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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#381 - 2014-05-07 04:50:19 UTC
I'll read my way through the thread later so apologies for restating things already said.

I'm on the fence on this but leaning towards removal.

I really don't like changes to WH space that abdicate responsibility from the player to an automated process. The Discovery Scanner already has stopped the need to actively check for incoming wormholes. With this API data, as we've all seen, you can build up a very strong profile of a wormhole, all done automatically.

Just take a look at what the former Wormhol.es provided.

Percentage breakdown of timezone.
Current likely residents and their killboard
Previous residents and their killboard
Kickout attempts
Capital Ships
Hull class breakdown.

All that is already coming from analysis of API data. I'm sure there are corp specific programs out there that track the API for NPC kills to build up profiles of likely ratting times for login traps. There's nothing stopping people from setting up alerts triggered by NPC/Ship/Pod kills anywhere in an active chain thus negating the need for a scout to monitor chains in return for a short delay. The longer the chain the more potent this is.
We've all got suspicions that many of the public mapping programs are monitored by the larger groups that wrote it for potential crossovers.
Killboards already track ships and weapons used for PvP kills.
Hell one of our guys has an idea for an FC helper based off all that data.

Is this what we want W Space to be? Everyone sitting back waiting for an alarm to trigger off? Complete knowledge of you opponent before you set eyes on them?

How often do you guys keep your static open when rolling? 20-30 minutes? Last High WH group I flew with was around that. I get that you guys don't want to waste your time on WH's with people from other timezones than yourself but the speed and efficiency you guys check and roll your static using this kind of data means you're also limiting any opportunity for others to roll into your chain and respond. Maybe slowing things down and forcing you to figure out timezones via other methods will increase PvP as your scouts are out and about in more numbers than they are now, increasing potential targets for all.

Removing NPC?Ship/Pod is a minor limit on the crazyness already around and we'll all survive it plenty fine.

If it's something that people actually think will doom W-Space to oblivion (It won't but I"m willing to be convinced) then perhaps a halfway solution.

Change the API data to show a single NPC kill inside that hour block regardless of it being and NPC, Ship kill or Podding and regardless of how many of any of those.

It gives the alert still while also requiring actual scouts to go check things out to see if it's a guy poding themselves to HS or a group running sites.
Flash Phoenix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#382 - 2014-05-07 05:01:21 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You want consistent high isk kills in an area of the game where the mechanics are designed specifically to make it difficult to get consistent, high isk kills.


You seems to misunderstand things. WH were designed as a high-profit high-risk environment thats provides consistent content. And high-risk means its EASY to get killed.


You seem to misunderstand things. WH are high-profit, high-risk environment. And the high-risk means its EASY to get killed. That provides consistent content.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#383 - 2014-05-07 05:01:52 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

You want consistent high isk kills in an area of the game where the mechanics are designed specifically to make it difficult to get consistent, high isk kills.


You seems to misunderstand things. WH were designed as a high-profit high-risk environment thats provides consistent content. And high-risk means its EASY to get killed.


High risk doesn't necessarily mean that it HAS to be easy to get killed on a regular basis. High risk can also be viewed as you have more to lose if you do get killed.

FW pilots fly frigates all day and can lose them all day, that's the PvP they enjoy. C6 WHers fly capitals but because they live in WH's they need to lose them on a regular basis? There's a bit of a price discrepancy there, and if you want a ratio of risk to reward I think the FW players are winning.

The reason the WH carebears are getting so good at wasting your time is because they are under constant threat. You taught them to HTFU or get out of WH space so what's the issue? How long can you keep training them to avoid you before it just becomes a constant stalemate, and you're on the forums screaming for CCP to change WH mechanics because there's no content?

Rolling the hole was always supposed to be like rolling the dice. Having 100% reliable intel available within seconds after your scanner jumps in a hole is like knowing that 2 out the 5 dice will always be a 5 or 6.

New sigs instantly showing up in the scanner is a problem also, but not as easily addressed as third party intel that wasn't meant to exist in the first place. There is a very delicate balance to be found in dealing with when signatures show up, why they show up, and how they can be seen that people with more critical statistics than me need to think long and hard about.

Something that you're forgetting is that, as has been mentioned, a lot of the carebears are using this information to make sure they never get caught slipping.

And there are many more ways to force a confrontation than just completely catching people off guard. Try taking some more risks yourself before complaining about how few other people take.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
Harry Sullivan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#384 - 2014-05-07 05:14:09 UTC
John Caldr wrote:

Once again, NPC alt without real WH PVP or WH life experience talks about things he know nothing about.


How dare you doubt the ultimate wisdom that John Caldr is spreading around these forums Lol.

