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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

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Meroa Buelle
Someone Else's Problem
#1141 - 2014-07-11 19:50:43 UTC
Here's a solution for the T2 BPO's --allow for invention to be done from a t1 bpo to a t2 bpo that way anyone that has an original bpo wont be annoyed with the eventual removal of t2 bpo's.

Admittedly this will need a large amount of datacores and maybe a slightly improved invention chance so that people arent waiting forever and a day to get a t2 bpo however the cost involved in this process should protect the value of the t2 bpo's already in circulation.
Danastar
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1142 - 2014-07-12 19:39:55 UTC
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar
Black Romero
Aviation Professionals for EVE
#1143 - 2014-07-12 20:43:26 UTC
Okay guys, I have read as much as I can without my eyes falling out and searched the forums to no avail....it looks like this thread is active still, so I ask here....


What is happening to the Science Skill in Crius since Copying will be instantaneous now? Question


It is still a prereq for a lot of stuff, any chance of getting its' bonuses changed from 5% copy speed per level to something else?

Many pardons if this has been asked already and I just don't have the patience to keep looking.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#1144 - 2014-07-12 20:57:04 UTC
Black Romero wrote:
Okay guys, I have read as much as I can without my eyes falling out and searched the forums to no avail....it looks like this thread is active still, so I ask here....


What is happening to the Science Skill in Crius since Copying will be instantaneous now? Question


It is still a prereq for a lot of stuff, any chance of getting its' bonuses changed from 5% copy speed per level to something else?

Many pardons if this has been asked already and I just don't have the patience to keep looking.

Coping is not instantaneous. The skill is still used and shows up in the UI tool tip as cutting the time used.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Danastar
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1145 - 2014-07-14 12:03:44 UTC
Danastar wrote:
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar


no one?
c'mon guys, devs, little lost green alines... :)
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#1146 - 2014-07-14 12:12:20 UTC
Danastar wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar


no one?
c'mon guys, devs, little lost green alines... :)


I can't even remember them promising anything like that, so I wouldn't bet on it.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1147 - 2014-07-14 16:08:53 UTC
Danastar wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar


no one?
c'mon guys, devs, little lost green alines... :)


After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1148 - 2014-07-14 16:23:49 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.

Glad to hear this -- performing compensation would, as you've surmised, set a fairly dangerous precedent, and I'm happy that you and yours were able to hold the line on this, despite the waves of entitlement and wailing posted by a very vocal minority on these forums.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1149 - 2014-07-14 16:30:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar


no one?
c'mon guys, devs, little lost green alines... :)


After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.


I think I love you so what am I so afraid of?

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1150 - 2014-07-14 16:32:25 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.
Good decision, from my point of view, especially with the reasons for it that you stated here. Thanks for that!

NPE – ISD – RIP
Morgus Dei
Cambridge Mountain Rescue
The Monarchy
#1151 - 2014-07-14 16:54:37 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4786872#post4786872

Any chance i get some answers to these questions before the next patch from an official side?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1152 - 2014-07-14 17:47:18 UTC
Morgus Dei wrote:
I tried to read through at least all dev post but didnt found some answers i am looking for:

1.) A statement is "with the goal that no blueprint gets *worse* as a result of the transition." (POST 469) and its conflict with the capital BPO Problem as already indicated (a.e.in POST 343 page 18): ">The double whammy is our well optimized ME 2-6 capital hull BPOs will suddenly get a load of extra waste." ... "There should not be "a load of extra waste", I am not sure where you're seeing that?"

And keeping this in mind: "Because we want ME to go to 10%, and we want "perfect ME" blueprints in the new system to give the same build cost as a "perfect ME" blueprint in the current system, we need to have the new base cost * 0.9 to be equal to the old base build cost, and to get that we have to divide it by 0.9, which comes to 11.11111...1111%." (Post 331 page 17)

I will take the Orca and its need for its capital cargo bays as Example (assuming perfect production skills):

Old requirement: 34 [Base Value] + 3 [10% waste= 3,4 -> 3 Units] = 37 Units unresearched, perfect reserched ME LVL means the 34 Base Units which is actually reached with an ME LVL of 6.

