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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#701 - 2014-04-16 01:52:00 UTC
Too many fundamental changes all at the same time, some good some bad. It will be very difficult to figure out what is broken in the system if you change every fundamental aspect of it.

You are changing the interaction of blueprints with poses and Conquerable stations. You are adding non player controlled taxes to nullsec stations (Seriously wtf, let players control 0.0). As you currently have it written your asking people to put potentially hundreds of billions of prints into poses in order to manufacture ./ or copy them. Seems a bit unfair, especially for those involved in capital production as you have managed to add many hours of additional hauling and more risk that the sometimes narrow profit margins are worth.

We already have a huge amount of risk in the form of month (or more) long builds, why do we need to put another 100 bil of risk into the pot in the form of BPOS that we cant lock down (in poses)?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#702 - 2014-04-16 01:55:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
There's a thread of entitlement that seems to be percolating through this forum thread, and I'd like to put it to rest before someone who isn't actually beholden to such irrational thoughts takes it as fact.

Grinding standings does not entitle you to permanent benefits. Your payment for grinding the standings once (or purchasing a standings character on the Character Bazaar) has been years and years of benefit. For some, this is nearly a decade of uninterrupted benefaction. Now, the old, clunky mechanic has been put to rest. While your benefaction is being drawn to a close, you can't simply ignore all the benefits it's given you.

Incidentally, if any of you have characters that have 9.0+ standings with Caldari State and are so oft-put by these changes that you're going to sell your character, contact me privately.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#703 - 2014-04-16 02:04:59 UTC
Has the possibility of only making the act of "copying" allow for the BPO to be in station and the copy job to be at a POS? Any other type of jobs require that the blueprint be at the location.
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#704 - 2014-04-16 02:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: GreasyCarl Semah
I am amazed that CCP would want to change the way POSes are used to research and produce while at the same time changing the way slots work in NPC stations. Wouldn't one change at a time be a little more prudent? Why not go ahead and throw in the walking in stations mod too and swing for the fences?
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#705 - 2014-04-16 02:27:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
There's a thread of entitlement that seems to be percolating through this forum thread, and I'd like to put it to rest before someone who isn't actually beholden to such irrational thoughts takes it as fact.

Grinding standings does not entitle you to permanent benefits. Your payment for grinding the standings once (or purchasing a standings character on the Character Bazaar) has been years and years of benefit. For some, this is nearly a decade of uninterrupted benefaction. Now, the old, clunky mechanic has been put to rest. While your benefaction is being drawn to a close, you can't simply ignore all the benefits it's given you.

Incidentally, if any of you have characters that have 9.0+ standings with Caldari State and are so oft-put by these changes that you're going to sell your character, contact me privately.


And all that baloney is just your opinion.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#706 - 2014-04-16 02:27:20 UTC
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
I am amazed that CCP would want to change the way POSes are used to research and produce while at the same time changing the way slots work in NPC stations. Wouldn't one change at a time be a little more prudent? Why not go ahead and throw in the walking in stations mod too and swing for the fences?

Mainly because one change becomes rather pointless without the other and because many of the mechanics are used in both places so you have to do it all at once.
tiewan
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#707 - 2014-04-16 02:28:50 UTC
Dear CCP,

Your proposal pleases me.

You may proceed.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#708 - 2014-04-16 02:29:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jake Centauri wrote:
So you are flushing the tremendous effort to grind standings to anchor POSes in hisec down the toilet. How will you compensate people for this?

Not at all. It was effort that paid for itself many times over a long time ago. It's a sunk cost and you should be very very happy that you never have to pay it again.

Unless you happen to be among the newer players, who have been grinding standings more recently to put up their first POS.

But, I guess those players are the "lower class" of EVE... lol.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#709 - 2014-04-16 02:31:14 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Unless you happen to be among the newer players, who have been grinding standings more recently to put up their first POS.

But, I guess those players are the "lower class" of EVE... lol.

Then you still have a couple of months' head start on the land rush. Blink
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#710 - 2014-04-16 02:34:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mainly because one change becomes rather pointless without the other and because many of the mechanics are used in both places so you have to do it all at once.


Feel free to elaborate at any time
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#711 - 2014-04-16 02:39:15 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
RIGS!

Rigs and ammo, and that is pretty much it.

You nail it! It is the rat drop that is better than can be built that kills T1 manufacturing, and in turn, that kills T2 manufacturing as industrialists are forced to find something, anything, that is profitable.

I don't disagree, but there are still lots of even non-T2 that are decent for manufacturing:

Some non-T2 stuff that I've built for profit, because they sell to pretty much everyone:
... list deleted for brevity...

I was speaking of T1 *modules* for which there are meta versions available, which make up the bulk of the T1 modules in the game. There are only a handful of modules which do not have a meta version, dropped by NPCs.

I was also speaking of items which can be built and (profitably) sold by new players, who are just getting learning how to manufacture stuff in EVE - not vet industrialists.

If you edit your list accordingly, you'll find it to be much, much shorter.
Boltorano
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#712 - 2014-04-16 02:40:29 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
Grarr Dexx wrote:
While we're talking about unavoidable costs in 0.0 stations, is there a reason repairs can be set to 0? Who is paying the guys patching up your ships? What about the materials needed to bring back structural integrity? It makes no sense.


Nanites.


