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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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spoon Nardieu
Pyke Syndicate
Solyaris Chtonium
#261 - 2014-05-14 01:57:27 UTC
I'd also like to see customs office and pos ownership restricted to the faction in control of the system. There are plenty of non-fw systems for non-FW groups. This will add a LOT more value to taking systems, teamwork and co-operation among FW corps. This will open a lot of much needed corp/alliance income for FW groups for ship replacement programs, logistics, ect. FW should be a place for pvp corps to grow and be nurtured.

First off, poses, and pocos are fair game to all. Gal mil corps put up poses in systems they plan on taking, put up boosting poses, or at least they used to before the boosting changes, and Cal mil does the same thing. If your corp or alliance cares about pocos or poses, you should defend them or take them from someone else. While FW is a place to learn PVP, and make isk at the same time. There are plenty of groups that live in that same part of space that exist to hunt FW groups. Black rise has the best PVP in the game.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2014-05-14 03:35:25 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I think stabs are a much bigger problem than cloaks in FW.
If people are regularly fitting warp core stabilizers to their ships and still farming lootz (and I have it on good authority that they are), then maybe the sites are too weak.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Themis Eostrea
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2014-05-14 04:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Themis Eostrea
Much as I find defending farming distasteful, having read this thread in its entirety I believe it to be necessary. Farming, while granting access to large amounts of isk very easily, and frustrating the living hell out of everyone who came to the warzone for PvP, also serves a purpose. That purpose is the continued dynamism of the warzone.

Because of the way sov mechanics in FW work, there is no way to take a system other than grinding plexes. Anyone who has participated in a campaign to take a major system can tell you how mind-numbingly boring this can be. While in major systems this activity can lead to consistent fights and great PvP, the backwaters are rarely contested. Experienced FW denizens know that when the backwaters start getting contested, the farmers have changed sides and the warzone is going to flip. It is the farmers that cause the back and forth in the warzone, not PvP corps / alliances.

If there were no farmers, PvP groups would have to grind their way through every system when trying to gain warzone control, and the vast majority of our time would be spent orbiting beacons and killing rats. While people have been complaining about the negatives of farming, this is the positive side. I didn't sign up for FW to run plexes all damn day, and the farmers actually prevent me from having to do that. So, I consider their existence a necessary evil to be managed.

If you want to really get rid of farmers, change the sov mechanics so that farming is not a necessary part of what ought to be a PvP play style. For those of us who live in and love the warzone, we will find the money to keep fighting, as those activities are what brought us and keep us here.

The farmers will always adapt to whatever cursory changes you make to the system, and so long as the system requires farming-style gameplay to function, nothing will ever change.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#264 - 2014-05-14 04:48:38 UTC
Please. Systems were pushed and warzone control ebbed and flowed a long time before Inferno and the farming hordes. What we have right now is not dynamism- it's exhaustion. On the Amarr/ Minmatar front one side is tier four and the other is tier one. Flip every three months. Many of the veterans don't even log on anymore. Groups should be spread throughout the warzone. They can't do that because farmers will literally farm the systems out from under them while they sleep. Living in Egg and sallying forth once a day is not what FW is supposed to be.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#265 - 2014-05-14 07:46:05 UTC
What about taking away the bunker orbiting and adding NPCs that must be defeated to complete the site? Ensure that there is a 30 minute time to complete by having two ten-minute reinforcement waves. Have the site despawn if a wave is spawned but not attacked for ten minutes. Pay out the same as incursions: reward cooperation rather than penalising it.

Thus there are no timers to count down/up/reset, the attacker must be combat fit, and the defender can actually defend (e.g.: logistics support to NPCs, or simply scare off the attacker). Make sure some of the NPCs can scram/disrupt and we're golden!