Let`s not forget John Caldr knows every person playing EVE and can judge properly if you are an experienced WH PVP / Life experienced pilot only by taking a look at your "NPC alt". I am too lazy to quote this a few times more, but he did this multiple times in this thread with absolute pinpoint precision.

John Caldr also doesn`t need the API info in question at all, his Chuck Norris like ability to sense carebears around New Eden also allows him to perfectly log off trap anyone and anything in eve like a real boss. Therefore I really don`t understand why he disagrees with removing the NPC kills from the API for WH space, I suspect he`s only trolling big time laughing at the inferior Blood Union who do not posess a member of his skill and powers.

He got you good BU. He got you good.

John Caldr wrote:

All WH PVPers agreed that this feature helps create PVP content.


John Caldr is also not only the spokesperson of all WH PVP people that exist and superior to anyone in the CSM or the people actually designing and shaping this game.

John Caldr wrote:

if you go for numbers - you can farm 80billions in few days with just few hours per day and only 2 people.


He is also holding a large number of all Titans in the game as he farms a new one every three days or so.

He`s also the famous creator of the how to earn 80B in two days with only two people guide that is including tips on how to not loose your capital to a super elite Quantum Explosion log off trap which I`m unfortunately not able to link here because you "Farmers" are not elitist enough to even lay an eye on the word of the prophet.

John Caldr wrote:

Farmers store nothing on poses and dont care about them. So it hardly affects bad people.
Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP.


In his ultimate wisdom John also decided that those low life Farmers and groups looking for PvE are not only "bad people" but should stay in HiSec and avoid dangerous wormhole space to not interfer with his supreme Sleeper PvP.

Or like John would say
John Caldr wrote:
You see, you cant have cake and eat it too.
Now, get your hands off the cake! Cake is not for eating!

Seriously GTFO John.

Now that we all had a great laugh about the incredibly intelligent, tolerant and allknowing John Caldr can we get back to a meaningful discussion about the topic?

It`s not the point if you are a PvE or PVP player in W-Space.

The point is that we had access to data that the original designer totally admitted was never intended to be in the API and you made good use of it. But it ultimately collides with the decision CCP makes on how they want the Wormhole Experience to be, and I`m sure they have a good reason to make this change to improve the game for everyone in Wormholes in the future.

But instead of telling people how bad it is that you had to actively discover and chase targets and put a lot more time and effort into hunting than right now I hardly see anyone making any suggestions that would me as a game designer even think about how I could create an alternative or compromise to still achieve content creation for the people mainly doing wormhole PvP.

EVE is not a game for whiny b***es and we all know that, instead use your experience with WH PvP and the challenges W-Space creates for it to relay meaningful feedback and a thought process behind it to FoxFour who is actually reading most of your sh*t and actively thinking about how to make this a better game for you guys.

So stop threatening with unsubscribing and blaming people for rather doing PvE than PvP content. Get your brains working and focus on a solution that would still enable you to do what you like to do but doesn`t create a severe disadvantage for the people doing PvE in W-Space.

Just my two cents.
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#385 - 2014-05-07 05:17:47 UTC
Try wh cap pvp before posting here. Would make more sense.
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#386 - 2014-05-07 05:17:49 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

High risk doesn't necessarily mean that it HAS to be easy to get killed on a regular basis. High risk can also be viewed as you have more to lose if you do get killed.

FW pilots fly frigates all day and can lose them all day, that's the PvP they enjoy. C6 WHers fly capitals but because they live in WH's they need to lose them on a regular basis? There's a bit of a price discrepancy there, and if you want a ratio of risk to reward I think the FW players are winning.


In C5/C6 WH you farm sum enough to buy all 4 capitals used for farm in a DAY. Let me know of any FW activity that can bring you 10-20 billions per 4-5 hours per 1-2 people.

Bohneik Itohn wrote:

Rolling the hole was always supposed to be like rolling the dice. Having 100% reliable intel available within seconds after your scanner jumps in a hole is like knowing that 2 out the 5 dice will always be a 5 or 6.


You see, in addition to the fact that majority of WHs are empty, if the targets are active in time A, and you rolling in time B, dice always returns zero. And api tools are still delayed and do not provide real time information for jumped in scout.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#387 - 2014-05-07 05:22:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Bohneik Itohn
Harry Sullivan wrote:


Impassable wall of rhetoric.



I don't even know what you wrote, but I'm impressed. You found a way to put more effort into this thread than I ever could, and I've spent about half the day just throwing random crap on here.

My day has been a useless void of boredom that I could only fill with the constant monitoring of a topic that I only have a mild interest in, because the paper thin arguments being put forth don't require enough of my attention to cause me to pause my video streaming. You, sir, have invested effort into this.

You win, whatever you propose CCP does as a solution, I support. I'm going to bed.

Edit: Can't resist.

