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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#401 - 2014-04-08 12:38:48 UTC
Azn Assassin wrote:
Quote:
========================================================================================

GILA

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
500% bonus to medium drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity)


Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 670 PWG(+40), 400 CPU(+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3200(+12) / 2200(-125) / 2490
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1400(+25) / 530000 (-1250) / 2.85
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / .66 / 9600000 / 8.78s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(-105) / 100(-300)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 58km (+3km) / 285 / 7
Sensor strength: 22
Signature radius: 145(-5)

========================================================================================


This is by far one of the biggest jokes I've ever seen in this game. Seriously going to make this ship a pure frigate killer? Granted the Gila is nothing right now compared to the VNI (Vexor Navy Issue) buts till find something better for it use wise instead of throwing this piece of garbage at us. Drop it down to 250% and give them a full fight of drones and enlarge that drone bay, right now its going to be so easy to counter this ships DPS its going to be a complete joke.

You go with this, people will see a Gila land on grid, ignore it's missiles and completely annihilate its drones and its game over for it every time and its going to be far easier to take out this ships drones then it will be the VNI's drones. Least Heavies have more EHP the VNI can run double webs if need be, but this thing doesn't have that option being a shield tank.

Bare in mind it takes some missile ships one volley of light missiles to take out a drone, so this thing can be quickly countered by most of its targets. Give this thing more drones and increase the amount of drones it can launch at once. Having two super hitting drones doesn't do it much good.



Just curious if you realise that the Gila's drones will have the EHP of an assault frigate each and a tiny signature and fast moving.

Engaging a Gila's drones means you're an idiot. You're only chance vs Gila is to kite like it's going out of fashion but with the medium drone buffs coming that will be virtually impossible.

If a Gila webs and scrams you it's game over. Don't underestimate that thing
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#402 - 2014-04-08 12:39:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.


All of the angel ships are fun because of their speed and agility and ability to properly use projectile weapons. I'm all for anything that sets them apart from minmatar and makes them balanced with the rest of the pirate ships so long as the 'spirit' and fun of the faction is maintained.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
#403 - 2014-04-08 12:40:42 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


GILA

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
500% bonus to medium drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity)


Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 670 PWG(+40), 400 CPU(+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3200(+12) / 2200(-125) / 2490
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1400(+25) / 530000 (-1250) / 2.85
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / .66 / 9600000 / 8.78s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(-105) / 100(-300)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 58km (+3km) / 285 / 7
Sensor strength: 22
Signature radius: 145(-5)




Someone is trying very hard to make the new Rapid light launcher a succes. Big smile


it only says missiles. that should include HAMS and Heavies, or did i get that wrong?
forcing the gila into rapid lights would be stupid.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#404 - 2014-04-08 12:43:44 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

You are pretty dense aren't you. Someone even helpfully laid out the maths for you which I quoted in the previous post. I think you should stay away from balance discussion as you are clearly a liability, and your incessant babbling on these forums is beginning to hurt my eyes,

Aside from the oddly hostile response, I am genuinely confused how sansha ships are NOT getting a damage buff, when it is as clear as day that an extra 25% damage buff got totaled up with its role bonus. I want to know how the heck that works because apparently I'm forgetting how 125% and 150% applied bonuses are the same.

Seriously though..."I think you should stay away from balance discussion as you are clearly a liability, and your incessant babbling on these forums is beginning to hurt my eyes."
For one, I have Aspergers, and fixating on ship mechanics in this game is a very important part of why I love playing this game, so responding in such an offensive manner is both extremely offensive and bewildering to me since I did not make any personal attacks on you.
Secondly, even though you laid out some nice math for me, I still legitimately have no idea how, as I just stated, a 125% effectively applied bonus and a 150% bonus are the same. Because that is exactly what you are saying and trying to pull out of your hat.

They are not saying RoF or how it applies differently in some abstract way. it is simple, straight directed damage multiplied by a percentage. I legitimately have no clue how you could possibly construe that as anything other than it is, unless you see a need to prove you are right regardless of the situation. Which you're kind of not, because what I outlined was simply a missing numerical value that wasn't outlined explicitly by the dev.

