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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#241 - 2014-04-28 20:24:35 UTC
Madfranco wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Madfranco wrote:
Edit: Greyscale answered to the edited-out part while i posted it

Could you please allow batching (or some kind of stacking at BPC level) of invented BPC, or at least increse the minimummaximum number of some classes of BPC (rigs for example, small ones especially)?

Having to log multiple times in the day to restart production of some T2 items even when you use the max run decriptor is imho a flawed mechanic.....

And this may even relate to some research jobs, i would really like the batching system used in the actual copy sistem to be estended to production and invention, at least for the shorter run items, as long as i frontload the components....


Blueprint stats are easy to adjust. You want longer max runs on T1 rigs?


I'm bad at writing...

What i was asking for is if it would be possible to batch jobs from multiple BPCs, because actually some BPOs have too few max runs on their BPCs (see Capital parts BPOs), some invented T2 BPCs (E.G.: 8 runs T2 small rig job completion time is 20h at a POS array currently) have similar "tendencies" of forcing you to log multiple times a day to "click" if you want to manifacture from them.

That is the whole point of T2 invention. Suck it up and make a more efficient production chain that you can effectively manage. I don't think industry needs to be dumbed down even further to the lowest denominators.
Qual
Infinity Engine
Sleeping Dragons
#242 - 2014-04-28 20:24:42 UTC
Any chance we will see T1 BPO ME/TE (finally) have an impact on the invetion result?

This would greatly help to even out the huge materials advantage T2 BPO's have over invention. This advantage, on top of the invetion cost itself is the real issue here, not the existence of the T2 BPO's as such. The gap is just to great as it stands now.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#243 - 2014-04-28 20:26:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.
Here you go. There are about 200 systems that match those criteria, or, more relevantly, 289 stations.

Tippia, if it isn't too much trouble, can you run the same query for stations & outposts (or whatever was in your first query) that have manufacturing facilities? I'm looking to see ratio of lab services to manu services, and how the regions compare.

MDD
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#244 - 2014-04-28 20:27:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright, there is only one thing about the changes that I really don't like

Bpos should be better than bpcs. Maybe only a few percent. But there should some kind reward for building from a bpo in a pos.

For small stuff the improvement is already there. Building from a bpo essentially means less effort. But for bigger stuff that changes rather quickly.

You can react more rapidly to changing market conditions and go direct to manufacture rather than having to maintain a constant backlog of BPCs.

Also you would save on the cost of making the copies, which should be much more significant than the insignificant amount currently charged.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#245 - 2014-04-28 20:27:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would love for someone to go through and give the intersection of high sec systems that offer the complete package of ME, TE, copying, and invention services.
Here you go. There are about 200 systems that match those criteria, or, more relevantly, 289 stations.

Tippia, if it isn't too much trouble, can you run the same query for stations & outposts (or whatever was in your first query) that have manufacturing facilities? I'm looking to see ratio of lab services to manu services, and how the regions compare.

MDD

All industry slots are in there. Player-placed outposts are not part of the static data dump, so no luck there.
By the looks of it, only 15 station offer research services but not manufacturing, whereas ~900 stations offer manufacturing but no research.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#246 - 2014-04-28 20:28:55 UTC
A general rebalance of BPC max runs wouldn't go amiss at all. Capping T2 BPO's max runs at the number of runs achieved from an invented BPC without decyptor could be an interesting twist in the tale... Death by clickfest and inconvenient build lengths Twisted.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#247 - 2014-04-28 20:31:53 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
man i gotta say this is a VAST improvement: no longer will we have to explain to people that a bpo that's ME200 is basically the same as one that's ME 20, not 10x better. I will have to do the math though on how best to exploit the changeover :v:

Although I agree, in a way, having people research BPO's to ME 100 when only ME 10 was necessary, was a kind of tax on stupidity which I approved of.

i think it's more like poor feedback from the game. one stat shouldn't be telling the player 'this is totally getting better!' when it's not
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#248 - 2014-04-28 20:32:31 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright, there is only one thing about the changes that I really don't like

Bpos should be better than bpcs. Maybe only a few percent. But there should some kind reward for building from a bpo in a pos.

For small stuff the improvement is already there. Building from a bpo essentially means less effort. But for bigger stuff that changes rather quickly.

BPOs are better than BPCs: they don't wear out.

MDD
XerXes SX
TriOptimum Citadel
#249 - 2014-04-28 20:38:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Lena Lazair wrote:
Quote:
This would mean that ME/TE 1 become ME 5%/TE 10%, ME/TE 5-9 become ME 9%/TE 18%, and anything over ME/TE 10 currently move to ME 10%/TE 20%.


