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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1021 - 2014-04-16 20:07:14 UTC
industrial foreman wrote:
What are the chances everyone says F it and just builds in Jita 4-4 and pushes the 14% cost onto the items?

Zero. Because not everyone is that stupid and the intelligent producers will immediately and savagely undercut the unintelligent ones.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#1022 - 2014-04-16 20:08:45 UTC
How will extra materials be worked in if they are not a normal part of the required materials? An example would be cloaks, they now require a Hermetic Membrane as an extra material but not as part of their regular materials. How will the extra cost of the PI material "Hermetic Membrane" be worked in to the regular cost which only consists of standard minerals?
Atlantis Fuanan
Wormhole Research Inc.
#1023 - 2014-04-16 20:11:36 UTC
I love it so far! Clearly shakes up Industry and probably this will shake up everything in this universe. :D

[u]Things that would make EVE better:[/u] NRDS - Remove Local - Balance Cloak - Sov-Mechanic Changes - Less QQ
Ming The Merciless
Orbital Reclamation Services
#1024 - 2014-04-16 20:12:33 UTC
Quote:
You can choose to paint a huge bullseye on your corp by having research mods on your POS, and STILL pay more than you today, or you can uproot everything, set up shop like everyone else in a system with infinite research slots, and pay a huge huge premium on that.


Your assuming you can find a station that has a corp office slot free in a system even in the same region you are in. For example there are only 32 stations out of 432 stations in the Metropolis region that even have copy/ME/PE research slots. Many of them close to full and will be full when and if this change goes thru as planned.

Even if they added copy/me/pe research slots to all stations gone would be the day that any corporation with a corp office and a free moon in the system would be able to spend Isk/effort/risk and put up their own POS to make up for the lack of NPC/CCP provided services and have better services at their disposal.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something or need to wait for further info but nobody has pointed it out on my post 15 pages ago.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1025 - 2014-04-16 20:13:19 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
How will extra materials be worked in if they are not a normal part of the required materials? An example would be cloaks, they now require a Hermetic Membrane as an extra material but not as part of their regular materials. How will the extra cost of the PI material "Hermetic Membrane" be worked in to the regular cost which only consists of standard minerals?
Ok, I seriously don't understand this question. Why would they not be moved over as is (after applying skills for efficiency and such)?
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1026 - 2014-04-16 20:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadl
No slots means a new system which we know extremely little about. I am sure that CCP will answer all of these in time (no need to bother answering anything here yet). Still there appear to be certain assumptions about how the remaining systems will be structured based on how they currently work. Assumptions can make fools of everyone and CCP comes up with innovative solutions.

Will congestion charges be based on specific locals (station, POS), system, other region (all of null sec), or other information (standings)?

Will there be any other congestion effects (increased time)?

Will other things delay production of an installed job?
The industry window mock up has what appears to be an active job with an hour glass on it.

What are the effects of installing a job with insufficient materials (there at beginning, when item completed)?
The industry window mock up shows a blue print which can apparently only be run four times, and seems to be currently running.

Will increased industry efficiency require multiple accounts (or sharing your BPOs with "friends")?
After all "more people should have advantages over an individual" producer.

What does base item cost actually mean (for the 0-14% formula), particularly for research, copying, invention (14% fees to invent)?

Will there be a gimmicky whole in the cost calculation which will allow a large alliance to reduce cost for it's doctrine ships?

Will high sec stations have stats which modify production (POSes and Outposts will)?

What stats could be modified (time, efficiency, cost)?

Will the various outposts really be balanced?
We know a maxed Minmatar station will have 20% mineral efficiency over high sec stations. Why go through the effort of moving those materials when your max production cost is only 14% of the end cost?

Who will get the leaked information and maximize their own wealth?

What sort of holes will exist for individuals to exploit innocently use to play the game the way CCP intended?

Another Question:
How much easier will it really be and will it be easy enough that we can just have some alts deal with it while we play with spaceships?
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#1027 - 2014-04-16 20:21:34 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:
How will extra materials be worked in if they are not a normal part of the required materials? An example would be cloaks, they now require a Hermetic Membrane as an extra material but not as part of their regular materials. How will the extra cost of the PI material "Hermetic Membrane" be worked in to the regular cost which only consists of standard minerals?
Ok, I seriously don't understand this question. Why would they not be moved over as is (after applying skills for efficiency and such)?


Maybe they will, they just have not said. Their only example was with a apples to apples comparison. Maybe they will remove things like PI that were added and not part of the normal build requirements.
Droidyk
Maniacal Miners INC
The Legends In The Game
#1028 - 2014-04-16 20:24:50 UTC
I love the UI so much, not just that tho Lol The happiest day of all.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1029 - 2014-04-16 20:25:09 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:
How will extra materials be worked in if they are not a normal part of the required materials? An example would be cloaks, they now require a Hermetic Membrane as an extra material but not as part of their regular materials. How will the extra cost of the PI material "Hermetic Membrane" be worked in to the regular cost which only consists of standard minerals?
Ok, I seriously don't understand this question. Why would they not be moved over as is (after applying skills for efficiency and such)?


