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I read up to p34 this morning, not gone through the rest yet.

With me, it wont be more risk that happens, it will be POS unanchored and 2 accounts of researchers permanently unsubbed.

I have read this thread up to page 27 and I have to say I know what God was thinking with that flood idea. The amount of informed constructive criticism here is completely minuscule. Therefore I thought I would offer some.

First, the good stuff. This is going to be an amazing and wonderful expansion. Thank you CCP. We are seeing a tremendous amount of out of the box thinking. While this is still a revamp expansion like the last few, the changes are so extensive that it truly feels like we are getting something so new as wormholes or capital ships. Of course with so much innovation the chance for creating imbalance is quite high, in contrast with the previous expansions where actual innovation has been minimal, and the revamping accomplished has been definitely successful and positive. Also, because this dev blog is an installment, it's difficult to comment on much of it, particularly when it comes to the effects of the numbers (namely the cost scaling) because these numbers have not been announced. Even when things go live on Sisi, we won't really be able to predict the effects of things on the real market on tranquility because we'll need the real market player base to know how things will turn out. Matthew McConaughey in Wolf of Wall Street: "nobody really knows if the stock is going to go up or down. All this we do is basically ***********."

Yes, old vets will quit because of this, new Indy guys will be attracted. Professions will be destroyed (standings corps) but new ones will be created. People talk about the harm to invention, but for one, invention will be changing in a later expansion, and frankly, when looking to buy T2 BPCs in game I have had trouble finding professional inventors because inventors are really alts and builders do their own invention. Frankly, it sounds like the guy who doesn't want to relocate will buy copies and components from people who can make them cheaper than they can make them themselves, creating more professions and markets as well as decentralizing the market and creating more trade hubs. Overall, the general trend of how things will be will be different, and from my initial ponderings, will likely be better in most ways. And with promises of revamping the Rorqual and invention in future expansions, we know that Indy will continue to get love after the summer. Overall a great situation.

Now for my advice. It's always better to make a smaller tweak that you can tweak again in the future than to make a larger change that you have to undo. Yes, this thinking has resulted in some underwhelming expansions in the last couple of years, and an audacious one like this is a breath of fresh air. However, it might be important to look at things to change small ways, particularly since so much of this expansion can't really be tested until it is actually live on Tranquility. Now all of the things in this category are in the realm of numbers and scaling costs, which are yet to be tackled, so hopefully this advice will be timely. I would suggest that the most significant changes to cost via the scaling costs be limited primarily to manufacturing. Please keep the scaling costs of material and time research as well as copying be very small if not even non-existent. Since the changes to blueprint location will drive builders to use copies, it will be very hard to predict how many copies will be made. It's likely to be astronomical. If making copies are heavily affected by scaling costs, production costs will become harder to predict and a new bottleneck of a different type will be created. I suggest that making copies, in addition to making them faster, not be affected by scaling costs. Also, since extra materials are being moved to normal materials but not being removed, material research will become more important, and I also hope that the cost of material research be minimal. Yes, the idea seems to offer the builder who is concerned about profit to diversify location, but having so many variables affected considerably by scaling costs will force builders to copy in one place, build in another, research in another, etc. this will mean more alts and multiboxing and 1-man corps that perpetuates a building style not available to players who can't afford all the accounts or who aren't already mega rich enough to PLEX all the alts. Adding scaling costs to manufacturing will have the intended effect of creating hubs and fostering diverse location without the extra annoyance. So hopefully scaling costs associated with research and copying will be minimal or non existent.

The UI looks beautiful. I can't wait to learn about it in detail.

Kudos on the removal of standings requirements for hisec POSes. Comments lamenting this are the most ridiculous thus far. However, the need for a mechanic to be rid of the inert POSes is about the most valid point anyone has made here. My suggestion is that they be CONCORDed after 60 days of inactivity. It's the most colorful solution I could think of. And please have an impending CONCORDing of a POS be announced in local with a bookmark so anyone in system can come watch and cheer.

That's about all the constructive criticism I have at this time. I'll say I am most looking forward to the teams blog, as I have a feeling this one is really going to be the true game changer. I have three accounts and have trained all three toons on each account to be functional. However, I only have one true Indy pilot, one combat toon, and one mostly combat multifunctional toon. The rest are just manufacturing and lab slot sources and sell order sources. I have a friend who just can't afford to active multiple training queues or run multiple accounts. He's a one account one toon guy. If he could really build an Indy empire like I have, the game will be much better off.

This expansion took some serious balls. Thanks CCP.

Here are the 3 scenarios that play out.

