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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

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Theo Sotken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#281 - 2014-04-28 21:34:19 UTC
In order to distinguish their blueprint from the next many researchers over researched their blueprints. While this did make their slightly superior the main effect was that people recognised the extra work put into the blueprint and valued them significantly higher.

When these changes go through CCP will be destroying a significant amount of value associated with these over researched blueprints with no compensation to the holders. Contrast that to holders of T2 blueprint originals who it seems CCP is going out of their way to protect the value of these lottery generated items.

Why are holders of over researched blueprints getting punished (value destroyed) while T2 blueprints have to be protected from these changes. I accept the destruction of a lot of value in my blueprints but at the same time perhaps it is time CCP dramatically reduces the value of the T2 BPO anomalies as well!

It seems CCP is protecting one section of its players (a particularly more established and older set of players) who have and will continue to benefit from items no longer available to newer players.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#282 - 2014-04-28 21:34:32 UTC
Kadl wrote:
Perhaps we can settle for constructive arguments?

I'd like that.

Historically the nature of the argument between the two camps has been along these lines:

Person A: Remove T2 BPOs because they are ruining the game!
Person B: In what way are they ruining the game?
Person A: By ruining it!
Person B: Would you like to support that claim in some way? Do you have any figures, graphs, maybe a pie chart?
Person A: Just remove them already!
Person B: I see.

Once you have witnessed this display a thousand times, you get to thinking that the problem is less with T2 BPOs and more with players that don't think things through.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#283 - 2014-04-28 21:35:42 UTC
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Well, that let the cat out of the bag.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#284 - 2014-04-28 21:37:09 UTC
I'll elaborate on what Aryth just said, as we've been bouncing this around for a few hours.

Currently anyone sensible produces their t2 module/ammo bpo in an Amarr station (.7 build time modifier) or a pos (.75 build time modifier iirc).

It is currently possible, but a stupid idea, to upgrade a minmatar station to tier 3 to get a .4 build time modifier (this may not actually apply to ammo). It's dumb because it's only for modules, and you get limited slots (and for a while you'd max out at like ten total slots) and essentially double your bpo's output. This already happens with t2 ships, which are built in tier 3 amarr stations and obtain that .4 built time modifier.

So what's going to happen? Well, the minmatar station is dumb...but a tier 3 gallente copying factory is not. You'll get a .4 time modifier on your t2 copy job, which is equivalent to the .4 built time modifier for any t2 bpo at all: you can essentially double its production by making two runs in the time it used to take you to build one run. And everyone is going to be making these tier3 gallente copyhouses for their supercaps.

So all those markets where BPOs didn't dominate? Well, what happens when you double the volume of production you can manage with a t2 bpo? I'm guessing "nothing good". And that's what's about to happen: every DCII bpo will be producing double what it produces today.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2014-04-28 21:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aryth
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Could you explain why that is for Goons T2 BPO's.


The optimal place for the BPOS will now be either the Null Tier3 stations. These were not built previously in null as the ROI was hilariously bad on it/and or it jacked up other upgrades you might want to do.

Come patch day dozens of these are going to start springing up across null. If you are a T2 BPO holder you move them to null or sell them to someone who can.

On the funny side, in theory if you value BPOs by payback time they worth double later on.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2014-04-28 21:38:19 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Well, that let the cat out of the bag.

it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#287 - 2014-04-28 21:39:34 UTC
Thanks for putting that out in the light Weasilor. Combined with the fact that the profit margins for any T2 BPO are higher, this is going to make for a significant change in the flow of profit to T2 BPO holders.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2014-04-28 21:40:36 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Well, that let the cat out of the bag.

it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale


He isn't kidding. We spent hours looking at T2 bpos today.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#289 - 2014-04-28 21:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Quote:
This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.

This GREATLY penalizes capital BPO, and any BPO with low material counts.

Example: Dreadnought at ME 6 will become worse, and require more research.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#290 - 2014-04-28 21:43:01 UTC
Leveraging a 60%+ increase to the profitability of a T2 BPO due to lowering the copy time is going to drive an immense amount of invention to unfeasibility. This cannot be allowed to be brought to Tranquility in its current state.

My recommendation is to "bake in" the T3 Gallente Outpost bonus to copying speed into the T2 BPO, such that if you copy at a T3 Gallente Outpost, you receive copies at the same rate that the currently proposed math suggests they arrive (the math that does not take T3 Gallente Outposts into consideration.)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#291 - 2014-04-28 21:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Nevermind
Althalus Stenory
Flying Blacksmiths
#292 - 2014-04-28 21:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Althalus Stenory
Kadl wrote:

Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.

Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).

The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system.

Actually, it's currently "perfect materials + waste factor skill + waste factor material" we are moving, to a "build cost system", I understood this point, but will it still use the waste factor skill (base on the skill material efficiency, previously production efficiency) or not ?

If I understood well, it will still be used, and the "wastage" is just, as you said, the material wastage.

EsiPy - Python 2.7 / 3.3+ Swagger Client based on pyswagger for ESI
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#293 - 2014-04-28 21:45:14 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
This base change is actually increasing prices for things and you'll get more waste under the current math until you get to perfect. See:

http://i.imgur.com/pjHil5G.png

Notice that the blueprint at ME1 currently (to be converted to ME5%) is actually increasing in price. When you multiply the base amount by 1.11 (repeating), then subtract 5%, you don't wind up in the same place.

Formula for column D is just round(B*1.11111111111111111), formula for E is .95*D

Now, once you get to ME10%, they are indeed the same - but when you take my ME1 titan bpo, and give me a ME5% titan bpo, I'm gaining waste. I got 105% of the build cost in the current system, but what I'm getting in the new system is 105.55555555555555% of the old build cost (.95/.9)


Yeah, this is true, due to the way the math concertinas up and down.

