EVE Information Portal

Perhaps you missed the part where we have taken wave after wave of nerfs to our income. Long before we received any kind of buff. Yet even though we were losing trillions in a tech nerf we lobbied the hardest for it. I know this might be hard for you to understand but you are not just inferior because you aren't successful. You are inferior because you do not care what is right for the overall game but just what is right for your chosen playstyle.

The doublewhammy of shameful.

risk is not the be all and end all. It is simply something requiring effort to manage (or the acceptance of the losses with respect to the expected gains). Deep inside goon territory just how much risk is there in reality? You will be able to cover the gates into systems and have advance warning of intruders. No intruders? Then move your goods around with impunity.

Am I expected to believe that fuel for your control towers costs you a fortune? Surely with the highest output of PI resources and the ice fields you can lock down and mine out this shouldn't be a problem? When you have unlimited slots per station you will also have far fewer stations to defend if you choose so.

If I flew to goons null I would be at grave risk for not being blue to you, if I were blue? Suddenly a huge chunk of that risk is mitigated. I'm not complaining about this as you have carved out and controlled this space, but to plead poverty based on risk vs reward? If it was so hard there how do you control so much space? How do you afford it?

The risk vs reward idea doesn't fly in this case. Reducing the effort required to make even more isk in null is simply absurd and I very much hope that doesn't happen (and that is *all* of null, not an anti-goons statement).

Our fuel costs the same as it costs everyone else, because we buy it in Jita. Furthermore, there aren't enough slots available in our empire to produce the amount of fuel that we need.

What, do you think we enslave our line members to provide raw materials for pos fuel? This is not a thing we do.

It is amusing, however, to have random, unaffiliated folks walk in and describe how things work in nullsec, and in particular, in our organization, when they've clearly never spent a day in either.

Corraidhin Farsaidh, you keep positing that someone is saying nulsec should be better at everything. Then going on how that isn't balanced compared to better at everything it can do hisec.

As it stands now, nulsec is absolute crap compared to hisec for everything except pvp, anom ratting, exploration, and building supers/titans. There is literally no reason to do anything else in nulsec.

Because of the risks and effort required, very little resource harvesting gets done. Moons because guess what? A mechanical requirement. Boosters? Another mechanical requirement. Hybrid Polymers? Another mechanical requirement. Want to build supers or titans? You must own sov because Dominion sov mechanics say you have to, despite common sense saying "Why do I have to plant a flag to build a ship?" Why can't I build in Antarctica if I want to?

I have lived in nulsec continuously for 5 years. I can promise you, very little of its available industrial capacity is ever being used. Factories lay abandoned and empty. Refineries are dormant and cold. No one wants to do those activities because the risk and effort far outweigh the rewards.

Is mining worth it in nulsec? Sure. ABCs and Dark Glitter litter nulsec. We could easily crush all demand in hisec for the reined products if we could safely harvest even a fraction of what nulsec could provide. But because of the risk, costs, and immense effort of moving it all from nulsec, it will never happen. 1000m3 per block of ice? WTF? Who would want to move all that?

Balance isn't about having item X in region A, item Y in region B, item Z in region C, and then saying "Let there be balance!" Its about effort+risk vs reward.

You want to throw PvE into the balance equation? Okay. Just look at the isk generated by running level 4 missions. It is competitive with PvE in nulsec and has far less risk. Where do you think all those blinged-out navy faction battleships come from?

But pirate faction battleships come from nulsec and are worth more! Yes they are. They are worth more not because they are only available from high-end exploration plexes and pirate NPC missions. But because the people that bring them in from nulsec take greater risks and put in more effort to get them. This is balance.

Hisec incursions are historically one of the biggest money-making PvE activities in Eve. They see far more activity than anything you get in losec or nulsec, despite the rewards being significantly higher.

What about carrier ratting? No, you can't do it in hisec. But those that do it in nul are taking greater risks. Every blops pilot in the game wants to hotdrop a ratting carrier. The carrier pilot's reward for the greater risk is greater income. Balance is maintained. You want lower risk, you get lower income. Hell, it isn't even any more effort than ratting in a T1 BS. Its a pure risk vs reward issue.

I suppose the hisec version of carrier ratting might be station trading. Ask around. What is the single most profitable action in Eve from a risk+effort vs reward standpoint? Many many players will say either level 4 missions in a T1 BS or station trading.

Hisec is great for everything that can be done there, and it is very low risk. Nulsec is much higher risk. So, yes, whatever you can do out in nulsec should generate a proportionately higher return on investment compared to hisec.

And now, you will have unlimited factory slots. Holy crap. UNLIMITED! The only thing you have to worry about is is it worth it to pay the fee in a congested system, put up a POS and pay a flat rate per hour, or go to a less crowded station? Oh, that's right! No more faction standings requirement! And look at how many factory slots you have!

In nulsec, we don't have that option. We can put one station in a system and we have to choose which type. Do we want a refinery, a factory, an office station, or a research station? We get to choose one and only one, and then we are stuck with it forever.

You want to compare balance? Tribal Band dropped 4 stations in Period Basis while we owned it. We paid for every TCU, IHUB, SBU, station upgrade, capital ship assembly array, jump bridge, cynosural field jammer, pirate detection array, and every other "advantage" that we had through hard work and effort, and we did it while we had every hostile entity From NPC Fountain, Delve, Stain, and Stainwagon in Paragon Soul breathing down our necks.

And to make it clear, there were a lot of us that really appreciated the effort our allies went through to get us that space. Hell, I even appreciate the pizza guys that came down from Delve to re-educate the brothers.