Maybe they will, they just have not said. Their only example was with a apples to apples comparison. Maybe they will remove things like PI that were added and not part of the normal build requirements.

"As such, all materials currently listed as Extra Materials will become regular materials instead" states all materials, not just minerals or PI components, so I'm not seeing why it would be reasonable to assume the 2 would be segregated or treated differently.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1030 - 2014-04-16 20:25:35 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1031 - 2014-04-16 20:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Ming The Merciless wrote:
Quote:
You can choose to paint a huge bullseye on your corp by having research mods on your POS, and STILL pay more than you today, or you can uproot everything, set up shop like everyone else in a system with infinite research slots, and pay a huge huge premium on that.


Your assuming you can find a station that has a corp office slot free in a system even in the same region you are in. For example there are only 32 stations out of 432 stations in the Metropolis region that even have copy/ME/PE research slots. Many of them close to full and will be full when and if this change goes thru as planned.

Even if they added copy/me/pe research slots to all stations gone would be the day that any corporation with a corp office and a free moon in the system would be able to spend Isk/effort/risk and put up their own POS to make up for the lack of NPC/CCP provided services and have better services at their disposal.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting something or need to wait for further info but nobody has pointed it out on my post 15 pages ago.


I have not seen any comments from the dev's*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal. to say you are incorrect.
Further, a lot of those copy slots are in low sec. I use a couple stations smack dab in FW areas.
And when this is all done, people will be faced with high sec war dec's for their BPO's, or facing a ton of campers on gates trying to nail people heading back to "safe" high sec with BPC's.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1032 - 2014-04-16 20:28:01 UTC
Dinsdale, isn't it just possible (however unlikely) that CCP might be trying to end up with viable industry in all parts of space?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
D'Kelle
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1033 - 2014-04-16 20:29:52 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Killian Redbeard wrote:

Why change the POS modules to have infinite number like the NPC stations? The Arrays have a set powergrid and CPU usage on the Tower. These should not be able to run infinite jobs even at scaling costs.

because you're abolishing the entire concept of slots so you have the same system everywhere instead of a stupid and archaic system on pos

A POS i.e. a Tower currently, is stupid i.e. poor almost to the point of senile AI and archaic basically for the simple reason being CCP have never updated them effectively and efficiently to keep pace with the rest of the game mechanics they have unleashed or modified the only update they received was the fuel blocks idea because the newbies couldn't get to grips with efficient use of the items we used before(so it was dumbed down) it seems as more newer players come on board the more babyish the mods become, soon no one will have to use his/her brain to play any more there will be less and less personal initiative and skill needed at doing things better than someone else. What happens in RL is our the ability to work out something most take as is, so you discover a tweak and work out for yourself how to work it better for yourself. It is becoming all to bland, sandbox pah! more like "Toy" box. a simple example was POS fuel prior to (fuel blocks), a canny POS owner could if he chose too, might, chance off lining certain modules or two to save on the Liq Oz and Heavy Water usages, That meant Taking Risk, a chance but could help balance your books on POS costs at certain times, that to me was an element in EVE that was good, your POS may have been at risk more but that did meet with Risk vs Gain concepts. That kind of Risk/chance taking took "balls" to do it, but it could be done if you needed to, now we have std fuel blocks, flat costs, flat choices lost risk taking for gain, lost initiative to the individual poorer quality game mechanics. and that is only one example.
Oxide Ammar
#1034 - 2014-04-16 20:30:23 UTC
CCP is going to overhaul the POS arrays? too many arrays to handle in one POS especially if we want to manufacture in POS after expansion. Can CCp look into squeezing this list of arrays or rework the CPU/PG of towers especially the caldari ones.. it's like go caldari tower in hisec or gtfo.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
ST Mahan
Doomheim
#1035 - 2014-04-16 20:35:11 UTC
As this sinks in I can say that I'm finding more to like about the upcoming changes. At the very least it is good to see this game play area get a significant amount of work.

Only concern will be to see the changes made to Cap BPC's with regards to time to copy & number of runs.

Eagerly awaiting the upcoming Dev Blogs; and already making a few new moves in game to prep for changes. :)
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#1036 - 2014-04-16 20:36:17 UTC
Two step wrote:
Two step wrote:
Given that you want people to move to POS industry, any chance you can just delete the 8 million different POS factory things and make a more sensible set of them? Give people efficient/fast and just a few sizes, but don't make us anchor 15 different stupid factories and move stuff between then?

Also, as was mentioned above, people *need* to be able to see into their POS inventories remotely, without having to use the API (especially because the assets API is, what, a 6 hour cache time?). The API also currently doesn't return ME/PE levels for BPOs/BPOs, so it isn't a real replacement anyway.


Still waiting for a reply on this from the Devs. It got a lot of likes, I think other people would also appreciate a response.


Your first question is unrelated to this blog. It deals with POS mechanics which will be explained in a later blog.

Your second question has been answered by devs in this thread. Yes, you will be able to view all assets at a POS remotely.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#1037 - 2014-04-16 20:42:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
I'll post it again, because CCP seems to be ignoring this fact.

