These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev blog: Building better Worlds

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#461 - 2014-04-15 20:10:23 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Casual players are not allowed to play Eve.
Didn't you get the memo?
They are directing anyone who has a real life and can't commit at least 2 hours a day every day to Eve to wait for Star Citizen to boot up.

I must admit, Mike Azariah has done another bang-up job defending the high sec casual player.


These changes make it easier for me to log in once a week to update jobs and orders, casuals will be fine. Tinfoil encrusted fools however, that's another story.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#462 - 2014-04-15 20:10:52 UTC
Rapscallion Jones wrote:
Chanina wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Quote:
Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.

Any chance this would also apply to T2 BPOs? Right now it takes longer to make a copy than to just manufacture from the BPO. It would be a great way for a new market to spring up around T2 BPO BPCs and make it easier for new people to get in to T2 manufacturing without having to get in to invention.


That's the current plan, yes.


So you are telling that you won't touch Invention with this expansion but greatly increasing the output of high quality T2 BPCs?

Am I the only inventor here that doesn't like that change much? Yes a new guy wouldn't need that much to get into T2 Production, but
a) the very limited group of producers for this high quality BPCs and
b) the lack of competitors through invention
will yield in high prices and again a lot of profit to people who already had years of time to pull out the profit from there investment.


This 100x over! If you want to eliminate invention just come out and say it. When shall we expect Tech 2 BPOs to be seeded on the market?

What is the point in trying to nerf Invention? Failing to really understand the logic behind this change. Surely putting more power into the hands of T2 BPO holders is a bad thing.
Sad MonkeySpanker
Chaos Army
#463 - 2014-04-15 20:11:08 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:

...
The new "scale price to usage" price mechanism for slots is likely going ito make copy slots prohibitively expensive. The alt corp with large POS is going to be the cheaper alternative.


They did mention Risk-Reward....
Thead Enco
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#464 - 2014-04-15 20:11:57 UTC
D'Kelle wrote:
From your dev blog

In turn, this allows us to change several points:
• Allow Starbases to be anchored anywhere in high-security space and without standing requirements (minus some protected solar systems, like Jita or new player starting systems of course).




• Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures.



Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.
• Improve Mobile Laboratories and Assembly Arrays to compensate for such risk – we’ll give you final numbers as soon as we have them.
• Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.


Please take note of the single highlighted line, don't you think before you jump in with both feet that you should improve the almost non-existent, pitifully inadequate self defence AI of POS's before you force more valuable stuff into them and therefore " at Risk "
Players cannot all be online 24-7-365 so greater self defence needs to be in there until Corp members can at least get on line in their time zone. To deal fairly with a given situation, at least that way you have a chance to have a reasonable balance in game, you know what I mean, 'the balance' you seem to advertise and hold in front of everyone on a big banner every time you change stuff.



This game is not tailored for the "Randoms" that logon once every 6 months nor should it. Since they've been the death of every MMO since 1998. Now you do have a couple tools at your disposal. One is called corp notiications, the other is Hiring a merc corp or make friends in other timezone to organze a defense.
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#465 - 2014-04-15 20:12:19 UTC  |  Edited by: gifter Penken
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
theman428 wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?



no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots



More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players)

That is not any improvement at all




I suspect you will see a near equilibrium established where the high sec station slot prices increase to the point that the hassle of running a high sec alt corp with a POS to do research become profitable enough for people to do it.


What you are NOT going to see is the intended "people putting expensive BPOs into low/null sec POS then losing them to attack".



And what happens when some griefer corp, who is always looking for industrial corps to attack. spends a couple billion on small POS's, anchors them, then deadzones a few systems, and says "come at us". When there are very few moons available to put up POS's at in high sec, that is going to create a massive demand for station mfg, and then this huge cost is incurred by the majority of the player base, while those that work with the griefing corps, well, they get a POS available , and a massive cost advantage over those forced to use the station mfg.

Brilliant system.
Null sec game mechanics come en masse to high sec.
I was right, the PoCo's were just the first of many steps to ruin high sec industry.