John Caldr wrote:
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

High risk doesn't necessarily mean that it HAS to be easy to get killed on a regular basis. High risk can also be viewed as you have more to lose if you do get killed.

FW pilots fly frigates all day and can lose them all day, that's the PvP they enjoy. C6 WHers fly capitals but because they live in WH's they need to lose them on a regular basis? There's a bit of a price discrepancy there, and if you want a ratio of risk to reward I think the FW players are winning.


In C5/C6 WH you farm sum enough to buy all 4 capitals used for farm in a DAY. Let me know of any FW activity that can bring you 10-20 billions per 4-5 hours per 1-2 people.

Bohneik Itohn wrote:

Rolling the hole was always supposed to be like rolling the dice. Having 100% reliable intel available within seconds after your scanner jumps in a hole is like knowing that 2 out the 5 dice will always be a 5 or 6.


You see, in addition to the fact that majority of WHs are empty, if the targets are active in time A, and you rolling in time B, dice always returns zero. And api tools are still delayed and do not provide real time information for jumped in scout.



FW players gain less, but they risk less. Key word was ratio. 5 million isk frigate in FW can easily net a FW player a couple hundred million in 5 hours, if he really wants to abuse the system. He can now afford to lose 40 of those frigates, which can be bought by the hundreds on the open market. A WHer in a capital not only loses a larger ratio of the isk rewarded for his efforts if he screws up, but a significant amount of time. Those capitals have to be manufactured, the materials hauled, etc...

Majority of the WH's you roll into are empty you say? Well if you're fishing in a lake that you know for a fact has very few fish to catch, why are you complaining about starving? Find a place with more fish.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

Are you a forum alt? Have you ever wondered why your experience on the forums is always so frustrating and unrewarding? This may help.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#388 - 2014-05-07 05:25:08 UTC
RudinV wrote:
King Fu Hostile wrote:

This is beyond ******** on so many levels that it deserves to be QFP

You start from faulty premises and go on making a chain of wrong conclusions, and somehow still manage to land in an irrational statement that doesn't even have anything to do with what you said earlier.


another noname lowsec brawler in the thread. do u rly understand what u post about or its just random words what u want to type this morning?Lol


u u u

I have no idea who you are either, but that still doesn't mean your post makes any sense. You can't even write.

1) you don't have to hunt farmers
2) nobody cares how much time you spend on it
3) if you don't like it, do something else

NPC kills in wormhole space don't belong to API, were never intended to and now CCP fixes it- deal with it.
Harry Sullivan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#389 - 2014-05-07 05:31:44 UTC
RudinV wrote:
Try wh cap pvp before posting here. Would make more sense.


Right, because my "inferior" WH cap PvE and almost 8 years in nullsec doing cap PvP doesn`t allow me to make an educated guess about WH cap pvp at all.

Sorry!

I totally forgot that WH Cap PVP is an absolute rocket science only an elite circle of people can do and know about.
Sometimes I think you forget you play a PEGI 12 game not a quantum physics simulator.

John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#390 - 2014-05-07 05:32:45 UTC
Harry Sullivan wrote:


Random trolling



I know the stuff I'm talking about.

http://clip2net.com/s/i5fE2f

You - not so much.
Akseli Jari
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#391 - 2014-05-07 05:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Akseli Jari
CCP FoxFour wrote:


Bla Bla Bla, we're going to make this change anyway



What is really annoying about this thread is in the way that this was announced as a foregone conclusion with an offhanded comment that "i'm probably going to do it, but post stuffs anyway".

The amount of nullsec carebears advocating for the change should indicate that this is a content driver.

How about adding content to W-Space before removing information our tools are using to help us find content, because W-Space would be uninhabitable without these tools. While the change isn't game breaking it isn't desirable to many people who have decided to make W-Space a permanent home.

To be blunt, this change would have been a lot better received had if it was posted along with a number of other changes shortly before they occur, such as a fix of pos code, a rework of corp roles.

But you're going to make the change anyway, as you've stated a number of others at your workplace have agreed that it should be removed so why are we even arguing the point. If you're going to scour all information that is not available in-game from the API then at least do it thoroughly.

Some in the thread have iterated that there are other tools in wide use in null sec that should be looked at as well, if you show bias and its found at a later date prepare for mails. Maybe you can become the W-Space dev, we'll actually have one that bothers to read the W-Space forums. Perhaps we could use one, our CSM rep seems pretty quiet, tamed him already?
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#392 - 2014-05-07 05:55:46 UTC
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

Those capitals have to be manufactured, the materials hauled, etc...


Dont mix things up. You dont build it, you just get it from market/contracts. Instantly.
Roll for null/low, move cyno, bring caps in. Takes about an hour+ at most. Then you good to go.