Office rent in the few select research stations is going to increase astronomically. It isn't so much risk/reward at this point, more of a matter of logistics. Any corporation with a lot of bpo's that currently most of their members can randomly research/copy will need an office in said stations to keep their BPO's in any remotely organized fashion.

Its either that or have all of the bpo's spread across numerous pilots hangers which then have to be micro managed in order to do the same thing. (even worse functionality than trying to use a POS for corp research after this patch)

I see that within a few months of this, the Office rent in those stations will easily justify the fuel to have a POS instead. But with a POS comes the insane headache that will be constantly moving all of the items between which hangers/labs/arrays they will be used in.

Maybe this will work once you fix POS's to be a mini-station with central storage, but until then, imho, this move is going backwards.

And CCP so please tell me that i'll be able to view more than 10 (or so) blueprints at the same time while searching ALL LOCATIONS EVERWHERE! It looks as if the base 'building' section of that screen is a set size, likely meaning that it will be next to impossible to adjust the size of the window that scrolls through blueprints, thus making it a PITA.


*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.
Nightshade Mary
Darkwater Innovations
#1038 - 2014-04-16 20:58:24 UTC
Please correct me if I am wrong, for a pure research POS;

* for a cheap BPO, people might use a POS to research and copy.
* for an expensive BPO, people will likely swallow the increased cost of station copying and research to keep it safe.
* for invention, apart from moving a BPC to a POS, nothing much will change, the output is already there anyway.

For a production POS;

* for a cheap BPO, as above, could be built at at POS.
* for an expensive BPO, likely a BPC will be used to build. Basically an ISK and time sink (provided the BPC is made at a station.)

Don't know what to think of that to be honest. We might actually end up with less starbases.

It will be interesting to observe what the above will mean for the market prices.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1039 - 2014-04-16 20:58:59 UTC
the situations where you need to let your corpmates copy your bpo but won't let them touch it are so few and far between that there will not actually be competition for research offices

people just haven't realized that you don't need research corporations anymore: individuals will do their own research and industrial corps will lock their bpos in factories for building

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Anders Madeveda
Usque Ad Mortem
#1040 - 2014-04-16 21:10:43 UTC
Adellle Nadair wrote:
Quote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.


This is the worst single idea I have ever seen from a dev. DO NOT DO THIS CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!

We already risk a large amount of isk in just having the labs/datacores/decryptors and all of the copies needed out at a pos. Forcing us to either risk a huge amount more than that, or move the bpos to other much more populated stations that are already overpopulated (that don't have corp offices available or available for anywhere near a reasonable price) and incur a high cost that will greatly reduce production profit or negate it all together, is a horrible change. You as devs do not understand the amount of bpos required to make copies for t2 invention. And you clearly don't understand the organization and the necessity of being able to efficiently access bpos and the time commitment that industry already takes. It is incredibly shortsighted and ignorant of you to assume that it is only a slight amount of isk that we will be risking. We use and need easy access to hundreds of bpos to make the copies we need to be able to do invention. Asking us to risk multiple billions in bpos is insane. And no, I know I don't have to keep all of the bpos I am not using at the pos. However, the addition of moving around the needed bpos from the station to the pos adds an additional step and organizational nightmare to an already complicated system. Because of the nature of industry NOTHING you do with the UI and other new features will change this.

This change will also create an additional hassle organizational nightmare for players who need to find or move bpos around. Industry is already complicated enough without having to deal with moving all of the bpos around. DO NOT take away our ability to organize bpos in one central station corp office so multiple characters can easily have access to them and can quickly and efficiently install jobs. DO NOT make us do more work and take more time to do industry jobs.

Another severely overlooked issue that this creates: This removes the ability of safely sharing bpos by locking them down in corp hanger in a station. BPOs can't be locked down at a pos. This change will limit how and where we can play severely. It forces people who want to play together to use certain systems and certain stations, to pay for spots at those stations and it practically makes setting up a pos a waste of time and effort, because it limits its usefulness. In the culture of eve (griefers/corp thieves/all) this change removes several much needed elements of safety that allow us to enjoy playing and interacting with a larger player base.

If you have decided to do this, as is suggested by other statements in this dev blog, because you haven't worked out how to deal how the slot change affects pos mods, then DO NOT make this change until you come up with a better solution. Because this is NOT the way to make this change happen.

POSes are expensive, take time, effort and a good amount of isk to maintain already. Forcing us to risk a considerable amount more and in doing so increase the amount of busy work that is required for doing industry is not a good change.

I personally have been playing Eve for 5 and a half years. Industry is one part of the game that I greatly enjoy doing. If this change does go through I will have to seriously consider if it is worth it to keep paying for my 4 accounts. Many of my friends who like this element of the game are already talking about leaving because of this. I sincerely hope that you will not go through with this change and that the other forthcoming industry changes are much more intelligently and thoughtfully crafted than this. If not, you will be losing a large group of your paying customers.


I and my 6 accounts agree 100% with this sentiment, admittedly the picture is incomplete but I can't envision any change that would increase the benefit sufficiently for me to risk my multi billion isk BPO library.