In earlier response, CCP already mentioned realizing they need to do something about offline POSes holding moons. Let's see if they come up with a good solution to that.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#466 - 2014-04-15 20:12:21 UTC
With Infinite slots coming up on Stations, does this mean the 30 day cap will be removed? Since Industrialists are no longer hogging the slots for others, might as well remove the hard cap since there is no risk just costs in npc stations, or risk in outposts based on how long you decided to let the BP cook for.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#467 - 2014-04-15 20:12:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Considering how quick and easy it will be to move BPC's via shuttle several jumps in any direction from a market hub this would be completely impractical. Do you have any concept of what it would cost, or more importantly the time that would be involved in set up and maintenance, trying to blanket every moon in every system within a 5 or 10 jump radius of Jita? We are talking a mere 5 or 10 minutes of travel time.

Not really a cause for concern.


Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#468 - 2014-04-15 20:15:59 UTC
Please excuse the short replies, the forums ate the longer versions.

Tippia wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Something seems clearly wrong in your statements about supply and demand here. If as you say there is higher output for the T2 BPOs then either inventors will produce less or demand will increase. Demand increases when prices drop. Perhaps T2 inventors will merely have to accept a slightly smaller margin.

What's wrong is that you read too much into it — specifically, I'm not talking about demand at all. I'm saying that if BPO holders produce slightly more and inventors produce the same as ever, the difference in supply will be so small as to not have any appreciable effect.


It seems like you might be searching for the argument that the increase or decrease in production will not be measurable. Still you keep claiming that an increase in production from T2 BPO owners will not effect inventors with either volume or price. If it is not measurable then fine no worries, but supply and demand stands.

Tippia wrote:
Kadl wrote:
I can agree that we need to see the other changes. At the same time I think it is fine to note that we don't want to see an general increase in production from the T2 BPOs (without an increase in risk).
As luck would have it, there is an increase in risk that goes along with it if they want to really make full use of that increased output potential.


If the variables of the situation require T2 BPOs to be risked in POSes for the increased value then I will happily call this situation well handled. If the copy system or other production means in stations end up increasing BPO value then the situation will have been made worse. We do not know the situation so we must wait. In the meantime it is fair to speculate by identifying this as a potential problem.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#469 - 2014-04-15 20:16:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:

What is the point in trying to nerf Invention? Failing to really understand the logic behind this change. Surely putting more power into the hands of T2 BPO holders is a bad thing.

I think you are completely overlooking how incredibly fast the process of invention will be. Most of your time is tied up waiting for slots to open up or for copies to be made. This will no longer be a factor... and you will benefit from this far more than the T2 BPO holder.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2014-04-15 20:16:22 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

And what happens when some griefer corp, who is always looking for industrial corps to attack. spends a couple billion on small POS's, anchors them, then deadzones a few systems, and says "come at us". When there are very few moons available to put up POS's at in high sec, that is going to create a massive demand for station mfg, and then this huge cost is incurred by the majority of the player base, while those that work with the griefing corps, well, they get a POS available , and a massive cost advantage over those forced to use the station mfg.

Brilliant system.
Null sec game mechanics come en masse to high sec.
I was right, the PoCo's were just the first of many steps to ruin high sec industry.


You caught on to us, our plan to take over all of highsec involves anchoring as many POS as we can, stressing GSOL to the breaking point.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#471 - 2014-04-15 20:17:32 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Considering how quick and easy it will be to move BPC's via shuttle several jumps in any direction from a market hub this would be completely impractical. Do you have any concept of what it would cost, or more importantly the time that would be involved in set up and maintenance, trying to blanket every moon in every system within a 5 or 10 jump radius of Jita? We are talking a mere 5 or 10 minutes of travel time.

Not really a cause for concern.


Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.


Death to the Casuals... Especially the ones that complain with every single change to the game...
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#472 - 2014-04-15 20:17:41 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Considering how quick and easy it will be to move BPC's via shuttle several jumps in any direction from a market hub this would be completely impractical. Do you have any concept of what it would cost, or more importantly the time that would be involved in set up and maintenance, trying to blanket every moon in every system within a 5 or 10 jump radius of Jita? We are talking a mere 5 or 10 minutes of travel time.

Not really a cause for concern.


Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.



how is it a ttack on the casual high sec player?

how is it going to take the profit form you?

what wrong with "griefer corps" it how the game is meant to player, war and fighting over indys
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#473 - 2014-04-15 20:17:47 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.


POCOs don't require fuel.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#474 - 2014-04-15 20:17:50 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.


Let's see if CCP comes up with a way of dealing with offline high sec POS.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#475 - 2014-04-15 20:18:41 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?
If they don't fuel them up, they will lose them very very quickly. As in [SLOPS] — a 4-ppl indy corp — can get rid of half a dozen of them without any problem whatsoever.