1. Corporation keeps their BPO's locked down safe and sound in a station, and gets hit with a huge copying fee, completely out their control, as the market demand dictates the fee structure. And you KNOW that the fees will be more than what it will cost to do the copying at the POS, because CSM8 is all about risk / reward. Oh, and when I say more than the cost of doing it at a POS, I am talking about under this new world order where your internal copying costs include the new surcharge you get copying at your own POS. But you do get slightly lower costs if you choose to keep a POS up because you don't need research modules. Of course, the entire corp cam pull up stakes and move further from a trade hub, hoping to find some quiet cheap place. The opportunity cost of that is zero, because time is free in Eve, and no one ever ganks someone moving billions in BPO's.

Result: Much more costly for a corp to copy / research compared to today, but equally as safe, so a NET NEGATIVE.

2. Multi-player corporation decides to move their BPO's out to their POS to take advantage of the much lower costs of using NPC station copying and also the efficiencies of the POS research, whatever they end up to be. Of course, it still costs more than today, since no one anywhere is immune to surcharges of some sort. And as an added bonus, you now have HUGE risk of corp theft since you can't lock down the BPO's. And as another lovely feature, you just pained a big bullseye on your corp by having research mods at your POS screaming "JUICY BPO's HERE, PLEASE WAR DEC US!!!!"

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

3. Single player indy corp decides to move BPO's to take advantage of efficiencies as in scenario 2. Same risks as #2, except no corp theft. Same added cost.

Result: STILL more costly that today, and way way more risk, so a NET NEGATIVE.

There is no scenario here that benefits someone who is casual or serious about industry in high sec.

Of course, we have yet to see the other shoe drop with all the advantages being gifted to null sec with the costing structure, but we already know that each null sec station now has unlimited mfg and research slots.

Looks like mynnna, Malcanis, and the rest of the CSM rammed through the changes they wanted.

I LIKE IT!

Why are you adding cost scaling onto POSes? You already pay for fuel. There is literally zero lore or other fantasized reason to put cost scaling on POSes. I OWN THE POS and I OWN THE ASSEMBLY ARRAY. There is no magical invisible person doing anything other than me. Sure, I can live with only copying from now on at stations, but if you are going to add scaling cost to invention and manufacturing at a POS on top of the fuel cost, then why would I bother having a POS at all? I will just JF to one of the 50+ stations that is under PL / BOT control and manufacture there. The JF fuel cost is negligible compared to the cost of maintaining a POS.

Topes used in 1 Rhea JDC V, JFC V, JF IV: +/- 7k Nitrogen Isotopes

Cost of 1 day for a medium POS: 9600 Nitrogen Isotopes

...and that is just the topes ALONE.


There is literally no reason for anyone with access to multiple null outposts to ever use a POS for invention or manufacturing after this change, unless the tax is stupid high.

A few things you need to consider.
♦ This expansion is many months away. They are giving us time to absorb what is going on. They are giving those attending fanfest time to clarify their needs and questions. They are giving us time to identify issues.

♦ They want to ensure the information is presented clearly, and honestly. This means they can't go all out explaining ever little detail, especially since not all the details are fully worked out. I'd prefer to know now, get my questions together on what I want to know, give them time to address it, and move on from there. Really, you should be happy you are getting this information now, as opposed to after fanfest (which is the normal timeframe).

Lore should always take second place to game balance.

If CCP removes POS lines, and lets you run an infinite number of simultaneous jobs at a POS, with no cost, how do you imagine that will be balanced? Because you pay 300k / hr to run your Medium POS?

Calm down and wait for the numbers. Details will come, and you don't need them this second. Relax, breathe, and smile, *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.

I know there isn't a release date for this expansion but please bear in mind if you are planning to move bpos under research into a POS when this expansion hits the answer needs to be known ideally 3 months in advance otherwise people could find titan bpos moved and being unable to do anything about it other than cancel the job.

Oh and before people say thats an edge case, people with those sort of bpos can afford it etc remember its still over a month for research on say a freighter bpo.

I respectfully disagree with your position. CCP *can* go over every little detail, instead they are transparently attempting to whet an appetite. While I agree that they are instituting a major change to a complex part of the game, I am not content to accept what is spoon-fed to me.

I do not believe it is unfair to ask CCP to release a complete blog for us to digest and one to which the community can pose well considered questions. The piecemeal approach taken to this issue unfortunately conforms with the approach CCP uses with patch releases: "rush it out, unfinished and issue daily patches until we get it right" I am merely asking CCP to take their time and give us a full picture in one shot instead of leaving us to wonder.

Those would be some pretty adventurous tax collectors.