Short version: turn FW plexes into incursion plexes with timed spawns.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
per
Terpene Conglomerate
#266 - 2014-05-14 07:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: per
Veskrashen wrote:

Part of their intent is to ensure that it's accessible for newer players. Mandating the use of cruisers+ for half the plexes kinda runs counter to that.

well newer players will still be able do novices and small plexes easily with almost zero skills in frigates and if they are not able to do med and large plexes i'm quite ok with that, its same with battleships you just don't put newbies into them because we all know how that ends


huge problem i see with novices and small plexes is that they count for same amount of contest in system as med and larges do .. novices should have much smaller impact than large plexes in terms of system contest, in current system novices are far superior in terms of flipping system and that's the problem farmers causing here, same for pvp guys why take bigger ships if we can take frigates and be happy in novice/small plexes no big urge to fight in med or even large as it takes much more time and the reward(no i'm not talking about lp here) is same or worse ... but well this might be for next changes, let's solve farmers first and no its not via banning cloaks
i dont mind farmers being stabbed or cloaked i do mind that they doing plexes almost risk free (wheres your risk vs reward in this?) while screwing pvp guys that have to defend systems against never ending horders of afk farmers
as bienator said you are treating symptoms here not what causes them

Major Trant wrote:

I've killed a dozen stabbed cloaky farmers in the last few weeks with an Asteros. While you have to be decloaked on the gate, you can recloak before you land with a good chance you won't land within 2Kms of the beacon. Even if they see you on short scan they don't know if you came in or whether you warped out again. Five minutes tops is all you have to wait. Then burn up to them, bump decloak, double scram, dead.

i think you will flash in overview and space when landing inside even if you successfully recloak while warping from activation gate to beacon and landing further than 2k from beacon cloaked already, try it with your corpmates .. though afk farmers will not notice this while active ppl do but it wont matter soon as our cloaks are being "banned"

Veskrashen wrote:

People just need to calm the hell down for a while. Yes, cloaky hunting gets nerfed, and yes that will make it harder to catch stabbed farmers. You will also see fewer stabbed farmers to begin with, because of the NPC changes. In other words, you shouldn't HAVE to run around in an Astero to kill them, because they won't be nearly as big of a problem anymore.

i agree that ppl need to calm down and see what happens but i dont think we will see less stabbed farmers,t1 tristan with almost no skills is easy choice for novice/small still enough dps and still +2 stabbed which is enough for any not specialized anti-farmer fit with dual scram
farmers wont cloak now but they'll be sitting 40k from warpin and i can only hope the anti-cloak buffer is big enough that they just wont kick mwd once and cloak

Granios wrote:
if there will be no stabs cloak in plexes there will be no farmers and systems will be deserted if you want get rid of farmers nerf lp you get by 50% there will be no farmers for sure.

i don't think we will mourn for missing farmers and about less lp i'd be happy about that
it's called faction WARFARE not lp farmland afterall
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#267 - 2014-05-14 08:15:32 UTC
lol, 5 minutes to kill a ~1m isk frigate. and then they go grab another one from the stack 2 jumps away. I think even if you killed them every 5 minutes they'd still make good money.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#268 - 2014-05-14 08:32:01 UTC
I've some fears about the cloacking thing , But CCP could You please just ( i know you can because there is mission in High sec who deny acces If you don't have a key in your cargo)

Could you please : deny acces if the ship has a Warp core stabilizer.

I think it's the only one thing we want and maybe talk about the cloack thing after

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#269 - 2014-05-14 08:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Themis Eostrea wrote:
Much as I find defending farming distasteful, having read this thread in its entirety I believe it to be necessary. Farming, while granting access to large amounts of isk very easily, and frustrating the living hell out of everyone who came to the warzone for PvP, also serves a purpose. That purpose is the continued dynamism of the warzone.

Because of the way sov mechanics in FW work, there is no way to take a system other than grinding plexes. Anyone who has participated in a campaign to take a major system can tell you how mind-numbingly boring this can be. While in major systems this activity can lead to consistent fights and great PvP, the backwaters are rarely contested. Experienced FW denizens know that when the backwaters start getting contested, the farmers have changed sides and the warzone is going to flip. It is the farmers that cause the back and forth in the warzone, not PvP corps / alliances.

If there were no farmers, PvP groups would have to grind their way through every system when trying to gain warzone control, and the vast majority of our time would be spent orbiting beacons and killing rats. While people have been complaining about the negatives of farming, this is the positive side. I didn't sign up for FW to run plexes all damn day, and the farmers actually prevent me from having to do that. So, I consider their existence a necessary evil to be managed.

If you want to really get rid of farmers, change the sov mechanics so that farming is not a necessary part of what ought to be a PvP play style. For those of us who live in and love the warzone, we will find the money to keep fighting, as those activities are what brought us and keep us here.

The farmers will always adapt to whatever cursory changes you make to the system, and so long as the system requires farming-style gameplay to function, nothing will ever change.



