin beacon on your overview again.

So people can still sit cloaked within 30km from the actual outpost?
Yes, but that would put you between 30 and 60km from the warp-in beacon.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#603 - 2014-06-20 10:47:12 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

Actually the warp-in beacon is a Large Collidable Object called "Beacon". The other beacon called "Faction Size Outpost" or whatever is the one currently colocated with the button. This allows them to adjust the size of the cloak exclusion zone while keeping the capture radius of the button the same.

Add LCOs to your overview and you'll be able to see the warpin beacon on your overview again.

So people can still sit cloaked within 30km from the actual outpost?
Yes, but that would put you between 30 and 60km from the warp-in beacon.

But what was the point then for the change?

I'm my own NPC alt.
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#604 - 2014-06-23 01:19:37 UTC
PLEASE CCP

When are you going to reduce this stupid amount of respawns in plexes?


7 spawns in a Small Outpost is ridicious.
2 or 3 spawns is more then enough.
The new NPC's were implemented to do a dps check so stabbed frigates cant run them anymore, but as it is now
You need to bring thousands of rounds of ammo.

This change is over the top.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#605 - 2014-06-23 07:38:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Madbuster73 wrote:
PLEASE CCP

When are you going to reduce this stupid amount of respawns in plexes?


7 spawns in a Small Outpost is ridicious.
2 or 3 spawns is more then enough.
The new NPC's were implemented to do a dps check so stabbed frigates cant run them anymore, but as it is now
You need to bring thousands of rounds of ammo.

This change is over the top.


Seems someone has fw plexing alt^^
But honestly this has made fw static. Amarr and caldari will stay forever in T1 probably because defensive pexing is easy like hell and offensive plexing pain in da a...
Somehow CCP screws fw more and more with every "fix" :)

Edit: Plz CCP fix it because I have 2 unemployed fw mission running toons :D
Minnie lp is not worth farming any more, gallente is not farmable and cal+amarr will stay forever T1 with these changes.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#606 - 2014-06-23 08:32:08 UTC
These new spawn rates are a little off the mark. As a brawler, I have to be sitting on the warp in to make sure I even have a chance to catch a kiter as they come in; however, every time there is a spawn the rat spawns 10km from the warp-in (i.e. near the button) and then tries to stay about 11km away from you. I'm constantly being pulled 15km+ off the warp-in to kill the rat quickly, then I have to AB back to the warp-in and rinse and repeat less than 2mins later...

In addition to the number of spawns, the amount of incoming DPS from the rats is also a little crazy. If you're going to be forcing 7-8 spawns every plex, then the incoming DPS needs to be cut down by at least half. The number of rats are seriously starting to affect PvP in a negative way. Many of the losmails from my corpmates are showing 25-33% damage taken from the rats, and there's a spawn almost always right before or right at the start of a fight, and it's game changing in a fight where you usually win by a slim margin. I was under the impression that these rats were not supposed to interfere with PvP Cry


Also, the cloak blocking is pointless. The bots are still cloaking in sites. Now the bot hunters (since CCP does **** all for banning bots anyways) have no tools to actually catch the bots. As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, my recons are completely useless in plex fighting and solo hunting real pvp ships due to the enormous range restrictions. Again, a silly change that is just breaking FW even more. Give us our COVERT CLOAKS back!!!!!!!

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Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#607 - 2014-06-23 10:02:45 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
These new spawn rates are a little off the mark. As a brawler, I have to be sitting on the warp in to make sure I even have a chance to catch a kiter as they come in; however, every time there is a spawn the rat spawns 10km from the warp-in (i.e. near the button) and then tries to stay about 11km away from you. I'm constantly being pulled 15km+ off the warp-in to kill the rat quickly, then I have to AB back to the warp-in and rinse and repeat less than 2mins later...