How much isk and effort did anyone in hisec have to spend to enjoy the perfect refineries with sub-par skills, level 4 missions, multiple stations per system with hundreds of manufacturing and research slots and dozens of offices in almost every system, gate guns, station guns, faction police, no bombs, no bubbles, and the ultimate mother-lode of all protection services, CONCORD?

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Forge
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Period_Basis

Do those maps looked balanced to you?

If you want to live in hisec, fine. I can't stop you. But the next time you want to cry about how hisec is getting nerfed and how unbalanced the game is becoming towards nulsec, look at what you have, then look at what we have, and then ask yourself what have I done to deserve all this absolutely awesome space?

When he says that they might cost you a fortune, he is implying that you are paying a large percentage over the fair market value, presumably because you don't have enough local resources to draw from in order to keep up with demand.

Everything looks like a nail when you're a hammer. Think, Weaselior, before you post.

Where in this adorable vignette does the ice miner get paid? Where does the PI guy get paid? Those people don't mine for the benefit of the alliance alone -- they want money for their efforts, or they're not going to do it. Furthermore, anyone doing this is under no coercion to sell to the alliance even IF it is buying -- if our prices aren't competitive with Jita minus JF fees, it doesn't go to us.

If you think that any sane individual would agree to be held to any of those demands, you're part of a lengthy object lesson in why we have nullsec, and you don't.

Thanks for the detailed reply which clarifies many things for me. I have already stated that if nulsec industry is not viable it should be made so and I have no issue with that. I have on many occasions posted against the ability to farm any kind of mission, it annoys me that people can do so and the eve survival can even exist. What is the point of a mission where you can go AFK?

The station issue of single type per system I didn't know about, I was under the impression that the moons within the system could provide whichever service was required by placing online refineries, labs, reactors, whatevers. That is an issue with station viability in null rather than an advantage that hisec has. It is my understanding that with the new POS S&I system the stations in every system will have the same capabilities and no slot limits upon them. This will benefit all systems equally.

In terms of refining I have no argument with the skill changes ( and I think it was probably 1 month to 6 weeks to get the skills for perfect refining plus about 2 months grinding standings). It made no sense for the refining skills to have little value above a certain level.

As for CONCORD they are a punishment service not a protection. If someone wants to kill you in hisec they just bring enough gank fit ship to do the required damage in the required time. Concord cannot stop them, only destroy them afterwards by which time it is too late for the target. If my understanding is incorrect here please do explain why.

I live in hisec because it suits me to do so for now. If my available time for the game drops then I will simply adapt my skills and activities to compensate. Most of my goods however come from regular jaunts to losec and I have no aversion to risk or effort. Missions bore me, station trading would bore me to tears. I am learning to carry out every career within Eve as and when the opportunity arises. I welcome the S&I changes as it gives me something new to learn and adapt to. I certainly don't cry about hisec being nerfed since I simply look for the opportunities that any change brings for me in my current position and make the best of it. Ultimately whether null has an S&I buff or not will not affect me as I will simply work around any changes.

I raised the question as to *why* null should be better for everything and this i still a valid question. I have not been swayed by the comments and responses here that this is a good thing for the game. Once someone moves to null sec and can enjoy every career there for greater reward why would they ever return to the other areas of space? They would have no need or reason. Hisec folks are already treated as second class citizens by many people. This is not a good way to persuade people to stay in the game after trial. I would much prefer there to be actual reasons to use each area of space for its particular advantage, and likewise there to be reasons for people to travel between the regions.

Then complain to CCP that they should have fixed that earlier. I never understood why they put such terrible stations into the game in the first place or at least have upgraded them long ago. CONCORD exists in 00 sec. But as it is player driven, you actually have to be in fleets to respond to threats.

You also compare the wrong regions. Instead of the least busy 00 region and the busiest region in the game you should have compared the either busiest regions of High sec and 00 sec (which is an entirely different region and would make The Forge look less extreme.) or the least busy regions, where High sec and such 00 regions look very much alike.



Sure, they want money, and you can give them money. Even Jita prices. And it would still be cheaper and less effort for you, since you don't have to ferry all the stuff from Jita to 00 sec - you only have to ferry it around in 00 sec with your JBs.



Very interesting numbers. And now we level the game on the 00 sec numbers where player were and still are too lazy to build proper outposts? Or where players failed to demand better stations to make industry more worthwhile a long time ago?

For the records: It is entirely the players fault that the 00 sec station landscape is what it is at the moment. But instead of fixing that, other areas where players actually cannot influence things (even though they are there plentiful) are changed. Very reasonable.

Right, you naturally use the JF. Unless you have set up a JB specifically for such a purpose, which is what I would do for a couple of systems to make mining this ice easier.

Unfortunately I would chose Jita as well. But why is the 00 market hub anemic to begin with? Is it really that easy to jump stuff from Jita to Tenal or Period Basis all the time?

It has to do with the fact that a lot of materials are only available in certain regions. For example, you can't get most datacores in any one particular area of nullsec (and the kinds you do get are only for a sharply limited set of T2 items,) you can't get all moon minerals in any one particular area (r32s are regional,) ice is regional, drug gas is regional (this is a crappy example but it has still been relevant to the maybe dozen people in 10 years of eve who have ever made drugs.)

All these goods have to be imported. Since you have to import the materials, it makes a whole lot more sense to just import the finished goods, which have been assembled by highsec, with its superior logistics, availability, facilities, and lower risk, and the ability to outsource the taking of the very risk you do endure via properly collateralized public courier contract.

Giving nullsec a slight leg up against the norm gives us a chance to try and claw out some of that for ourselves, rather than be beholden to highsec for everything.