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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#641 - 2014-04-15 23:21:56 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
I'm rather skeptical about how these changes will affect the overall game dynamics - I suspect that insufficient thought has gone into the domino effects that are likely to occur.

I agree and can think of a domino or two that will come crashing down.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#642 - 2014-04-15 23:22:10 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Make it super hard, and super expensive, but with lots of time and effort, we too could become a T2 BPO holder....
That is the system we have now.

I have a small pile of T2 BPOs and I didn't get any of them from the lottery. I bought each of them with isk that I earned in one way or another. The system as it stands is good. The fact that some people don't like it, for reasons that are more often than not based in ignorance, isn't a good reason to change it.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#643 - 2014-04-15 23:22:40 UTC
At long last my dreams are coming true. While many are going to be highly emotional about some of these changes they are necessary to make EVE a better game. I fully expect there to be some nasty surprises for other playstyles and areas of the game in this vision but it will be worth it if they are as well thought out as some of these changes.

Either this CSM is the most effective one there has ever been, or CCP's new hires are injecting very good ideas at last.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#644 - 2014-04-15 23:27:54 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
I would also like to hear how you are going to fix T1 module manufacturing, which has been moribund for years.

You don't still expect new players to jump right into T2 module manufacturing or ship building, do you?



There's not a great deal they could do to fix it.

Anyone can manufacture T1 things. So it's a race to the bottom.

T2 is somewhat gated with skills, so it's not quite such a race.


The reason that T1 manufacturing has such low profit margins is due to two factors:

1) The low investment of player time in the production process
2) The low investment of manufacturing slot time in the process.

Want to make 1000 units of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 1? Once you have a researched BPO, It takes 5 or 6 clicks (1 minute player time, 3 minutes if you need to place buy orders on the minerals), and ~100 production line hours.

The only way to make the process profitable (and I do not want to see this happen) is to make it either as player time intensive as T2 production (~15 clicks to build 10 units of EANM II) and/or as production line hour intensive as T2.

Not to mention T2 requires less skills than T1, not more. T1 margins are so low that you must have Material Efficiency 5 and very, very good trade skills and trade standings (which require PVE combat skills to earn efficiently). T2 just requires 4 level 1 skills to 5 (Science the only one a combat pilot wouldn't already have), a few datacore and trade skills to 3 and Material Efficiency to 4.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#645 - 2014-04-15 23:28:04 UTC
Halia Thorak wrote:

Its the weeks of research and understanding the market and refine your production lines to make everything profitable. Remove the needs for POS's and remove then need for invention and now its just T1 manufacturing with more items.. that are nicely displayed for your convenience.
.


So, it is only profitable because it is stupidly cumbersome to figure out? 2 spreadsheets = no profits. 20 spread sheets = profits... so we need it to take 20 spreadsheets.

Hmmmm... And I thought a game was supposed to be fun, not work. Silly me.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#646 - 2014-04-15 23:31:51 UTC
Halia Thorak wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
I would also like to hear how you are going to fix T1 module manufacturing, which has been moribund for years.

You don't still expect new players to jump right into T2 module manufacturing or ship building, do you?


There's not a great deal they could do to fix it.

Anyone can manufacture T1 things. So it's a race to the bottom.

T2 is somewhat gated with skills, so it's not quite such a race.

T2 profits will crash with a better interface. Prices might not, depending on the slot fees, but profits will.


The problem isn't with the interface its the reduction in complexity...

T2 production should be more complex then T1 not just gated by skills. To be honest currently the skills aren't really even much of a gate into T2. Its the weeks of research and understanding the market and refine your production lines to make everything profitable. Remove the needs for POS's and remove then need for invention and now its just T1 manufacturing with more items.. that are nicely displayed for your convenience.

On the note of T2 BPO's does anyone actually think anyone will use them to produce anymore lol they're just going to be used to print isk in the form of T2 bpc's. Depending on how low they make copy times you could see the list of profitable Inventions be reduced even further then it is already. Couple this with making the system easier and i can see a lot of people dumping the idea of industry as a career, and more just another passive way to make isk.

I agree with what you are saying about complexity. It should be harder to efficiently produce T2.

But the current interface is such a dog that I believe it is a bottleneck of its own. I have five characters capable of T2 production. I can rarely endure the clicks long enough to cycle through them all. Certainly not every day. But if it weresl simpler I would easily double my T2 production.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#647 - 2014-04-15 23:32:28 UTC
First up I have only read the Blue Responses in this thread, and not all 31 pages of comments, so sorry if this has been mentioned.

Given that there are 3 more Blogs to come there is allot of speculation.
Based off the first one I Thought that they were mostly good changes, to my knowledge there is still a query over the retention of BPO for Compression and the new(converted) Compression array, I hope that the BPOs are retained and are required in the new arrays.