Quote:
Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.
…and get absolutely nothing out of it. So why would they do it?

Quote:
This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.
This has pretty much zero impact on casual high-sec players.
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#476 - 2014-04-15 20:20:56 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:

Let's see if CCP comes up with a way of dealing with offline high sec POS.


just war dec them, dosn't take long to do, i have done it many times... solo...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#477 - 2014-04-15 20:22:44 UTC
Kadl wrote:
It seems like you might be searching for the argument that the increase or decrease in production will not be measurable. Still you keep claiming that an increase in production from T2 BPO owners will not effect inventors with either volume or price.
No. I haven't claimed either of those. You're confusing production with demand, somehow.

If BPO holders produce more, this does not in any way affect how much inventors can produce. They simply can't. There is no connection or correlation between the two. Moreover, BPO holders produce so little that a marginal increase in their output from the BPOs is not going to affect the price in any significant way. You'd see the same variance from just a handful of inventors deciding to pick a different product this particular month.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#478 - 2014-04-15 20:23:14 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Right, just like how goons and RvB didn't blanket how many systems with their PoCo's in a matter of days?
And as for maintenance on these POS's, who said anything about fueling them up?

Some of these griefer corps spend billions on war decs. Now they just spend it on deadzoning systems and wait for the war decs to come to them.

And who is also talking about just BPC's being moved?
If the typical player is forced to move his manufacturing 10 jumps out from a trade hub, he is incurring a huge opportunity cost in time, PLUS a massive risk moving stuff that extra distance.

This is just another attack on the casual high sec player.

I am so glad I shut down my indy accounts a couple years ago.
That being said, I still do capital BPC copying in low sec.
But the profitability of that is about to be ruined as well.

It is called a courier contract. I use them exclusively to have things moved in highsec, with appropriate collateral. I pay darn good, too -- >500k / jump. Outsourcing the risk is absolutely worth the minor decrease in profit to me, not to mention the fact that I don't, y'know, have to move it myself.

I've had more than one courier get suicide ganked, too.

It is a little strange that you just happen to be doing whatever economic activity that is being affected in every single dev blog. Either you are a prolific eve player, with his fingers in nearly every pie, or you're lying.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#479 - 2014-04-15 20:23:36 UTC
I'm mostly annoyed that I'm going to have to either move or spread out. I found a nice out of the way system with a manufacturing station and available moons where freight cost to a hub was reasonable. Took all the POCOs for myself, consolidated all my operations. manufacturing, research, and PI into one spot and one corp office. But of course there are no lab slots within several jumps, because I didn't need them.

Now I'll have to put my BPOs either in my POS or in a different system. Then I'll have to plan ahead and make BPCs and move them to wherever they need to be for manufacturing. Whichever I choose, that means more spreadsheets and more thinking ahead about what I intend to make because I can't just simply produce/research/copyinvent from BPOs sitting in my consolidated corp office on-demand anymore. I don't fully utilize my POS as it is because I'm lazy and inefficient already; I don't plan out my manufacturing far enough in advance to be intelligently making BPC's and moving them around. The convenience of having everything in one spot where I could just "industry" on a reactive, hobby scale was more than worth the reduced profits for me. I still came out ahead, but I was never min/maxing this stuff.

After the changes... meh. Sure, I can find a new system with the 0.8+ landrush, but it won't have my factory PI planets/POCO's there. I could ferry BPCs from some other system or ferry BPOs to/from my POS in my current location, but that means I'll have to spend time, not to ferry things around but to THINK about what needs to be ferried around. I could manufacture at the POS, but I doubt a small will have the fitting for it and anyway, there goes the convenience of a gigantic station corp hangar stockpile. I'll probably have to plan head and make BPC's, which sounds annoying. The convenience of consolidation was worth a lot. Honestly I'll probably just liquidate... the thought of re-locating and sorting out BPC planning beyond invention and whatnot is just not very appealing.

Yeah, I'm just whining.
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#480 - 2014-04-15 20:23:46 UTC
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:

Death to the Casuals... Especially the ones that complain with every single change to the game...



I know this is somewhat hyperbole, but death to casual players would be death to EVE. For a presentation a few years back, I think I recall the number being that in any given month, only 20% of accounts appear on a kill mail.