Kadl wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
I'll check on recons and command ships. My understanding of the T2 market is that individual items tend to be either completely BPO-dominated or largely invention dominated. In principle I totally recognize that increased supply of cheaper goods can have an impact, but in practice there are (as I understand it) very few cases where this *actually* matters.


Doesn't it actually matter in all cases? In all cases, T2 BPO holders will increase their production rates by 6.25%.

We can cover the spectrum of all possible changes.
1) There are many inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners will increase their market share by 6.25% x current market share, because they can produce more. That will reduce the number of inventors in that market.
2) There are no inventors in the market. T2 BPO owners use their increased production to forestall the day when inventing becomes useful (when demand increases above the T2 BPO production capacity).
3) There are currently only a few inventors because the demand is barely above T2 BPO production capacity. This is your "actually" matters case, where invention no longer becomes profitable at the current time. Similarly to case 2 we can expect invention to happen again in the future when demand increases.

In all of those cases the increased production matters. The immediate effects are different but that should not stop us from considering all of them.


In 1), this is only true if the market size is absolutely fixed, which seems implausible.

In 2), it doesn't matter any time soon at least because most of those markets are not going to significantly expand any time soon

In 3, yes this is the problem case, but I'm not aware of any markets (except possibly recons and command ships) where this is true.

So yes, it always "matters" for a given value of "matters", but my concern is "when does it matter enough in practice that we actually need to change something", and the answer seems to be "very rarely".

(To be clear, we're still considering not adjusting T2 BPOs and/or adjusting them less, but the above reasoning still largely holds IMO :))


To illustrate this point even with a Recon ship, I make Pilgrims and sell them in Amarr.

I can make, with my BPO, around 1 Pilgrim a day.

This doesn't begin to put even a slight dent in the demand for even this less common Recon.

I believe people have a very unclear idea of how many ships are produced by T2 BPO's and are vastly over estimating that number... either that or are thinking there are far more of those T2 BPO's in production than there actually are.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#294 - 2014-04-28 21:45:14 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Care to elaborate? (Even privately?)

MDD

It's simple -- the math that was being presented did not take into account the fact that a fully upgraded Gallente outpost can copy a BPO 60% faster than normal. When they slashed the copy times of T2 BPOs, they did not take into account this extra bonus.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#295 - 2014-04-28 21:45:29 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Well, that let the cat out of the bag.

it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale


He isn't kidding. We spent hours looking at T2 bpos today.

Same here.

I was thinking it was too good to be true anyway. Outpost changes were bound to come along and scupper it all.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2014-04-28 21:47:16 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Well, that let the cat out of the bag.

it turns out there's no high-quality t2 module bpos for sale


He isn't kidding. We spent hours looking at T2 bpos today.

Same here.

I was thinking it was too good to be true anyway. Outpost changes were bound to come along and scupper it all.


Well that and eventually CCP woulda figured it out and realized they just patched in the biggest nerf to invention ever.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#297 - 2014-04-28 21:51:22 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
Kadl wrote:

Currently, there are perfect build numbers for the number of materials needed to build an object. The object also has a waste factor. The production is perfect materials + waste factor materials. ME Research reduces that waste factor. That system will be removed.

Now there will be a based build material cost. ME Research will reduce that cost by up to 10% (back to the old prefect build).

The ease of understanding will be helpful in the new system.

Actually, it's currently "perfect materials + waste factor skill + waste factor material" we are moving, to a "build cost system", I understood this point, but will it still use the waste factor skill (base on the skill material efficiency, previously production efficiency) or not ?

If I understood well, it will still be used, and the "wastage" is just, as you said, the material wastage.


Ah yes clarity. I believe you are correct, but CCP could confirm that.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#298 - 2014-04-28 21:53:04 UTC
Querns wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Care to elaborate? (Even privately?)

MDD

It's simple -- the math that was being presented did not take into account the fact that a fully upgraded Gallente outpost can copy a BPO 60% faster than normal. When they slashed the copy times of T2 BPOs, they did not take into account this extra bonus.

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#299 - 2014-04-28 21:55:08 UTC
Querns wrote:
Leveraging a 60%+ increase to the profitability of a T2 BPO due to lowering the copy time is going to drive an immense amount of invention to unfeasibility. This cannot be allowed to be brought to Tranquility in its current state.

My recommendation is to "bake in" the T3 Gallente Outpost bonus to copying speed into the T2 BPO, such that if you copy at a T3 Gallente Outpost, you receive copies at the same rate that the currently proposed math suggests they arrive (the math that does not take T3 Gallente Outposts into consideration.)

Why not just remove T2 BPO's so this doesn't come up every single time they try to touch industry.
Give everyone who currently holds a T2 BPO a collectors item and 36*1 Month runs worth of BPC's at the same ME/PE(TE) levels.
If three years of production worth that can be run on multiple lines rather than just one, and a collectors item isn't good enough for someone.... those people will never be satisfied unless they get pure bonuses with no nerfs ever so don't even bother trying to please them.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#300 - 2014-04-28 21:55:58 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Querns wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Aryth wrote:
After some internal debate we want to point out something. It isn't 6.25%. It will be more like 60%. I doubt CCP wants T2 BPO production to more than double. So barring some other changes we haven't seen yet this is what will occur.

Care to elaborate? (Even privately?)

MDD

It's simple -- the math that was being presented did not take into account the fact that a fully upgraded Gallente outpost can copy a BPO 60% faster than normal. When they slashed the copy times of T2 BPOs, they did not take into account this extra bonus.

Which would mean I could put out 1.6 BPC's a day instead of building 1 ship per day... and still make less profit (by far) than building and selling the ship myself.



err.. build from the bpc? Oh look 60% more profit?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.