Well the reason I was being harsh was because you were ignoring what everyone was telling you. But anyway, since you asked nicely, I will try to lay out the maths in a different way and hopefully it will make sense.

Old Version

100% bonus - which equals 2x multiplier to damage
25% bonus - which equals a 1.25x multiplier to damage

As bonuses are multiplied the resultant bonus is 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 (150%)

Thank you very much for explaining that in a way that makes sense to me spacially. I have been looking at this and running fits quite intently since I woke up this afternoon, since I've basically been waiting for this to happen for 4 years. I have been somewhat cranky since it's past 5 in the morning here and I'm still blitzing the forums over this, so I'm missing a few things here and there while coming up with plans and ideas for what might help since Rise is apparently missing a few things about how ships work.
That being said, I wondered what you might think about this idea for solving the web range/neut-nos range problem blood raiders are facing with the current rebalance iteration:
1, 2, 3 guns on cruor, ashimmu, and bhaal respectively with a 300-400% damage buff. Keep high slots so you have 3,4, and 5 free highs for nos after dropping neut/nos amount bonus in favor of nos/neut range. This way you keep the dps, and slightly less direct neut/nos power, but with range for both nos/neut and web range so the two actually work together. 80% range for frig, 40 for cruiser, and 20 for battleship per level. There's your balanced blood raider line.
Julius Foederatus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#405 - 2014-04-08 12:47:30 UTC
Please do not nerf the Vigi's PG. There really is no reason to nerf it. It's not like people were complaining about its massive tank or fitting ability. We need those neutrons to be able to apply dps against neuting ships while using the web to keep them at bay. If I have to switch down to Ions, it'll be like shooting spit balls at them. Good luck ever avoiding being neuted again.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#406 - 2014-04-08 12:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

You are pretty dense aren't you. Someone even helpfully laid out the maths for you which I quoted in the previous post. I think you should stay away from balance discussion as you are clearly a liability, and your incessant babbling on these forums is beginning to hurt my eyes,

Aside from the oddly hostile response, I am genuinely confused how sansha ships are NOT getting a damage buff, when it is as clear as day that an extra 25% damage buff got totaled up with its role bonus. I want to know how the heck that works because apparently I'm forgetting how 125% and 150% applied bonuses are the same.

Seriously though..."I think you should stay away from balance discussion as you are clearly a liability, and your incessant babbling on these forums is beginning to hurt my eyes."
For one, I have Aspergers, and fixating on ship mechanics in this game is a very important part of why I love playing this game, so responding in such an offensive manner is both extremely offensive and bewildering to me since I did not make any personal attacks on you.
Secondly, even though you laid out some nice math for me, I still legitimately have no idea how, as I just stated, a 125% effectively applied bonus and a 150% bonus are the same. Because that is exactly what you are saying and trying to pull out of your hat.

They are not saying RoF or how it applies differently in some abstract way. it is simple, straight directed damage multiplied by a percentage. I legitimately have no clue how you could possibly construe that as anything other than it is, unless you see a need to prove you are right regardless of the situation. Which you're kind of not, because what I outlined was simply a missing numerical value that wasn't outlined explicitly by the dev.

Well the reason I was being harsh was because you were ignoring what everyone was telling you. But anyway, since you asked nicely, I will try to lay out the maths in a different way and hopefully it will make sense.

Old Version

100% bonus - which equals 2x multiplier to damage
25% bonus - which equals a 1.25x multiplier to damage

As bonuses are multiplied the resultant bonus is 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 (150%)

Thank you very much for explaining that in a way that makes sense to me spacially. I have been looking at this and running fits quite intently since I woke up this afternoon, since I've basically been waiting for this to happen for 4 years. I have been somewhat cranky since it's past 5 in the morning here and I'm still blitzing the forums over this, so I'm missing a few things here and there while coming up with plans and ideas for what might help since Rise is apparently missing a few things about how ships work.
That being said, I wondered what you might think about this idea for solving the web range/neut-nos range problem blood raiders are facing with the current rebalance iteration:
1, 2, 3 guns on cruor, ashimmu, and bhaal respectively with a 300-400% damage buff. Keep high slots so you have 3,4, and 5 free highs for nos after dropping neut/nos amount bonus in favor of nos/neut range. This way you keep the dps, and slightly less direct neut/nos power, but with range for both nos/neut and web range so the two actually work together. 80% range for frig, 40 for cruiser, and 20 for battleship per level. There's your balanced blood raider line.