I'd be willing to bet the isk made from 99% of these farmers isn't going back into FW, it's going into RMT.

Nulbear hears about FW isk, makes alt, doesn't participate with any other characters.
Highbear hears about FW isk, makes alt, doesn't participate with any other characters.

I mean, just look at the number of real FW players that have participated, then grinded for titans, then left for nul.

Heck, let me spawn as a FW rat and I'll fix the problem.
HuGo87
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#270 - 2014-05-14 08:48:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What about taking away the bunker orbiting and adding NPCs that must be defeated to complete the site? Ensure that there is a 30 minute time to complete by having two ten-minute reinforcement waves. Have the site despawn if a wave is spawned but not attacked for ten minutes. Pay out the same as incursions: reward cooperation rather than penalising it.

Thus there are no timers to count down/up/reset, the attacker must be combat fit, and the defender can actually defend (e.g.: logistics support to NPCs, or simply scare off the attacker). Make sure some of the NPCs can scram/disrupt and we're golden!

Short version: turn FW plexes into incursion plexes with timed spawns.


FW is about PvP, not PvE.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2014-05-14 09:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Yun Kuai
Themis Eostrea wrote:
Much as I find defending farming distasteful, having read this thread in its entirety I believe it to be necessary. Farming, while granting access to large amounts of isk very easily, and frustrating the living hell out of everyone who came to the warzone for PvP, also serves a purpose. That purpose is the continued dynamism of the warzone.

Because of the way sov mechanics in FW work, there is no way to take a system other than grinding plexes. Anyone who has participated in a campaign to take a major system can tell you how mind-numbingly boring this can be. While in major systems this activity can lead to consistent fights and great PvP, the backwaters are rarely contested. Experienced FW denizens know that when the backwaters start getting contested, the farmers have changed sides and the warzone is going to flip. It is the farmers that cause the back and forth in the warzone, not PvP corps / alliances.

If there were no farmers, PvP groups would have to grind their way through every system when trying to gain warzone control, and the vast majority of our time would be spent orbiting beacons and killing rats. While people have been complaining about the negatives of farming, this is the positive side. I didn't sign up for FW to run plexes all damn day, and the farmers actually prevent me from having to do that. So, I consider their existence a necessary evil to be managed.

If you want to really get rid of farmers, change the sov mechanics so that farming is not a necessary part of what ought to be a PvP play style. For those of us who live in and love the warzone, we will find the money to keep fighting, as those activities are what brought us and keep us here.

The farmers will always adapt to whatever cursory changes you make to the system, and so long as the system requires farming-style gameplay to function, nothing will ever change.



I think you're misunderstanding the problem here. It is because of farmers there is no desire to really control the war zone. What is the point of capturing a system when you know 2-3 days later it will be vulnerable agan? That is a problem caused by farmers. If they didn't have such an impact, then yes I would be willing to go out and capture the 5 or so systems around my HQ, but as it is currently, I would be spending every waking minute running defensive plexes in those 5 systems. The active systems that we care to defend are the ones where we can get fights. Those "back water" systems are pointless at this stage because of how easily they be flipped by the hordes.



Interesting side thought. They should introduce plexes in player owned nullsec and let that be the mechanics for system capture. You have to install the upgrades in the ihub and then donate LP to get the level up to get the benefits from the upgrades you installed. Players can then run the plexes in player owned sov to make LP with the pirate factions that "owned" the space. i.e. Vale of the Silent has Guristas so players would get Guristas LP. Only players who aren't apart of the alliance that currently owns the system would qualify for LP and there would be no defensive LP rewarded since Guristas want their space back! All sites captured in a system would "steal" LP from the hub reducing the benefits system wide. Would certainly limit the desire to have a wall of blue that is nullsec today and add a lot more instant player conflict instead of alarm clocking final station timersIdea

EDIT: (troll comment, read with a grain of salt and smile) haha then I could stick my no SP alt out in nullsec and see how the nullbears like their sov being affected so easily!

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#272 - 2014-05-14 10:25:52 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
What about taking away the bunker orbiting and adding NPCs that must be defeated to complete the site? Ensure that there is a 30 minute time to complete by having two ten-minute reinforcement waves. Have the site despawn if a wave is spawned but not attacked for ten minutes. Pay out the same as incursions: reward cooperation rather than penalising it.