Bohneik Itohn wrote:

Majority of the WH's you roll into are empty you say? Well if you're fishing in a lake that you know for a fact has very few fish to catch, why are you complaining about starving? Find a place with more fish.


Isk-wise ratio - you can fly using free noob ships. Getting infinite ratio instantly, available everywhere.

But we are not interested in such things, nor with FW PVP with small fish with mighty condors with bonuses. And we are not so starving ATM.

Fishing for big fish is fun. But when someone will remove the bobber from our fishing rod - fishing will become impossible.
Winthorp
#393 - 2014-05-07 05:56:58 UTC
So all you nullsec guys that came into this thread after it was cross posted on reddit would be totally ok if we didn't enter local chat after we jump into it via a WH?

Because if we really want WH space to go to the true lore of it and be "Unknown" we shouldn't be reported into local chat until we technically use a stargate. It is the only acceptable trade off i can come up with that would replace the CONTENT this change will remove from WH space.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#394 - 2014-05-07 06:12:07 UTC
It doesn't remove any of the content, it removes an unintended way to access data that is not available in game.

The amount of tears does however signal a bigger issue- lack of activity and conflict generators in wormhole space. If there would be a higher chance of meeting active pilots in your static or down the chain, nobody would be butthurt about this bug fix. Now such events are so rare, that people either rely on logoff trapping and 3rd party tools, seek for action in low/null or leave completely.

Wormhole life shouldn't be just about ganking bears, I'm confident everyone would enjoy fighting other combat fleets on a more regular basis, preferably over some meaningful objectives rather than just jumping a HIC on the other side and asking for a fight in local.

I find this is the major issue in wormhole space, the topic for further discussion as it is not something easily solved. Hopefully new POSes could be designed with with conflict drivers in mind- something to attack for gains, and to defend for maintaining gains that wouldn't necessarily require a full-scale siege and eviction.

RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#395 - 2014-05-07 06:13:05 UTC
This thread is a monument for: if u want to change somethin, go to fanfest and make them do it. 5 years that was not a problem, now carebears whine and voila! Fix is coming. Have no idea why CCP wanna rise generation of silly players, while this super dangerous logoff traps can be countered that easy... That make me sad, eve in general instead of being player friendly going to be morons and slackers friendly
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#396 - 2014-05-07 06:16:32 UTC
RudinV wrote:
This thread is a monument for: if u want to change somethin, go to fanfest and make them do it. 5 years that was not a problem, now carebears whine and voila! Fix is coming. Have no idea why CCP wanna rise generation of silly players, while this super dangerous logoff traps can be countered that easy... That make me sad, eve in general instead of being player friendly going to be morons and slackers friendly


It's even easier to counter this bug fix, unless you are a silly moron slacker care bear- log in a cloaky scout in your target system.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#397 - 2014-05-07 06:20:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Winthorp wrote:
So all you nullsec guys that came into this thread after it was cross posted on reddit would be totally ok if we didn't enter local chat after we jump into it via a WH?

Because if we really want WH space to go to the true lore of it and be "Unknown" we shouldn't be reported into local chat until we technically use a stargate. It is the only acceptable trade off i can come up with that would replace the CONTENT this change will remove from WH space.


abloobloobloo

"please replace one massive advantage we currently have with another massive advantage because we need a crutch"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Alundil
Rolled Out
#398 - 2014-05-07 06:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alundil
Bohneik Itohn wrote:

If you roll into a system and the locals immediately spot you and everyone re-ships into a small PvP gang to meet you at the door, just go ahead and hide in your POS because you weren't looking for a fun and exciting fight anyways, just some easy fluff to pad your killboard.



What a joke - because yes you're absolutely spot on. No one in w-space wants PvP fights

Roll



**love the changing narrative of "bug fix" I'm seeing now**

I'm right behind you
Kename Fin
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#399 - 2014-05-07 06:53:27 UTC
John Caldr wrote:

Fishing for big fish is fun. But when someone will remove the bobber from our fishing rod - fishing will become impossible.


Heh, made me smile there. Bobbers are used for children and people who prefer not to have to pay attention to their line. I think you have done a great job of proving the other side's point for them with your extention of the analogy.LolLolLolLol
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#400 - 2014-05-07 07:18:43 UTC
dexter xio wrote:
RIP Blood Union.


This is actually going to be really bad for the farmers.

I mean, I'm a farmer, and have always been a farmer. But we only farm to PVP, so there's a difference between farming, and farmer only corps.

From here on in I'm thinking we'll see more invasions/evictions instead these days. Especially smaller scale invasions, much like the logoffski traps but on a larger scale. Very bad for the farmer only type corps.

Also, there are these things call OOC alts that are used to scout farmers if you're serious about taking out blue balling farmers.