I don't think it is a good idea. Right now I am thinking of forgetting the guns completely and simply fitting a full rack of nuets or nos, will have to see how that works out in practice though, although seems viable even to run that solo now with the expanded drone bay. So the bonus to nuet/nos amount is essential for these type of fits. Also it would kill the Bhaalgorn in its role of the best nueting ship.

I'm really looking forward to the Ashimmu though, but not so sure about the Cruor as again I dislike broken concepts, and as everyone clearly points out, the web range and small nuets do not synergise. But this seems to be Rise's style as with the Sansha changes also, so might as well get used to it.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#407 - 2014-04-08 12:50:43 UTC
Julius Foederatus wrote:
Please do not nerf the Vigi's PG. There really is no reason to nerf it. It's not like people were complaining about its massive tank or fitting ability. We need those neutrons to be able to apply dps against neuting ships while using the web to keep them at bay. If I have to switch down to Ions, it'll be like shooting spit balls at them. Good luck ever avoiding being neuted again.


ships are supposed to actually have fitting constraints. it's not supposed to be like T3s and maelstroms.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#408 - 2014-04-08 12:53:17 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

You are pretty dense aren't you. Someone even helpfully laid out the maths for you which I quoted in the previous post. I think you should stay away from balance discussion as you are clearly a liability, and your incessant babbling on these forums is beginning to hurt my eyes,

Aside from the oddly hostile response, I am genuinely confused how sansha ships are NOT getting a damage buff, when it is as clear as day that an extra 25% damage buff got totaled up with its role bonus. I want to know how the heck that works because apparently I'm forgetting how 125% and 150% applied bonuses are the same.

Seriously though..."I think you should stay away from balance discussion as you are clearly a liability, and your incessant babbling on these forums is beginning to hurt my eyes."
For one, I have Aspergers, and fixating on ship mechanics in this game is a very important part of why I love playing this game, so responding in such an offensive manner is both extremely offensive and bewildering to me since I did not make any personal attacks on you.
Secondly, even though you laid out some nice math for me, I still legitimately have no idea how, as I just stated, a 125% effectively applied bonus and a 150% bonus are the same. Because that is exactly what you are saying and trying to pull out of your hat.

They are not saying RoF or how it applies differently in some abstract way. it is simple, straight directed damage multiplied by a percentage. I legitimately have no clue how you could possibly construe that as anything other than it is, unless you see a need to prove you are right regardless of the situation. Which you're kind of not, because what I outlined was simply a missing numerical value that wasn't outlined explicitly by the dev.

Well the reason I was being harsh was because you were ignoring what everyone was telling you. But anyway, since you asked nicely, I will try to lay out the maths in a different way and hopefully it will make sense.

Old Version

100% bonus - which equals 2x multiplier to damage
25% bonus - which equals a 1.25x multiplier to damage

As bonuses are multiplied the resultant bonus is 2 x 1.25 = 2.5 (150%)

Thank you very much for explaining that in a way that makes sense to me spacially. I have been looking at this and running fits quite intently since I woke up this afternoon, since I've basically been waiting for this to happen for 4 years. I have been somewhat cranky since it's past 5 in the morning here and I'm still blitzing the forums over this, so I'm missing a few things here and there while coming up with plans and ideas for what might help since Rise is apparently missing a few things about how ships work.
That being said, I wondered what you might think about this idea for solving the web range/neut-nos range problem blood raiders are facing with the current rebalance iteration:
1, 2, 3 guns on cruor, ashimmu, and bhaal respectively with a 300-400% damage buff. Keep high slots so you have 3,4, and 5 free highs for nos after dropping neut/nos amount bonus in favor of nos/neut range. This way you keep the dps, and slightly less direct neut/nos power, but with range for both nos/neut and web range so the two actually work together. 80% range for frig, 40 for cruiser, and 20 for battleship per level. There's your balanced blood raider line.