In addition to the number of spawns, the amount of incoming DPS from the rats is also a little crazy. If you're going to be forcing 7-8 spawns every plex, then the incoming DPS needs to be cut down by at least half. The number of rats are seriously starting to affect PvP in a negative way. Many of the losmails from my corpmates are showing 25-33% damage taken from the rats, and there's a spawn almost always right before or right at the start of a fight, and it's game changing in a fight where you usually win by a slim margin. I was under the impression that these rats were not supposed to interfere with PvP Cry


Also, the cloak blocking is pointless. The bots are still cloaking in sites. Now the bot hunters (since CCP does **** all for banning bots anyways) have no tools to actually catch the bots. As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, my recons are completely useless in plex fighting and solo hunting real pvp ships due to the enormous range restrictions. Again, a silly change that is just breaking FW even more. Give us our COVERT CLOAKS back!!!!!!!



When CCP will allow Covert Cloaking in plexes, all you will see is stealth bombers running plexes. is that what you want?

The cloaking change was good, but the NPC respawn rate is way too much. It is interfering with pvp and you have to shoot more NPC's then if you were doing a FW Mission.

About that, the minmatar missions are ridicilously easy hence why they keep it at Tier 4 and make billions a day by orbiting a mission in their Stealthbomber at 90k.

If CCP Fixes FW Missions and makes them less profitable and more difficult then plexes that would help FW a lot.
That doesnt mean the plexes are in a good place now, the respawn really needs to go down or people will get bored of shooting so many NPC's....
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#608 - 2014-06-23 15:54:36 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:


When CCP will allow Covert Cloaking in plexes, all you will see is stealth bombers running plexes. is that what you want?



Stealth bombers are squishy and aren't that cheap.
I would be ok with it.
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#609 - 2014-06-23 22:23:52 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:


When CCP will allow Covert Cloaking in plexes, all you will see is stealth bombers running plexes. is that what you want?



Stealth bombers are squishy and aren't that cheap.
I would be ok with it.


Sure you will....
And everybody else would be whining about bots that cloak up as soon as you land at the acceleration gate.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#610 - 2014-06-24 07:58:56 UTC
Just went to good old fw lowsec and got a good laugh.
Like I said: Everyone defplexs with bots like mad and offensive plexing stabbed catalyst bots everywhere while peeps triplebox bombers in fw misions. Mad mad mad mad mad....
Defplexing is so easy that offplexing against it is almost impossible. Seems this is the end with back and forth of tiers.
Republic Fleet Firetails for 2mil in few months? They are already at 7mil... lol
CCP somehow doesn´t get it managed. Rofl.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#611 - 2014-06-24 08:19:55 UTC
Add pirate factions to FW \o/

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.
Madbuster73
State War Academy
Caldari State
#612 - 2014-06-24 09:39:21 UTC
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Just went to good old fw lowsec and got a good laugh.
Like I said: Everyone defplexs with bots like mad and offensive plexing stabbed catalyst bots everywhere while peeps triplebox bombers in fw misions. Mad mad mad mad mad....
Defplexing is so easy that offplexing against it is almost impossible. Seems this is the end with back and forth of tiers.
Republic Fleet Firetails for 2mil in few months? They are already at 7mil... lol
CCP somehow doesn´t get it managed. Rofl.


Yes, they didnt balance it very well.

Offensive plexing takes 2 times as long now + a shitload of ammo and you have to kill 7-8 ships in a small.
While Defensive plexing at Tier 4 is then more profitable and easier.

Please reduce the respawning in plexes 2-3 instead of 7-8.
This many spawns is interfering with pvp and you need insane amounts of ammo.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#613 - 2014-06-24 12:23:38 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Just went to good old fw lowsec and got a good laugh.
Like I said: Everyone defplexs with bots like mad and offensive plexing stabbed catalyst bots everywhere while peeps triplebox bombers in fw misions. Mad mad mad mad mad....
Defplexing is so easy that offplexing against it is almost impossible. Seems this is the end with back and forth of tiers.
Republic Fleet Firetails for 2mil in few months? They are already at 7mil... lol
CCP somehow doesn´t get it managed. Rofl.


Yes, they didnt balance it very well.

Offensive plexing takes 2 times as long now + a shitload of ammo and you have to kill 7-8 ships in a small.
While Defensive plexing at Tier 4 is then more profitable and easier.

Please reduce the respawning in plexes 2-3 instead of 7-8.
This many spawns is interfering with pvp and you need insane amounts of ammo.