Where does the nanite paste come from? That stuff isn't cheap you know.
Varun Arthie
Lone Star Warriors
Evictus.
#713 - 2014-04-16 02:46:03 UTC
I there are no longer going to be remote industry jobs then what is going to be of the skill "supply chain management"?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#714 - 2014-04-16 02:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Mainly because one change becomes rather pointless without the other and because many of the mechanics are used in both places so you have to do it all at once.

Feel free to elaborate at any time
The station slot changes are what justifies the POS changes. Without the station changes the POS changes are just unnecessarily punitive to POS owners. And without the POS changes the station slot cost scaling can be risklessly bypassed.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#715 - 2014-04-16 03:18:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Unless you happen to be among the newer players, who have been grinding standings more recently to put up their first POS.

But, I guess those players are the "lower class" of EVE... lol.

Then you still have a couple of months' head start on the land rush. Blink

I don't think they look at it that way, though. More likely, they will see it as a lot of wasted game time, and possibly unsub out of irritation or frustration.

This change - and many other recent and upcoming changes (not just the industry ones) - tend to have a much greater (negative) effect on the newer players. And, every time this happens, we lose a few more players, which isn't good for the continuing health of the game.

So, is some form of reimbursement of the POS standings grind a bad idea? No - in fact, it is a good idea to help retain those younger players.

And, remember that when the learning skills went away, we *did* all get reimbursed for the SP, regardless of how much and for how long we individually benefited from having them trained up.

Everyone wins, no one loses. Best way to (re)design a feature.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#716 - 2014-04-16 03:38:32 UTC
Querns wrote:
There's a thread of entitlement that seems to be percolating through this forum thread, and I'd like to put it to rest before someone who isn't actually beholden to such irrational thoughts takes it as fact.

Grinding standings does not entitle you to permanent benefits. Your payment for grinding the standings once (or purchasing a standings character on the Character Bazaar) has been years and years of benefit. For some, this is nearly a decade of uninterrupted benefaction. Now, the old, clunky mechanic has been put to rest. While your benefaction is being drawn to a close, you can't simply ignore all the benefits it's given you.

Incidentally, if any of you have characters that have 9.0+ standings with Caldari State and are so oft-put by these changes that you're going to sell your character, contact me privately.




This, this, many times this.

Signed - someone that ground out ~6.8 faction-to-player standings with the Gallente Federation, including the first 5.1 purely by storyline missions because I didn't know better at the time.

There is no reason that future players should have to suffer from the utterly un-fun mechanics of standings grinding just to put up a POS. (I also think standings should not have any impact on trading for this very reason, let PVE content have its own rewards, not be prerequisites to participate in the non-PVE aspects of EVE).

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#717 - 2014-04-16 03:52:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It's happening!

I am very scared of this.

Way too many changes coming all at once. I highly doubt CCP has considered the second and third order effects of all of these changes. The easy ones to see are only the beginning. Lock downed BPOs are now doomed to pay the extra fees for being researched or built from as they will be highly unlikely to be actually in a POS since they can't be locked down.

Mineral prices are going to go up as a major source of them will be heavily nerved, reprocessing. And you are nerfing the retrievers and mackinaws a bit too. I see 8-10 isk per grit chunk soon. Maybe that will make mining more profitable, but even as a maxed out miner I rarely mine as it is mind numbingly dull. I just see PVP getting even more expensive.

Also my Corp required standings to facilitate a High Sec POS and that looks like its been a major waste of time. thanks...
I have several years worth of star base charters saved up...another waste

Ok I do like the RAM changes. That makes sense.

Not a big fan of the extra materials either although I think i would rather keep that and my repro rates of loot drops.

Slot removal sounds interesting, but that really lessons the point of a research POS, which is then totally killed off by the not being able to remote research lock downed BPOs in a NPC station.

More commentary in a future post
GreasyCarl Semah
A Game as Old as Empire
#718 - 2014-04-16 03:55:11 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
[quote=GreasyCarl Semah]The station slot changes are what justifies the POS changes. Without the station changes the POS changes are just unnecessarily punitive to POS owners. And without the POS changes the station slot cost scaling can be risklessly bypassed.


Now we are going to make the case that POSes have zero risk. I don't even know why I bother reading the garbage in these threads.
Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#719 - 2014-04-16 04:04:14 UTC
CCP please surprise me and respond to this post.


I really like almost all of this blog.

However.

STANDINGS.

this will be the second or 3rd change to standings that is removing an element from the sandbox.

I would like to see you give standings more meaning and importance. Especially in Highsec. I think it is an interesting mechanic that adds depth to the game-play and creates variety in identity and groups in the game.

It adds a value to the player or corp that has worked to gain standings to anchor a POS in highsec. It used to mean something in FW, and it used to be able to give RP players another layer to judge other players in game.

It seems in regards to standings you keep making the game easier (and I hate to say it but it certainly appears with the direct benefit of assisting the nullsec alliance players.) One of the good balance points was most Nullsec entities were limited in high sec or forced to use smaller alt corps or higher mercs to have a safe highsec POS or industry wing.

I absolutely think that there should be more risk and reward for all activities that occur in Nullsec, but they don't need easier access to run rough shod over highsec. Standings is a good mechanic to help vary the power bases into different areas of the game and I think you should reconsider this change.

Also I did not see you give any good reason for removing it and I think I have presented some good reasons for keeping it.

Zappity
Kurved Trading
#720 - 2014-04-16 04:08:46 UTC
I am entirely supporting of removing the standings grind. I don't think grinding should be part of the game at all.

If you could buy standings (as in tags for sec status) then I wouldn't mind retaining the standings requirement. But not if you have to grind those mind numbing missions.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.