Thus there are no timers to count down/up/reset, the attacker must be combat fit, and the defender can actually defend (e.g.: logistics support to NPCs, or simply scare off the attacker). Make sure some of the NPCs can scram/disrupt and we're golden!

Short version: turn FW plexes into incursion plexes with timed spawns.

Where anyone FW or not can land and kill whoever is there.. Yep seems like a positive move - For the small gangs that haunt plexes. The solo plex hunter will go elsewhere because he doesn't want to risk fighting the plexer and a wave of NPC's.

Bottom line is - For now at least and for the near future CCP is aware of the farmers modus operandi and is happy to let it continue..

Removing cloaks will only hurt cloaky hunters, farmers fit 1 less stab for a damage mod to deal with the slightly stronger NPC's.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#273 - 2014-05-14 10:45:05 UTC
I think that plexing and farmers is the main problem why old players leave FW. It must be less boring. My suggestion is to double bounty for every plex and time that you need to plex it, and plex respown time. So FW systems will have twice less plexes in one time, but with doubled motivation to fight for them. Also farmers will meet PVPers more often.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#274 - 2014-05-14 11:12:51 UTC
Feodor Romanov wrote:
I think that plexing and farmers is the main problem why old players leave FW. It must be less boring. My suggestion is to double bounty for every plex and time that you need to plex it, and plex respown time. So FW systems will have twice less plexes in one time, but with doubled motivation to fight for them. Also farmers will meet PVPers more often.

Older players leave FW for the same reason pirates go back to highsec or a highsec player will join a Nulsec corp. Something new something different.
Anyone who has never done anything other than FW is just the same as the guy who has never done anything but missions. RARE..

Eve is a diverse universe where there is always something new to go try. If you role play then long term FW is fine (except the RP facet of FW is pretty much dead) but to really experience eve you need to try different new things.

There are few players who have done the same thing for their whole eve career, although it may seem that way if you look at some of the older players corp history, most have multiple toons and do a variety of things.

Yes FW gets boring after a time and people move on.. It is meant to be that way.


- - - -
Doubling LP and times will achieve exactly the same outcome seen now. If there is no plex in system A, move to system B and so on, reducing amount of plexes will slow farmers but in no way encourage them to Pvp.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#275 - 2014-05-14 11:46:46 UTC
Small plexes were designed for assault frigates and dessies. These ships put out 200 DPS on the low end and 600 on the high. Having rats that only tank 70 DPS in the small is really not a big hurdle to farmers. Most of my T1 frigs can at least push 150 DPS.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#276 - 2014-05-14 12:03:47 UTC
spoon Nardieu wrote:
I'd also like to see customs office and pos ownership restricted to the faction in control of the system. There are plenty of non-fw systems for non-FW groups. This will add a LOT more value to taking systems, teamwork and co-operation among FW corps. This will open a lot of much needed corp/alliance income for FW groups for ship replacement programs, logistics, ect. FW should be a place for pvp corps to grow and be nurtured.

First off, poses, and pocos are fair game to all. Gal mil corps put up poses in systems they plan on taking, put up boosting poses, or at least they used to before the boosting changes, and Cal mil does the same thing. If your corp or alliance cares about pocos or poses, you should defend them or take them from someone else. While FW is a place to learn PVP, and make isk at the same time. There are plenty of groups that live in that same part of space that exist to hunt FW groups. Black rise has the best PVP in the game.


Restricing POSes makes it harder to TAKE a system. It's easy to camp a gate and restrict access. When hitting a home system you really need to anchor a POS to reship from.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#277 - 2014-05-14 13:13:18 UTC
Hey everyone, these complex changes are currently on SISI for you guys to poke at and break.

We highly encourage interested parties to try them out on SISI and let us know what you think.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#278 - 2014-05-14 13:17:02 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, these complex changes are currently on SISI for you guys to poke at and break.

We highly encourage interested parties to try them out on SISI and let us know what you think.


perhaps you could poke and break something of CCP RISE to stop neglecting his threads Evil

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#279 - 2014-05-14 13:51:20 UTC
Somewhat disappointed that my low-DPS but very much PvP viable fits become iffy for offensive plexing (Crucifier and Armor-Kestrel), but perhaps that's the price of progress.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#280 - 2014-05-14 16:32:46 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, these complex changes are currently on SISI for you guys to poke at and break.

We highly encourage interested parties to try them out on SISI and let us know what you think.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4572539#post4572539

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value