Yep. I think they must have thought up the multiple spawns as the counter to cloaking and then decided it was not enough and added the ban to cloaks within range as an additional measure??!!!


There should be no more than 4 spawns during the time it takes to run an uncontested plex down. Increasing the gap on separate spawns would appear to be clear now.

In addition, I think the HP should be changed on the NPC spawn so that once you break the tank it pops. It should have nominal amounts of HP other than in the tank. Once you break the tank, pop. ie- You have demonstrated you can kill it and so it is gone.

Minmatar / Caldari NPC = Enough Shield HP for the tank to work against alpha with low dps. A notional amount of armor and hull so that once the shield tank is broken it pops.

Amarr / Gallente NPC = Enough Armor HP for the tank to work with a notional amount of negligible Shield and hull so that once again it pops once the active tank is beaten.



I don't agree with the "fix" they have devised for cloaking either. Personally I think they should have tried for an alternative to a blanket cloaking ban. (I would not ban covert ops cloaks).

I would have tried a structure as follows:

Watch Tower

Situated at 10km from the Beacon in front of the complex "bunker". Locks all targets on entry into the plex. Lock time is approximately 30s (enough time for cloakers to cloak). However, if someone is trying to capture the complex then they need to remain uncloaked and this will be sufficient time for the target lock from the Watch Tower to hit (will need to balance scan resolution on the tower for Frigs in Novice, Dessies in Small, Cruisers in medium and above).

The Watch Tower will have high HP enough, that it will take a properly fitted ship as long to kill as it would to kill say 3-4 spawns (but no repping just a passive HP).

Watch Tower - target paints the target when lock is established. Target Painting a 0.5% (yes half a percent) increased to signature (a nominal amount). Maybe just a lock is sufficient.


Result:
Cloaking hunters can warp into a complex and cloak up before locked and wait in ambush. They will only decloak when they attack their prey.
Lazy Ar*e farmers will have to either try to destroy the tower (they will need to bring dps required to churn through this and remain uncloaked for a time) or they will need to give up on cloaking once they have decided they want to contest/capture the system.


As for the imbalance from Offensive and Defensive plexing:

It is clear to me that the bonus's applied to the Tier levels are too far spread.

I think it should be more like:

Tier 1 - 75%
Tier 2 - 100%
Tier 3 - 120%
Tier 4 - 140%
Tier 5 - 160%

Something around these figures, the current gap is too large. There should be reward for holding the higher sovereignty but, not such a huge payout or huge penalty, that many will just simply choose a side with high tier as that has the only reasonable pay out of LP.

Then some work needs to be done on ihubs, ranks and the reward system for FW kills.... ...tbc...

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2014-06-24 12:36:30 UTC
Madbuster73 wrote:
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
Madbuster73 wrote:


When CCP will allow Covert Cloaking in plexes, all you will see is stealth bombers running plexes. is that what you want?



Stealth bombers are squishy and aren't that cheap.
I would be ok with it.


Sure you will....
And everybody else would be whining about bots that cloak up as soon as you land at the acceleration gate.





I wasn't whining about the bots. They don't effect my view of the warzone. And besides, there were already countless real players who had developed fits to counter the bots program. Most bot programs will decloak once you "leave scan" so you just come in and cloak up. Wait a few and the bot will uncloak. Only this time, you have to invest a reasonable amount of SP to properly fly a Stealth Bomber and you also have to put a 20mil+ ship on the line.

Both of those are incentive enough to not bot in. If you want to farm in them than that's okay. It's not different than the semi-afk farmer or extremely risk averse players who just warp when you enter the plex. Nothing changes there. The cloaking ban was the biggest nerf to real players that EvE has committed in quite some time. Recons and bombers aren't OP by any means and there was never a need to completely take them out of FW plexes.

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Syd Unknown
#615 - 2014-06-24 19:49:28 UTC
Yun, your Recon ships can only get in mediums, so nothing much is lost.
There are 3 more plex-sizes, you can still get your Recon cloaked at the Larges,
and in the novice and small you couldnt get it in anyway.


Changes were fine except for the ridicilous amount of respawns....


