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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Angelina Duvolle
Homeworld Technologies
#1121 - 2014-05-29 21:15:15 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Not for Crius or Kronos, sorry. We don't have the time to evaluate the impact of any possible changes given the other work we have on our plates right now.





Everyone will just take this to mean you are going to do it in a later patch.
I'm not sure if you are being purposely cryptic or just take delight in fueling rampant rumor mongering and speculation. It's very un-CCP like.

You guys should at least put forth a consistent message, one way or the other.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#1122 - 2014-05-29 23:00:59 UTC
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Not for Crius or Kronos, sorry. We don't have the time to evaluate the impact of any possible changes given the other work we have on our plates right now.





Everyone will just take this to mean you are going to do it in a later patch.
I'm not sure if you are being purposely cryptic or just take delight in fueling rampant rumor mongering and speculation. It's very un-CCP like.

You guys should at least put forth a consistent message, one way or the other.



Their message is consistent and unambiguous. It is "We do not like the impact T2 BPOs have on the game, we recognise that removing them outright would be disruptive to the economy, and we have not yet made a decision on how to handle them".

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1123 - 2014-05-30 11:49:34 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Not for Crius or Kronos, sorry. We don't have the time to evaluate the impact of any possible changes given the other work we have on our plates right now.





Everyone will just take this to mean you are going to do it in a later patch.
I'm not sure if you are being purposely cryptic or just take delight in fueling rampant rumor mongering and speculation. It's very un-CCP like.

You guys should at least put forth a consistent message, one way or the other.



Their message is consistent and unambiguous. It is "We do not like the impact T2 BPOs have on the game, we recognise that removing them outright would be disruptive to the economy, and we have not yet made a decision on how to handle them".


Pretty much this. We are unhappy with the status quo, but we are not sure what changes we are going to make right now.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1124 - 2014-05-30 12:36:23 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Pretty much this. We are unhappy with the status quo, but we are not sure what changes we are going to make right now.


Module teiricide and allowing us to build named modules in some manner could decimate many of the problematic modules if cunningly balanced, if considering potential sources of inspiration for iterative devaluing Twisted

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1125 - 2014-05-30 16:34:36 UTC
I am not sure if you have answered this or not, but how are you handling Capital BPOs. My ME6 PE1 Moros is at 0% waste, will I still be at 0% waste after this change? Basically I am asking if it will be a ME10 or a ME9 Blueprint after the patch, or am I going to get screwed over with a ME6 being just ME6 after the patch?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#1126 - 2014-05-30 17:04:27 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Pretty much this. We are unhappy with the status quo, but we are not sure what changes we are going to make right now.
Just turn them into non-functional collectors items. That way, anyone that wanted to collect them still can. You shouldn't need to retain redundant mechanics. Send them the way of mines.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Elysiana Karasniz
Kazari Holdings
#1127 - 2014-05-30 17:31:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Angelina Duvolle wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Not for Crius or Kronos, sorry. We don't have the time to evaluate the impact of any possible changes given the other work we have on our plates right now.





Everyone will just take this to mean you are going to do it in a later patch.
I'm not sure if you are being purposely cryptic or just take delight in fueling rampant rumor mongering and speculation. It's very un-CCP like.

You guys should at least put forth a consistent message, one way or the other.



Their message is consistent and unambiguous. It is "We do not like the impact T2 BPOs have on the game, we recognise that removing them outright would be disruptive to the economy, and we have not yet made a decision on how to handle them".


Pretty much this. We are unhappy with the status quo, but we are not sure what changes we are going to make right now.

Could you put together an updated version of this: http://k162space.com/2012/07/17/percentage-of-items-from-invention-vs-tech-2-bpo/ along with any other relevant information so we know what the status quo actually is?

There's an awful lot of unfounded hysteria on the forums over T2 BPOs but that's because they're forums. It would be good to have some actual evidence to define the "status quo" before doing anything else.

My initial suspicion is that a lot of the terror over BPOs arises from quite a few products being on the market for sub-invention prices. However this may well have nothing to do with T2 BPOs - many t1 products are on the market for sub-build costs as well. Assuming everyone is rational and works strictly to the cost numbers is unfortunately a silly thing to assume. For an example of this, check Armageddon build cost against the average market price for the last year.

Not to say T2 BPOs *don't* have a big effect on some products, merely that we need some actual evidence either way.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1128 - 2014-05-30 18:13:56 UTC
Elysiana Karasniz wrote:
For an example of this, check Armageddon build cost against the average market price for the last year.


Bad example.