Now for comments on the Second one:
Cleaning of the market groups = Good Change
- Never really noticed it before but the icon for the Outpost components/improvement platforms looks a little out of place, as it has a background on the icons, most other icons have transparent backgrounds.

Stopping the Damage = Good Change
- other the chance that this could overload arrays with the sudden 100 times volume increase, no real issues in this one.
- Also just confirming that the existing R.A.M. BPOs output is also increasing by a factor of 100

Extra Materials = Good Change
- just need to confirm that the various Cargo Container BPOs will now actually take ME into account? as currently they are 100% Extra materials.
- Noticed that in the Screenshots that
-- the name of the Bill of materials is changing to Industry? this is weird change.
-- There are some weird arse icons instead of nice easy to read tabs? I think this is backwards step, the icons also take up more room than the previous tabs did

Ok the Slots change = Holding judgement based on future devblogs
But off what is already there hears some speculation
Concept is probably fine for replacing slots with increasing costs, but as to how quickly that scales will be interesting.
Costs being based off the item being produced, does this mean that the time for production is no longer a factor? or that the new cost is the new base install cost?

Structure changes/Supply chain management/Scientific Networking
- I can see that BPOs owned by corporations are now going to be stored in the cheapest location for copying most likely.
I've been in a few corps that have run the following setup, Corp BPO Library in a Station, with members having query access and only the Directors/CEO having Take access to that Hangar. members are then able to research/manufacture from those corp owned BPOs to either that station or to the corp POS/s in system. However with this station, I can't see Directors/CEO moving BPOs for every member that wants to use the BPO in the POS. So members instead of just straight using the BPOs will now have to Copy the BPO and then take the output BPC to the POS to be able to manufacture from it.

Quote:
Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements

I'm sorry but this is just a plain step backwards, and frankly makes NO sense. It was bad enough when you didn't have standings requirements when you introduced POCO control to HS

Industry UI change.... Looks allot more graphical and Larger, hopefully none of the information is lost.
I can see that there is a manufacturing job on screen, but I can't tell if there are any missing minerals or what minerals are in use.

Please remember for future changes that increasing the number of icons in place of easily readable text is not always a good thing.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#648 - 2014-04-15 23:34:21 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
I would also like to hear how you are going to fix T1 module manufacturing, which has been moribund for years.

You don't still expect new players to jump right into T2 module manufacturing or ship building, do you?

There's not a great deal they could do to fix it.

Anyone can manufacture T1 things. So it's a race to the bottom..

The bottom for T1 modules is obviously not where you think it is.

The current manufacturing costs of most T1 modules are higher than the market price of meta versions of the module, due to the large supply of metas from NPC drops. So, who would buy/use a T1 module for a ship fit, when a better meta module is always available *and* cheaper? No demand means no reason to build.

Also, meta module prices are lower-bounded by their mineral reprocessing value. So, when the changes to reprocessing kick in, the prices of most of the meta modules are also going to drop rather precipitously.

For the most part, the only reason to build most T1 modules currently is for use in building T2 modules.

Don't just look at the proposed changes from a vet POV. Try looking at the game from a noob industry player wanna-be POV, and ask what should they be looking to build, besides T1 ammo?
Elene Shuiko
Karvanen Nalle Corporation
#649 - 2014-04-15 23:35:03 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Elene Shuiko wrote:
Quote:
Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.


I hope I misunderstood something here, if you're going to make copy time lower than manufacturing time then the "requirement" for the print to be at the tower is completely pointless. All sensible builders are going to keep their BPOs at stations, not because of the risk but because they can build more that way. If you can get 10 copies within the same time period as you could manufacture 9 ships... it isn't really rocket science.

Removing the gimmick damage mechanic was nice but please don't replace it with another (running BPC's to the POS) if you want to run at full efficiency.



How much is it going to cost to make 10 copies in a station with over used lab services?

Then again, you will also do this at your own POS, print copies in your free lab (with speed boost even) and yield EVEN more copies per hour/day compared to straight manufacturing. Copy time just needs to be above manufacturing time or else it will give us a new gimmick mechanic.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#650 - 2014-04-15 23:35:18 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Or...as the next 4 dev blogs will reveal, this is just the first step in eviscerating high sec industry and null sec industry will be given even MORE advantages that make it impossible to run either a casual high sec indy corp or a large scale dedicated industrial corp.


I am not known to be a strenuous (sov) null sec supremacy "because it's Good" supporter.
But give CCP some slack please.

The potential nerf to Supercaps Online(tm) is sublime and hi sec was a TERRIBLE mechanic to begin with, seeing it slowly phased out imo is a good idea, as long as there are new mechanics to allow the individuals to still afford playing this game.