Reduce Respawns please CCP....
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#616 - 2014-06-26 03:31:39 UTC
Alright, I wanted to document this so everybody can see.

http://imgur.com/i9SnSn4

Each of the red squares was a NPC rat. There were 7 of them within a 15 minute time period. I used more than 600 rounds of Antimatter. It's a good thing I'm not using faction ammo to kill rats because that would be such a waste of money.

Each of the rats spawn 10km from you, then they try to maintain that distance. This is a problem for blaster boats, which means you have get within range in order to kill them. Each of those NPC rats are at least 20km away from the button, some are 30km from it.

Six rats within 15 minutes and some are dead 30km off the button? You spend stupid amounts of time just flying out to kill the rats then flying back tot he beacon spamming d-scan hoping nobody warps in while you were killing a rat.

In addition, the rapid fire spawn of the npc rats means I was always at least missing 400 shield hp. 400 hp is nothing to laugh at, especially in close dessie and frigate fights.

Things need to change.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#617 - 2014-06-26 04:16:05 UTC
Syd Unknown wrote:
Yun, your Recon ships can only get in mediums, so nothing much is lost.
There are 3 more plex-sizes, you can still get your Recon cloaked at the Larges,
and in the novice and small you couldnt get it in anyway.


Changes were fine except for the ridicilous amount of respawns....


Reduce Respawns please CCP....



Tell how many recons or bombers you've seen now in a medium or a large plex? I haven't seen any, not even a falcon warping at a 100km. I mean I guess banning cloaks is working as intended. Good thing they're going to rebalance Recons next on the list and then we won't be able to use them....

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#618 - 2014-06-29 14:05:24 UTC
The plex changes have lead to a well documented and substantial decrease in pvp. But why?

In the past if I am in say a t1 frigate i might be willing to fight afs or destroyers or even a cruiser. Now however if I try to go into an enemy plex that those other ships are allowed to go in I will have an unkillable mwding rat forever doing extra damage to me. No thanks.

I think the solution is to have the rats not aggro you until you aggro them. That way these changes will still reduce farming (because you have to kill the rat for the timer to run) but not ruin the pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Aiphona
Alien Mindbenders
#619 - 2014-06-30 14:54:42 UTC
Cearain wrote:
The plex changes have lead to a well documented and substantial decrease in pvp. But why?

In the past if I am in say a t1 frigate i might be willing to fight afs or destroyers or even a cruiser. Now however if I try to go into an enemy plex that those other ships are allowed to go in I will have an unkillable mwding rat forever doing extra damage to me. No thanks.

I think the solution is to have the rats not aggro you until you aggro them. That way these changes will still reduce farming (because you have to kill the rat for the timer to run) but not ruin the pvp.



Having to kill 7 NPC totally unbalances Offensive Plexing vs Defensive Plexing.
Look at the FW sov changes.
It is too hard to do offensive now and it is too easy to defensive plexing.
Warzone control is at a stalemate now.

Defensive Plexing at Tier 4 (like Minmatar is now) is more profitable and easier then Offensive at Tier 2.

this means no one is gonna bother doing offensive anymore and will completely stop fighting over systems.
The lucky ones are the ones that have the most systems at the moment and it will probably stay that way. Although the LP is getting useless since Minmater can easily make 1 bill per hour running lvl 4 missions in a stealtbomber.
Missions are too easy and Offensive is too hard.

having to killl 7 NPC's in a small is just way too much. Reduce it to 2 or 3 at least.

Or another idea is: make the NPC neutral and call them Guardians. and make that you have to shoot them for offensive AND defensive plexing..
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#620 - 2014-06-30 15:05:38 UTC
Aiphona wrote:

Warzone control is at a stalemate now.
We took Heydieles a couple weeks ago. It took LESS time than in previous offensives because more plexes are now available.

What's not flipping as quickly (if at all) are the far off backwater systems with less time zone coverage. But they can be flipped pretty easily if you have 3-6 guys coordinate across a few timezones. Squids did it in Mantenault and Okagaiken.

The benefits to this updated version of FW is that a small group of players can now colonize a nearly empty part of the map and live there without fear of farmers pushing them out. This is not a bad thing.