The Armageddon used to be around 90 million to build. So many got built at that level. That stockpile has yet to be exhausted. People are selling at a price that's profitable for them.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Aineko Macx
#1129 - 2014-06-11 20:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aineko Macx
@ CCP: Please consider doing something about the insane scaling of research time on the bigger, slower blueprints:
As an example, take any capital BPO and compare a BP researched to ME5 to a ME10 under the current system. The difference in cost is typically very small and with linear time anyone can research just as far.
Under the new system, the difference in cost is suddenly very pronounced, and at the same time, reaching the higher research levels has become basically impossible due to the geometric time scaling and is also much more costly.
Basically this gives a huge advantage for the older industrials with already well researched BPs and makes the entry much more difficult for new players. Malcanis law applies once more.
Psyrelle
Perimeter Provisions
#1130 - 2014-06-22 10:57:33 UTC
I might be late comming into this but I have a qyestion and I don't really have the desire to read through 57 pages to find my answer.

When will the blueprint changes come into play.

I thought it would come with the latest expansion. but ingame my bp's still have me lvl 110 etc

Sorry if this was explained somewhere but im slightly confused
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1131 - 2014-06-22 17:27:59 UTC
Psyrelle wrote:
I might be late comming into this but I have a qyestion and I don't really have the desire to read through 57 pages to find my answer.

When will the blueprint changes come into play.

I thought it would come with the latest expansion. but ingame my bp's still have me lvl 110 etc

Sorry if this was explained somewhere but im slightly confused

It was postponed till the next release (Crius), as per http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/delivering-the-industry-new-eden-deserves/

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#1132 - 2014-06-22 17:30:56 UTC
Steve: The items used in the NPE need to be special cased at least in those systems.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1133 - 2014-06-22 17:37:55 UTC
Salpun wrote:
Steve: The items used in the NPE need to be special cased at least in those systems.



To restrict the cost to install the jobs for the civilian modules? Known issue, which I've mentioned.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#1134 - 2014-06-22 17:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Salpun wrote:
Steve: The items used in the NPE need to be special cased at least in those systems.



To restrict the cost to install the jobs for the civilian modules? Known issue, which I've mentioned.

The NPE does not use civilian modules any more. Except for the items given to you.

Its the time to build issue for the afterburners first item created that is the biggest issue.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Psyrelle
Perimeter Provisions
#1135 - 2014-06-22 18:03:24 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Psyrelle wrote:
I might be late comming into this but I have a qyestion and I don't really have the desire to read through 57 pages to find my answer.

When will the blueprint changes come into play.

I thought it would come with the latest expansion. but ingame my bp's still have me lvl 110 etc

Sorry if this was explained somewhere but im slightly confused

It was postponed till the next release (Crius), as per http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/delivering-the-industry-new-eden-deserves/


Awwwwww

Ahh well only 1 month until Ill start playing the game again then.
Lotus Lady
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1136 - 2014-06-23 20:14:39 UTC
Hi, I've read a bit in here so I know that old ME will be scaled to match witn new ME accordingly, as per above "ME 6 translates to ~8.6%, which we're rounding up to 9%" Still remains the question, what lowest old ME do I need to get new 10%? Is it ME 10 = new 10%?

I also read that ongoing research jobs will be scaled the same way, I suppose this will not impact the research time once it goes but only the outcoming BPO once the job completes, right?

There is nowhere I saw any comment on pending jobs. If I have BPO research waiting in line will it get started immediately after update or will I be waiting in "pending" status for the whole timer?
At the same time, I suppose there won't be any research time change on that pending job when it starts (right?) and the resulting BPO will get adjusted the same way as others.

Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere as I did manage to scrol through only about 25% of replies in this "snakelike" post.
Psyrelle
Perimeter Provisions
#1137 - 2014-06-24 11:46:16 UTC
Psyrelle wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Psyrelle wrote:
I might be late comming into this but I have a qyestion and I don't really have the desire to read through 57 pages to find my answer.

When will the blueprint changes come into play.

I thought it would come with the latest expansion. but ingame my bp's still have me lvl 110 etc

Sorry if this was explained somewhere but im slightly confused

It was postponed till the next release (Crius), as per http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/delivering-the-industry-new-eden-deserves/


Awwwwww

Ahh well only 1 month until Ill start playing the game again then.


Another question, is there a way to see how the blueprints will change?
Just so I can plan ahead?
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1138 - 2014-06-27 22:48:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Gamer4liff wrote:
Greyscale, if you're interested, I made a big ol' effortpost on balancing invention and T2 BPOs here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4620181#post4620181

TL;DR, BPOs get capped at 1-3 ME levels less than the best possible invention ME level, T2 BPOs become carrots for long-term and diligent inventors, helping them improve their productivity. New, now nerfed, T2 BPOs are distributed through some means to active inventors.


I'll try and remember to give this a read too.


Much appreciated. Removing BPOs outright would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here

Dynus
Chattsworth Buccaneers
D0GS OF WAR
#1139 - 2014-07-01 01:27:05 UTC
I read through about six pages of this discussion and got bored. Somebody else may have pointed this out. I think you are going to have to take the following approach to the conversion, rather than the one you are suggesting:

With the current system you can estimate the conversion rate between time and ME.

With the new system there is also a conversion rate between time and level - a logarithmic one.

What is changing, conceptually, is that henceforth research will only be done in specified increments (1-10).