Think about this: in the vituperated WoW, you are statistically LESS safe against ganking than in EvE's hi sec.

EvE is marketed as cold, harsh universe, if CCP makes it really so, they are just delivering what they have written on the tin.



CCP, some slack???

First off, I fail to see how this is a huge nerf to Supercaps Online.
A POS with BPO's in it has still less risk of being hit than a tower with a CSAA, since a CSAA is a beacon.
And we all know that supercap mfg towers are seldom hit, though it does happen. goons don't even ALLOW their renters to make supercaps, and the goons have their industrial might buried deep in very safe enclaves.
Further, dev's have promised significant cuts to copying times. Depending on how big a buff, it could ensure making supercaps is easier.

Don't compare Eve to Wow. You know better than that.

And as for making Eve a cold harsh place, it is there already.
These changes, along with the subsequent blogs, are targeted at wrecking high sec industry.
If the CSM's goal with these changes was to reduce the amount of casual players subscribing to the game, they certainly have achieved it.
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#651 - 2014-04-15 23:35:38 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
I would also like to hear how you are going to fix T1 module manufacturing, which has been moribund for years.

You don't still expect new players to jump right into T2 module manufacturing or ship building, do you?



There's not a great deal they could do to fix it.

Anyone can manufacture T1 things. So it's a race to the bottom.

T2 is somewhat gated with skills, so it's not quite such a race.


The reason that T1 manufacturing has such low profit margins is due to two factors:

1) The low investment of player time in the production process
2) The low investment of manufacturing slot time in the process.

Want to make 1000 units of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 1? Once you have a researched BPO, It takes 5 or 6 clicks (1 minute player time, 3 minutes if you need to place buy orders on the minerals), and ~100 production line hours.

The only way to make the process profitable (and I do not want to see this happen) is to make it either as player time intensive as T2 production (~15 clicks to build 10 units of EANM II) and/or as production line hour intensive as T2.

Not to mention T2 requires less skills than T1, not more. T1 margins are so low that you must have Material Efficiency 5 and very, very good trade skills and trade standings (which require PVE combat skills to earn efficiently). T2 just requires 4 level 1 skills to 5 (Science the only one a combat pilot wouldn't already have), a few datacore and trade skills to 3 and Material Efficiency to 4.


I would disagree with all this.

The reason T1 production is so profitless is because 95% of M4 and below that gets used is rat drop. What are we left to manufacture? Ships, rigs, ammo and the few other items that rats don't drop (or not in sufficient quantities)?

I say, remove ALL rat drops below M5, and make ALL meta 1-5 items be manufactured by players. Heck, even remove the dead space and officer drops and replace them with BPCs that have to be built.



If we're going to fix manufacturing, let's really fix manufacturing, ESPECIALLY the fact that rat drops are better than the T1 we can build!
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#652 - 2014-04-15 23:36:25 UTC
ccp confirmation required.

when this change goes live will the bpos that were in the middle of production at the time be relocated to any pos mods that the production was started in or will it continue to export back to its locked down status in the station?

also is there the possibility that you guys may complete all build jobs on the server to free up the bpos so that the players can have peace of mind during the update that they are safely in the station and will have to decide after that whether or not they wish to continue to build in a pos or stick to station building?

also will there be any other purpose to high standings than what is in the game currently?
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
#653 - 2014-04-15 23:38:25 UTC
Well, huh. I... geeze. Um... right, there we have it.

♪ They'll always be bloodclaws to me ♫
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#654 - 2014-04-15 23:40:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
gifter Penken wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
I would also like to hear how you are going to fix T1 module manufacturing, which has been moribund for years.

You don't still expect new players to jump right into T2 module manufacturing or ship building, do you?



There's not a great deal they could do to fix it.

Anyone can manufacture T1 things. So it's a race to the bottom.

T2 is somewhat gated with skills, so it's not quite such a race.


The reason that T1 manufacturing has such low profit margins is due to two factors:

1) The low investment of player time in the production process
2) The low investment of manufacturing slot time in the process.

Want to make 1000 units of Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane 1? Once you have a researched BPO, It takes 5 or 6 clicks (1 minute player time, 3 minutes if you need to place buy orders on the minerals), and ~100 production line hours.

The only way to make the process profitable (and I do not want to see this happen) is to make it either as player time intensive as T2 production (~15 clicks to build 10 units of EANM II) and/or as production line hour intensive as T2.

Not to mention T2 requires less skills than T1, not more. T1 margins are so low that you must have Material Efficiency 5 and very, very good trade skills and trade standings (which require PVE combat skills to earn efficiently). T2 just requires 4 level 1 skills to 5 (Science the only one a combat pilot wouldn't already have), a few datacore and trade skills to 3 and Material Efficiency to 4.