So if I have a blueprint with ME 4 that is currently perfect under the existing system, it will now require days/weeks to re-perfect it? That seems really odd.

What I expected to see is that the perfect ME/TE for any given blueprint be calculated, and then blueprints transitioned to the new system based on a ratio between their current number and the perfect number. E.g. if I have a blueprint at ME 4, and a perfect ME would be 5, then I'm at 0.8 and should get an ME 8% (or TE 16%) on the new blueprint.

Obviously you won't be able to go with a 100% perfect value as the upper end for a lot of things, since many blueprints have ridiculous upper-ends on that scale, but some reasonable margin would probably make most people happy (e.g. 95% or 98% being the "perfect" ME used to scale the top end of the ratio).


If it's perfect currently, it'll be perfect after the change without further research. ME4 currently gives you an 8% waste reduction, so it'll be converted to ME 8% in the new system. If it was effectively perfect at ME4 before, it'll be effectively perfect at ME 8% after.

Am I explaining this clearly enough?


No - so what will happen if I invent further to ME 10%, no more changes?
Since there is no more waste ME 0% is base so very ME level means less material consumption, so there must be a different between 8% and 10%.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2014-04-28 20:39:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright, there is only one thing about the changes that I really don't like

Bpos should be better than bpcs. Maybe only a few percent. But there should some kind reward for building from a bpo in a pos.

For small stuff the improvement is already there. Building from a bpo essentially means less effort. But for bigger stuff that changes rather quickly.

You can react more rapidly to changing market conditions and go direct to manufacture rather than having to maintain a constant backlog of BPCs.



Having a big backlog of bpcs enables faster reaction to a changing market.

Bpos only make things easier to maintain. That's fine for ammo and t1 modules which are usually cheap and don't need much research anyway. You can easily justify putting these in a pos for the benefit.

but it's not so fine for battlecruisers and anything bigger. Those bpos will never see a pos after undergoing research. And even the research part will likely take place in an outpost.

I want to see pos being killed for the bpos they contain.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#251 - 2014-04-28 20:40:11 UTC
I disagree with the upwards scaling wall of the level progression.

In the current system ME/PE 10 can be obtained rather easily, in the proposed system it will take a long time.

The following numbers are using no modifiers on these research time to ME 10
Frigate 13D 21H 20m After 102.24 Days
Cruiser 27D 18H 40m After 204.48 Days
BS/BC 41D 16H After 306.72 Days
Carriers/Dreads 1.62Y After 11.94 Years
Supercarriers 3.25Y After 23.89 Years
Titans 6.49Y After 47.81 Years

Take into account these numbers are using no skills or pos to show base values, its possible someone could have bought a titan BPO and researched it in a pos for 3.5 years and gotten it to ME 10. The proposed new scaling system not only rewards players who invested heavily in the old system but punishes any new players trying to get into production.

Primarily the level scaling on levels 6-10, Rather than continued exponential increases it would be better to plateau out with minor increases per level, which is what we get now.

Since ME 1 currently is Now Level 5 then the research time from level 1 to level 5 should be roughly equal to the total research time of ME 1 which i think has been achieved, but the research times Level 10 is a nightmare, you're trading diminishing returns in material saved for soul crushing time wasting, which i believe is just bad policy, at least try to keep the soul crushing time wasting to what it is now rather than punish everyone that hasn't done something yet.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#252 - 2014-04-28 20:41:27 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I am not fully familiar with POS's, but I seem to recall that you could copy faster on a POS than on a station.

This speed up was non trivial as I recall.

For a T2 BPO owner, would it now make sense to run a POS to make copies
(albeit at the cost of daily log ins to make sure that you have not been dec'd)

Would this impact the market?

Many people that produce from T2 BPOs do so at a POS already, so they are already getting that productivity bonus.

It looks to me like these changes will reduce T2 BPO output overall because more people will choose the simplicity and safety of NPC station production over the risk, cost and complexity of POS production.


They would, if BPC copy time wasn't receiving a huge buff for T2 BPOs.

They will have to copy at a NPC station to reduce the risk, which means that the copy speed limits their production.


I like how we are both avoiding pointing out the big thing. We won't tell if you don't.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#253 - 2014-04-28 20:41:51 UTC
RE: conversion of old high-ME/PE BPOs to new BPOs (apologies if this has already been suggested)

Trying to reimburse players for time invested in high levels of ME/PE would indeed be complicated.

CCP is proposing to switch ME/PE to a 10-level X rank system, similar to the SP system. So, perhaps an easier solution would be just to have a ME/TE reimbursement bank, which can be applied to any BPO - ie. similar to the SP reimbursement bank that we have now.

Points for the bank can calculated as simply as subtracting 10 from the current ME/PE level, and multiplying the remainder by the new ME/TE rank.