New: 34 * 1,111111... = 37,7777 -> 38 Base Units unresearched

-9% [ME9% was the former ME6 = perfect] = 34,58 -> 35 runded up (SISI Verified today)
-10% [ME10%] = 34,2

->if you round the 34.2 down it means that the conversion take an perfect (ME 6 OLD) BPO and make an unperfect (ME9% new) BPO out of it as ME10% safe you another unit.
->if you round it up that will means that the orca needs 5 more capital parts (as other components are affected too) to be built in the new system compared to the old one if i did see it right on SISI, regardless if ME9% or ME10%

This happens as you need to round after the "* 1,111..." .As the ME reduction is applied when the BPO is used. Taking the Idea of the transition only:
34 (base old) * 1,111111 (for the new base value) * 0,91 (9% reduction) = 34,37777 mathematic correctly rounded down would be 34, but as i already said, there is an extra step between getting the new Base Value and the ME reduction (round 37,7777... to 38)...

Your last Idea:

Post 873 page 44: "We're currently leaning heavily towards calculating ME for the job as a whole, not per-run, probably with a limiter that requires every run always consumes at least one of every material (to prevent 9 apocs -> 10 paladins shenanigans)."

will not be helpfull as you cant install a production job for so many orcas to completly compensate. If you could get 100 runs you have to use 3458 Cargo Bay units which is 100 * 34,58 from the ME9% calculation above. But you cant install more than 3 at a time in an NPC station. And it would still be more than current (34*100=3400)

On the other side this new Idea has a serious downside: if you round correctly the 34,2 from the ME10% above you need 34 units per run, but 342 units from 10 runs, so 2 units wasted because of making more runs at once... Even with only 3 runs there can be waste if the requirement is rounded down for the production of 1 unit:
3*34,2=102,6 ->103

How do you plan to keep those type of BPOs perfect with the same built costs? Making all sub ME 10 but "perfect" BPOs ME10% would be a solution, changing the material requirements would be another ... but there could still be the problem with your latest idea...


2.) As BPOs can only be used where they are located, what will happen to the BPOs that will come out of research after patch (inserted before patch) if these are locked in a npc station, while beeing researched at a POS in the same system?
- will those appear in the POS (getting unlocked by the same time)
- appear in the station again, still locked (for a last time)
- cause a DB error and disappear? (hopefully just joking)

I ask because its something that isnt tested in SISI as you remove all the POSes and the corresponding jobs and BPOs when you make a new snapshot from tranquility before you install new patches as far as i know / could see.


3.) I have many BPOs locked in a NPC station with manufacturing slots only and use a POS to research/copy them. Now i need to move them to a station with copy slots as i cant use the POS any more or to the POS (depending on Value) Will the Lock/unlock system be overworked? It would be a too long text to describe but have you ever tried to unlock 100s of BPOs ?
its a click fest and take forever. The UI makes it even more complicated, as it dont close the votes, but only the tabs so you have to search for forgotten votes between all the accepted ones. Not to mention the work to lock them again.... and repeat all this when i want to change station because system cost are getting through the roof ....

Any solution for this in sight?


1) In the example you're giving at least, I'm happy with the outcomes you describe. The new 9% blueprints are functionally perfect (ie further research will not improve returns in any practical scenario). The "change" is that now Orcas are slightly more expensive, which isn't a major concern :)

2) I don't have exact details on this available right now, but I know it's being dealt with.

3) The locking system is definitely a thing we're hoping to revisit in future! No ETA right now, though, sorry.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1153 - 2014-07-14 19:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
CCP Greyscale wrote:
1) In the example you're giving at least, I'm happy with the outcomes you describe. The new 9% blueprints are functionally perfect (ie further research will not improve returns in any practical scenario). The "change" is that now Orcas are slightly more expensive, which isn't a major concern :)

I'm sorry, but what?