I would disagree with all this.

The reason T1 production is so profitless is because 95% of M4 and below that gets used is rat drop. What are we left to manufacture? Ships, rigs, ammo and the few other items that rats don't drop (or not in sufficient quantities)?

I say, remove ALL rat drops below M5, and make ALL meta 1-5 items be manufactured by players. Heck, even remove the dead space and officer drops and replace them with BPCs that have to be built.



If we're going to fix manufacturing, let's really fix manufacturing, ESPECIALLY the fact that rat drops are better than the T1 we can build!


You are aware that there are modules with no rat-dropped meta versions (Drone Damage Amplifiers in particular, Bastion Module too) where the exact same applies? And ammunition. Don't get started on the newbie trap that is building T1 ammo.

Rat drops being useful for something is good for the game.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#655 - 2014-04-15 23:41:12 UTC
CCP has lost their f'n mind.
Ginger Barbarella
#656 - 2014-04-15 23:42:04 UTC
Guess it's time to sell my towers, labs, and blueprints. Nothin' left now but wasting isk in low sec.

Kudos, CCP. One more step to ending high sec. I still say you guys should just man-up and eliminate high sec, but easing people into it stretches out the subscription dollars. Smile

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#657 - 2014-04-15 23:44:14 UTC
Simple solution to solve the Abandoned POS issue.... Calendar already shows you when you run out of fuel... After X days .. say 7 days... a unfueled POS can be openly attacked... It's deemed abandoned. Much similar to finding cars on the side of the road.. after X days they are free salvage.... Pos runs out of fuel... 7 days tick by.... Pos is attackable by all. Very simple.

As for certain people who keep saying this is a attack on "Casual" eve players, all the Casuals I know are ecstatic about this change and can't wait for it to hit. Hell check over the many Eve Facebook groups, or Blogs. Except for losing the standings grind that we all did... Every industrialist in Hi-sec is going hyper happy like a puppy who found a new leg to hump over this change.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#658 - 2014-04-15 23:46:07 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
As for certain people who keep saying this is a attack on "Casual" eve players, all the Casuals I know are ecstatic about this change and can't wait for it to hit. Hell check over the many Eve Facebook groups, or Blogs. Except for losing the standings grind that we all did... Every industrialist in Hi-sec is going hyper happy like a puppy who found a new leg to hump over this change.




This, acquiring 5.0 faction standings for a highsec POS (or 6.0 to get one with more choice of location) is a very casual-unfriendly endeavour.

It's not all that long if you know how to do it efficiently, but if you do not - and try to do it via storyline missions like I did when I was new.... ugh.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Halia Thorak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#659 - 2014-04-15 23:46:30 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Halia Thorak wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
I would also like to hear how you are going to fix T1 module manufacturing, which has been moribund for years.

You don't still expect new players to jump right into T2 module manufacturing or ship building, do you?


There's not a great deal they could do to fix it.

Anyone can manufacture T1 things. So it's a race to the bottom.

T2 is somewhat gated with skills, so it's not quite such a race.

T2 profits will crash with a better interface. Prices might not, depending on the slot fees, but profits will.


The problem isn't with the interface its the reduction in complexity...

T2 production should be more complex then T1 not just gated by skills. To be honest currently the skills aren't really even much of a gate into T2. Its the weeks of research and understanding the market and refine your production lines to make everything profitable. Remove the needs for POS's and remove then need for invention and now its just T1 manufacturing with more items.. that are nicely displayed for your convenience.

On the note of T2 BPO's does anyone actually think anyone will use them to produce anymore lol they're just going to be used to print isk in the form of T2 bpc's. Depending on how low they make copy times you could see the list of profitable Inventions be reduced even further then it is already. Couple this with making the system easier and i can see a lot of people dumping the idea of industry as a career, and more just another passive way to make isk.

I agree with what you are saying about complexity. It should be harder to efficiently produce T2.

But the current interface is such a dog that I believe it is a bottleneck of its own. I have five characters capable of T2 production. I can rarely endure the clicks long enough to cycle through them all. Certainly not every day. But if it weresl simpler I would easily double my T2 production.


Oh absolutely I only do it on two toons and its still far to many clicks.

Reducing redundancy is fine, i love when they do it. I shouldn't have to click 8 times to install a single Invention job when clicking twice would be more then enough.

What i don't like is when they destroy the the complexity because some complains that its to complex for them.

Not everyone has to do everything in eve and that's what I use to love about it. More and more it seems ccp wants pvp to be the main focus and everything else to be a passive source of income for that end goal.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#660 - 2014-04-15 23:47:30 UTC
On the POS cleanup issue, I think the best solution is to make it so that attacking an offline POS is a suspect offense, not a criminal offense. (Online remains criminal).

Solves everything.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com