So, a ME 50 BPO, which will become a rank 2 BPO under the new scheme, would result in a ME10% BPO + 80 [(50 - 10) x 2] ME points. The recovered points could then be used to research up 4 other rank 2 BPOs to ME 10%.

And, ofc, the conversion can be easily scaled for better balance.

So, for example, instead of using ( "current ME" - 10 ) x "new rank", this could be ("current ME" - 10) / 5 * "new rank", which means that you'd only get 16 ME points, ie. a ME 50 BPO would convert to a ME 10% BPO plus enough points to research another rank 2 BPO to ME 8%.
Zeera Tomb-Raider
Vega Farscape
#254 - 2014-04-28 20:42:08 UTC
Hope you change name on bonus decryptors for invention,if not i say you are Esoteric cryptic Parety.who ewer com up with those names must have had to mutch strong drinks at a late nigth.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#255 - 2014-04-28 20:42:45 UTC
Quick question:

How long will it take to create 20 max run copies of an Expanded Cargohold I?

Right now, it's about 100 hours.

To fully manufacture that, (at PL 0), that's around 800 hours to manufacture.

I assume you're not going to screw the the numbers to increase the copy time here? As that would destroy invention.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#256 - 2014-04-28 20:43:06 UTC
Seith Kali wrote:
So far we have no indication that copy speed is getting bonuses anywhere, Pos or other wise

POS facilities will have to provide some advantage over NPC stations. I'm happy to wait for final information on what that is.

Seith Kali wrote:
I ask you again, how many do you have?

Lots. I find when discussing matters like this it helps to have some first hand experience.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#257 - 2014-04-28 20:43:31 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
Alright, there is only one thing about the changes that I really don't like

Bpos should be better than bpcs. Maybe only a few percent. But there should some kind reward for building from a bpo in a pos.

For small stuff the improvement is already there. Building from a bpo essentially means less effort. But for bigger stuff that changes rather quickly.

You can react more rapidly to changing market conditions and go direct to manufacture rather than having to maintain a constant backlog of BPCs.



Having a big backlog of bpcs enables faster reaction to a changing market.

Bpos only make things easier to maintain. That's fine for ammo and t1 modules which are usually cheap and don't need much research anyway. You can easily justify putting these in a pos for the benefit.

but it's not so fine for battlecruisers and anything bigger. Those bpos will never see a pos after undergoing research. And even the research part will likely take place in an outpost.

I want to see pos being killed for the bpos they contain.

You either missed or didn't understand what I wrote. Making BPCs now costs a significant amount of isk, even in a POS. Also with copy and manufacture time being equalised, if you want to produce from BPCs you are going to be constantly using all your science slots to copy instead of doing other things. That is a pretty big drawback, and therefore a big advantage to producing direct from BPOs.
Seith Kali
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#258 - 2014-04-28 20:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Seith Kali
Bad Bobby wrote:
Seith Kali wrote:
So far we have no indication that copy speed is getting bonuses anywhere, Pos or other wise

POS facilities will have to provide some advantage over NPC stations. I'm happy to wait for final information on what that is.


No scaling costs is probably enough, no?


Bad Bobby wrote:

Seith Kali wrote:
I ask you again, how many do you have?

Lots. I find when discussing matters like this it helps to have some first hand experience.

I hear a vested interest goes a long way too.

Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege. 

Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#259 - 2014-04-28 20:45:39 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Odd question, but does this mean that researched BPCs, now having defined levels, could be sold directly on the market since there are only a static number of ME/TE combinations for each BPC?


Unfortunately no, we aren't quite at that point yet. We'd have to have a separate DB type for every combination of ME and TE research, which proliferates our blueprint count rather badly (ie 100x more blueprints).


What's a few million database rows between friends?

The current contract system is so square peg/round hole as to be a decent impediment to more wide-spread usage.

If you're looking to get more players involved in industry and wanting BPCs to be a larger part of the equation, having a "Blueprint Market" kind of interface for BPC sales would be a huge benefit. Whether integrated into the existing market or something entirely new, it would benefit everyone from buyers to sellers. The contract arena could still be used for "BPC packs" or other constructs where it makes sense but for selling stacks of BPCs it gets my vote.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#260 - 2014-04-28 20:47:48 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Quick question:

How long will it take to create 20 max run copies of an Expanded Cargohold I?

Right now, it's about 100 hours.

To fully manufacture that, (at PL 0), that's around 800 hours to manufacture.

I assume you're not going to screw the the numbers to increase the copy time here? As that would destroy invention.


I would assume they are looking at increasing the copy time here. Perhaps the max run should be modified to make things more managable?

It seems clear to me that they will need to consider many max run issues as they make these changes.