How is this not a major concern? It's just like when extra materials were added to a bunch of ships. It's not going to be cost-effective to produce these things for a while...

It was stated that the devs didn't want blueprints to get worse as a result of these changes, and now you're saying it's not a concern when they do get worse?
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1154 - 2014-07-14 20:13:35 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:

I think I love you so what am I so afraid of?

Probably the grey and scaly part of the process.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1155 - 2014-07-14 20:19:26 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar


no one?
c'mon guys, devs, little lost green alines... :)


After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.


I think I love you so what am I so afraid of?


Don't forget his Titan thread posts....

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Danastar
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1156 - 2014-07-14 20:48:31 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar


no one?
c'mon guys, devs, little lost green alines... :)


After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.




10x for the answer CCP Greyscale,
just wanted to make sure i don't miss anything

regards
Elisabeth Jane
Doomheim
#1157 - 2014-07-14 22:53:18 UTC
Maybe... if you give us the reasons, it would be easier to swallow...
Just giving a simple 'for a number of reasons' is not enough for me. I want more details.

I gave several examples where this will cost me more, and I did not do the ME to a stupid number..

EVE Post: Orca
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4772683#post4772683

EVE Post Rorqual
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4773267#post4773267





CCP Greyscale wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Danastar wrote:
Hello Guys,

I apologize for not being able to follow the discussion closely and read all the comments. If my question is already answered I ask for excuse one more time.

In the early stage of the research dev blogs, there was an idea for compensation of some sort for the ones that own highly researched BPOs. Is there final conclusion for that, is there going to be some sort of compensation and if yes, how is it going to be processed.

Thank You.

--Danastar


no one?
c'mon guys, devs, little lost green alines... :)


After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.
Circumstantial Evidence
#1158 - 2014-07-15 00:04:25 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation.
How about this idea, copied from "Hull Tanking, Elite":
Give everyone who has a BC or larger ship BP with ME 100 or better: "Blueprint Research, Elite."
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#1159 - 2014-07-15 01:54:37 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation.
How about this idea, copied from "Hull Tanking, Elite":
Give everyone who has a BC or larger ship BP with ME 100 or better: "Blueprint Research, Elite."




no I think he basically just said that despite folks who went above normal and paid money to watch stuff click down for months on end.. forget it.. you're not getting anything they're changing it for the greater good of the game..so its a tough **** statement.

really seems more like a drive to push folks away from investing err um playing the game into the future cause all they're going to do is "change" this and that so all your hard patience skill training gets wiped away.. all your precious gems gets either blown up or nerf'ed to the point its meaningless.. and all your time waiting and investing into a certain path gets wiped out completely.

and it seems they're more concerned to polish over quality of the release..lol sounds like a cop out from having to do more work, although they could but they are not.. just sayin.

how can you polish on things that you sit around and wait to be exposed or come forth I don't know.. shouldn't that have been done way beforehand? seems they're still going back and forth so I guess their minds are scrambled by the spreadsheet magic.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#1160 - 2014-07-15 02:27:33 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

After a *lot* of discussion, we came to the conclusion that, for a number of reasons, we are not going to be enacting any form of compensation. There's a lot of things feeding into this decision, including the strong precedent it sets, the fact that no functional value is lost, and the work involved in a one-time compensation deal that could be spent on polishing up the features we're shipping. We understand that some people will be unhappy about this, and we empathize with that, but we have to weigh everyone's interests equally and we believe in this case that the best thing for the game as a whole is to convert blueprints to the new system as previously described but not make any additional changes in this area.


This is a good decision, and I say that as a person whose most valuable single BPO is now overresearched.

Game balance changes happen, some go your way (I happened to own a bunch of Ishtars when the HAC rebalance was announced and it was clear the Ishtar was going to become OP) and some go the other way (I had *just* sold thousands of Drone Damage Amplifiers when the drone rebalance was announced, leading to a sharp increase in interest in drone oriented ships).

Make the decision that's the best for the game, and if as a consequence some of my BPOs fall in price a few hundred million, I'll wear that.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com