I recommend that the conversion be made based on time, not ME level, and that fractional levels be allowed on converted blueprints.

If your blueprint took 12 days to research to level 20, then in the new system it would also take 12 days to research, to level 6.4. If you want to research it to level 7, then you only have to invest the added 0.6, not the full time to get from level 6 to 7.

If you have a blueprint that took 3 years to get to level 800, then in the new system you will have a BPO with a material level of 11.3. Most people argue that such an improvement is irrelevant. The person that spent 3 years researching their BPO disagrees. Let them keep their marginally better BPO. Those people will celebrate because they have a priceless, irreplaceable BPO. Everybody else will just say "meh."

If you take this approach then you reduce the opportunities to take advantage of the switch-over.

Some fine-tuning required.
Morgus Dei
Cambridge Mountain Rescue
#1140 - 2014-07-09 13:36:52 UTC
I tried to read through at least all dev post but didnt found some answers i am looking for:

1.) A statement is "with the goal that no blueprint gets *worse* as a result of the transition." (POST 469) and its conflict with the capital BPO Problem as already indicated (a.e.in POST 343 page 18): ">The double whammy is our well optimized ME 2-6 capital hull BPOs will suddenly get a load of extra waste." ... "There should not be "a load of extra waste", I am not sure where you're seeing that?"

And keeping this in mind: "Because we want ME to go to 10%, and we want "perfect ME" blueprints in the new system to give the same build cost as a "perfect ME" blueprint in the current system, we need to have the new base cost * 0.9 to be equal to the old base build cost, and to get that we have to divide it by 0.9, which comes to 11.11111...1111%." (Post 331 page 17)

I will take the Orca and its need for its capital cargo bays as Example (assuming perfect production skills):

Old requirement: 34 [Base Value] + 3 [10% waste= 3,4 -> 3 Units] = 37 Units unresearched, perfect reserched ME LVL means the 34 Base Units which is actually reached with an ME LVL of 6.

New: 34 * 1,111111... = 37,7777 -> 38 Base Units unresearched

-9% [ME9% was the former ME6 = perfect] = 34,58 -> 35 runded up (SISI Verified today)
-10% [ME10%] = 34,2

->if you round the 34.2 down it means that the conversion take an perfect (ME 6 OLD) BPO and make an unperfect (ME9% new) BPO out of it as ME10% safe you another unit.
->if you round it up that will means that the orca needs 5 more capital parts (as other components are affected too) to be built in the new system compared to the old one if i did see it right on SISI, regardless if ME9% or ME10%

This happens as you need to round after the "* 1,111..." .As the ME reduction is applied when the BPO is used. Taking the Idea of the transition only:
34 (base old) * 1,111111 (for the new base value) * 0,91 (9% reduction) = 34,37777 mathematic correctly rounded down would be 34, but as i already said, there is an extra step between getting the new Base Value and the ME reduction (round 37,7777... to 38)...

Your last Idea:

Post 873 page 44: "We're currently leaning heavily towards calculating ME for the job as a whole, not per-run, probably with a limiter that requires every run always consumes at least one of every material (to prevent 9 apocs -> 10 paladins shenanigans)."

will not be helpfull as you cant install a production job for so many orcas to completly compensate. If you could get 100 runs you have to use 3458 Cargo Bay units which is 100 * 34,58 from the ME9% calculation above. But you cant install more than 3 at a time in an NPC station. And it would still be more than current (34*100=3400)

On the other side this new Idea has a serious downside: if you round correctly the 34,2 from the ME10% above you need 34 units per run, but 342 units from 10 runs, so 2 units wasted because of making more runs at once... Even with only 3 runs there can be waste if the requirement is rounded down for the production of 1 unit:
3*34,2=102,6 ->103

How do you plan to keep those type of BPOs perfect with the same built costs? Making all sub ME 10 but "perfect" BPOs ME10% would be a solution, changing the material requirements would be another ... but there could still be the problem with your latest idea...



2.) As BPOs can only be used where they are located, what will happen to the BPOs that will come out of research after patch (inserted before patch) if these are locked in a npc station, while beeing researched at a POS in the same system?
- will those appear in the POS (getting unlocked by the same time)
- appear in the station again, still locked (for a last time)
- cause a DB error and disappear? (hopefully just joking)

I ask because its something that isnt tested in SISI as you remove all the POSes and the corresponding jobs and BPOs when you make a new snapshot from tranquility before you install new patches as far as i know / could see.



3.) I have many BPOs locked in a NPC station with manufacturing slots only and use a POS to research/copy them. Now i need to move them to a station with copy slots as i cant use the POS any more or to the POS (depending on Value) Will the Lock/unlock system be overworked? It would be a too long text to describe but have you ever tried to unlock 100s of BPOs ?
its a click fest and take forever. The UI makes it even more complicated, as it dont close the votes, but only the tabs so you have to search for forgotten votes between all the accepted ones. Not to mention the work to lock them again.... and repeat all this when i want to change station because system cost are getting through the roof ....

Any solution for this in sight?