I don't think it is a good idea. Right now I am thinking of forgetting the guns completely and simply fitting a full rack of nuets or nos, will have to see how that works out in practice though, although seems viable even to run that solo now with the expanded drone bay. So the bonus to nuet/nos amount is essential for these type of fits. Also it would kill the Bhaalgorn in its role of the best nueting ship.

I'm really looking forward to the Ashimmu though, but not so sure about the Cruor as again I dislike broken concepts, and as everyone clearly points out, the web range and small nuets do not synergise. But this seems to be Rise's style as with the Sansha changes also, so might as well get used to it.


I can see the merit with going with another drone boat, but generally blood raiders have lasers as part of the lore, so that might be kind of hard to diverge from. Maybe they could just say screw it and throw range and effectiveness for neut/nos together?
Ma Zhiqiang
Droika Logistics
#409 - 2014-04-08 12:53:50 UTC
Imho the Sansha ships shouldn't have speed bonuses due to their Caldari influence. Rather shield resistance/level.

Ohterwise it looks interesting :D
Ayuren Aakiwa
Coven.
#410 - 2014-04-08 12:55:18 UTC
the poor cynabal SadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadSadUghUghUghUghUghUghUgh
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#411 - 2014-04-08 12:58:02 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I can see the merit with going with another drone boat, but generally blood raiders have lasers as part of the lore, so that might be kind of hard to diverge from. Maybe they could just say screw it and throw range and effectiveness for neut/nos together?

The drones have already been added. That was not my idea, that is in the current proposals, go back and have a look at both the cruor and ashimmu drone bays in the proposals. The fact is, the way people use blood raider ships right now is to completely remove the guns and fit a full rack of nuets. That is why the bonus to nuet/nos amount is essential, and also why it is a good buff to this type of fitting to give the ships larger drone bays.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#412 - 2014-04-08 12:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
Just wanted to add, Gila - 2 Drones? WTF is this s$@t? Stop with the bandwidth reductions. All the target has to do is pop 2 drones then wait the forever for the next 2 to get there. There there is the whole theoretical vs actual dps. I would far rather have the chance of 5 drones hitting than 2. And you know, its so easy to manage drones during combat with the crap interface we have. Adjust damage bonus and bandwidth to reflect a full flight of 5 medium drones.

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#413 - 2014-04-08 12:59:25 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


GILA

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
500% bonus to medium drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity)


Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 670 PWG(+40), 400 CPU(+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3200(+12) / 2200(-125) / 2490
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1400(+25) / 530000 (-1250) / 2.85
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / .66 / 9600000 / 8.78s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(-105) / 100(-300)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 58km (+3km) / 285 / 7
Sensor strength: 22
Signature radius: 145(-5)




Someone is trying very hard to make the new Rapid light launcher a succes. Big smile


it only says missiles. that should include HAMS and Heavies, or did i get that wrong?
forcing the gila into rapid lights would be stupid.



No you din't get that wrong, though it will be quite useful as a RLML platform, the damage bonusses are so that the RLML will have optimal use or it, and the Blown up drones, won't leave you as a sitting duck when reloading for 35 seconds.
Vadeim Rizen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#414 - 2014-04-08 13:01:38 UTC
Why does the Cynabal deserve yet another nerf? This is getting ridiculous. The Cynabal is in balance as it stands today. That is the one faction cruiser that you could have left as is. And the vigilant, finally gets the range bonus but along with it gets a power grid nerf?? Frig Online is getting terribly boring. It's changes like this that are actually making eve LESS balanced. Any ship that had the ability to fight outnumbered solo gets the big nerf bat and it's getting really tiring. (See: tengu, talos, cane, cynabal, dramiel, machariel, etc etc). In the interest of being constructive, instead of nerfing ships that are in balance to a point where nobody will fly them, bring other ships INTO balance. Find me one person who says the Cynabal as it is today needs a nerf? These are expensive ships that SHOULD be stronger than their T1 counterparts.
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Meta Reloaded
#415 - 2014-04-08 13:02:41 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Why don't angel ships get a cool role bonus??? ...ffs

Literally, just a minmatar ship with a different skin

Super drones, super web, Super NOS AND web, Super AB and.... just a more expensive Vagabond.
Or, a Firetail that goes faster and is much more expensive if you fly the Dramial.

Angel ships need a cool role bonus and a new niche.

Suppose we give them a new role bonus, such as having a warp speed a class or two above their own? I.E. The Dramiel warps at 5.5 AU/Sec, the Cynabals Warps 3.3 AU/Sec, and the Macharial Warps at 3 AU/Sec.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
macout
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#416 - 2014-04-08 13:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: macout
CCP Rise wrote:
Morning fellows

I've been reading as fast as I can and I'm almost up to most current post but I'm about to be stuck in meetings for a few hours so I wanted to respond to what I'm seeing so far.

  • Everyone seems unhappy with the Cynabal - fair enough. The balance oriented folks here are going to have a sit down this afternoon to discuss options to add some more unique flavor to the line. Failing any large changes, I'll at least look at the powegrid and make sure Artillery is viable.

    • make sure dual prop fit is viable. otherwise its not a cynabal, you can delete ship as well as nerf it.
    but overall nerfing the last cruiser-class ship in which you can try to "solo" without links or falcon in second window its so :facepalm:
    Capqu
    Half Empty
    xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
    #417 - 2014-04-08 13:04:19 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:

    Hopefully back with more in a few hours. Thanks for the response (except you Capqu)


    i'm sorry rise :( you know you're my favourite dev right, i'd follow you to the ends of the earth (in a griffon)

    looking forward to the updated cynabun

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
    Julius Foederatus
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #418 - 2014-04-08 13:04:58 UTC
    TrouserDeagle wrote:
    Julius Foederatus wrote:
    Please do not nerf the Vigi's PG. There really is no reason to nerf it. It's not like people were complaining about its massive tank or fitting ability. We need those neutrons to be able to apply dps against neuting ships while using the web to keep them at bay. If I have to switch down to Ions, it'll be like shooting spit balls at them. Good luck ever avoiding being neuted again.


    ships are supposed to actually have fitting constraints. it's not supposed to be like T3s and maelstroms.


    So you think it should get nerfed, because it needs fitting restraints? Any reason for those fitting restraints, or is it just cause you happened to think that when you woke up this morning?
    Koizumi Atsuchi
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #419 - 2014-04-08 13:05:15 UTC
    Why are you so obsessed to find defined niches for faction ships? F.e. Gila was all round PvP, PvE ship, do what you like with it. Now its becomes more boring, more predictable, less useful. Is it an aim from CCP for players to train for HACS instead of flying pirate cruisers? Sure Phantasm was broken, Ashimmu had its own issues. Cynabal is all round arty/AC ship, flexible, fun to fly, enjoyable solo ship. Vigilant has its web bonuses, cool melt your face close range kinda style. Leave it at that, why break Cynabal and Gila?
    Flexibility is the best thing EVE can offer, you dont know what to expect from different ships- makes the game more interesting, would be silly to rule that out.
    Catherine Laartii
    Doomheim
    #420 - 2014-04-08 13:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
    Medalyn Isis wrote:
    Catherine Laartii wrote:
    I can see the merit with going with another drone boat, but generally blood raiders have lasers as part of the lore, so that might be kind of hard to diverge from. Maybe they could just say screw it and throw range and effectiveness for neut/nos together?

    The drones have already been added. That was not my idea, that is in the current proposals, go back and have a look at both the cruor and ashimmu drone bays in the proposals. The fact is, the way people use blood raider ships right now is to completely remove the guns and fit a full rack of nuets. That is why the bonus to nuet/nos amount is essential, and also why it is a good buff to this type of fitting to give the ships larger drone bays.

    They don't get any drone bonuses, said bonuses which translate to me as being a "drone ship" with that as their primary weapon system. That being said, I would like your idea quite a bit actually if it DID include a drone damage and HP bonus as the amarr bonus, web range as the minmatar bonus, and a neut range bonus as the role bonus with 4, 6, and 8 respectively as the highslots for each of them, all of which could have neuts.
    Still; I would be more than happy to go with my initial proposal as it helps with dps quite a bit, even if it does sacrifice some neut power for applied neut range, which I think would be more viable in a pvp setting than straight cap alpha, since range dictation is key. The latter is also why your proposal would work well if it was implemented.