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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#701 - 2014-04-03 19:48:57 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Is it 2011 or something?


Using a MJD dominix for hisec level 4's is not the only situation in which one would use sentries for pve.


I never claimed it is, im just trying to find out when the proper situation arises that an extra ~50dps over navy ones for killing frigates you can alpha anyway is more important than extra ~200dps.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#702 - 2014-04-03 19:53:12 UTC
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, perhaps in a later post by a dev, but I'm not seeing how the changes cause Scout Drone Op to obsolete Combat Drone Op. Rereading now.

It's not being obsoleted, as such. It's being flat out removed, and the replacement process is such that you get the same replacement skills if you have SDO V as if you had CDO V.

The highest of the two skills determines what level your newfangled Light Drone and Medium Drone skills will be at.

And now I'm even more lost.

From what I understood

SDO is being renamed to Drone Avionics with no functionality change
CDO is being split into 2 skills, 1 for lights, 1 for mediums. Much like the BC/Destroyer skill changes it's clearly beneficial to train this up prior to the changes should you anticipate ever using these types of drones.

What I don't see is how the 2 skills intersect. I apologize if I missed a later clarification, but I don't see how CDO became less valuable in itself or how SDO in any way provides the same benefit after the changes as CDO does now. If you can break it down I'd appreciate it.


Fozzie clarified that you will be getting the two new skills at the level of whichever is higher out of SDO or CDO, since SDO currently unlocks the T1 and T2 light/medium drones, and therefore a situation could have occurred where someone was able to use T2 (or even T1) drones BEFORE the patch, but not after, since the requirement was being moved to an unrelated skill.

Hence, if you have CDO to, say, III, and SDO to V, then you don't need to train CDO any more in order to get both new skills at V.

I'm not sure what is happening to Drone Link Augmentors, which are currently unlocked by CDO, my guess would be they're getting moved to Drone Avionics.

I should also point out there most certainly IS a functionality change with Drone Avionics because SDO unlocks drones and Drone Avionics will not, the original blog post is really, really bad in some ways.
Ah I see it now, it was a post i missed, though that said, if you had SDO V you had access to the T2 drones, CDO wasn't needed, so I'm not sure why replicating SDO to CDO is necessary unless the CDO derivatives are being included in T2 progression, which I'm guessing is another change not stated in the blog itself.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#703 - 2014-04-03 19:54:59 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Is it 2011 or something?


Using a MJD dominix for hisec level 4's is not the only situation in which one would use sentries for pve.


I never claimed it is, im just trying to find out when the proper situation arises that an extra ~50dps over navy ones for killing frigates you can alpha anyway is more important than extra ~200dps.
When that extra 200DPS isn't applying well because you either failed to alpha them in time or they spawned on top of you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#704 - 2014-04-03 20:03:58 UTC
Icylce wrote:
Yes I got exactly what I trained for, but
…but nothing. You lost no time. If others gained more than you, you did not lose anything. If I slot in +5s and you only use +3s, you are not losing any time. You are getting exactly what you chose; what you chose is still with you; nothing is lost.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
And now I'm even more lost.

From what I understood

SDO is being renamed to Drone Avionics with no functionality change
CDO is being split into 2 skills, 1 for lights, 1 for mediums. Much like the BC/Destroyer skill changes it's clearly beneficial to train this up prior to the changes should you anticipate ever using these types of drones.

What I don't see is how the 2 skills intersect. I apologize if I missed a later clarification, but I don't see how CDO became less valuable in itself or how SDO in any way provides the same benefit after the changes as CDO does now. If you can break it down I'd appreciate it.

They intersect in terms of what bonuses they provide and what they actually unlock. The drone skills are pretty inconsistent in this regard compared to other skills.

CDO gives bonuses to light and medium drones, but don't unlock them. SDO doesn't give any bonuses that are specific to light and medium drones, but it does unlock them. This set-up is as if training Small Hybrids didn't give you the ability to use small hybrids — you'd only get more damage from them and would have to train sharpshooting to be able to fit the actual guns.

What this change does is bring everything back where it should be. Bonusing skills are also unlocking skills. CDO gives bonuses, so it should also unlock… except that it is being split into two different skills (again, just like how small and medium hybrids are different skills). Conversely, the range-giving skill will unlock the range-giving modules, rather than have the damage bonus skills unlock the range modules (because wtf?!).

The problem is that in the transition, people with SDO trained might lose their drone abilities if it was just transformed into Done Avionics since that skill is what currently unlocks the more advance drone types. So people who have trained SDO get to keep their abilities — iow, they get the comparable levels of Light and Medium Drones. At the same time, people who have trained CDO get to keep their light/medium drone damage bonuses — iow, they too get comparable levels of LIght and Medium Drones. If you have one of these two skills (CDO or SDO) trained higher than the other, you still get to keep your bonuses or abilities: the highest one determines which level you get Light and Medium Drones at. This might mean you end up with more ability or higher bonuses than you had previously.

So the steps are essentially:
• SDO and CDO get their unlocking abilities switched around (SDO unlocks range mods, CDO unlocks drones).
• CDO is split into LDO and MDO, and (for the moment) retains the level trained.
• If your (momentary) LDO and MDO levels are lower than what you have in SDO — which might mean you can no longer use T2 drones — the LDO/MDO levels are increased to your current SDO level to ensure you don't lose your current ability.
• SDO is then renamed as Drone Avionics and retains the level trained (since it's the same skill).

…and order is restored instated in the drone realm.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#705 - 2014-04-03 20:05:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Is it 2011 or something?


Using a MJD dominix for hisec level 4's is not the only situation in which one would use sentries for pve.


I never claimed it is, im just trying to find out when the proper situation arises that an extra ~50dps over navy ones for killing frigates you can alpha anyway is more important than extra ~200dps.
When that extra 200DPS isn't applying well because you either failed to alpha them in time or they spawned on top of you.


Are we talking now some form of pve i have not experienced yet where just frigates spawn everywhere, with no larger ships?

Because in the end what you are suggesting is exchanging one extra volley per frigate for ~50% slower killing overall.

Its should have a strong reason.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#706 - 2014-04-03 20:06:49 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Erasmus Phoenix wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, perhaps in a later post by a dev, but I'm not seeing how the changes cause Scout Drone Op to obsolete Combat Drone Op. Rereading now.

It's not being obsoleted, as such. It's being flat out removed, and the replacement process is such that you get the same replacement skills if you have SDO V as if you had CDO V.

The highest of the two skills determines what level your newfangled Light Drone and Medium Drone skills will be at.

And now I'm even more lost.

From what I understood

SDO is being renamed to Drone Avionics with no functionality change
CDO is being split into 2 skills, 1 for lights, 1 for mediums. Much like the BC/Destroyer skill changes it's clearly beneficial to train this up prior to the changes should you anticipate ever using these types of drones.

What I don't see is how the 2 skills intersect. I apologize if I missed a later clarification, but I don't see how CDO became less valuable in itself or how SDO in any way provides the same benefit after the changes as CDO does now. If you can break it down I'd appreciate it.


Fozzie clarified that you will be getting the two new skills at the level of whichever is higher out of SDO or CDO, since SDO currently unlocks the T1 and T2 light/medium drones, and therefore a situation could have occurred where someone was able to use T2 (or even T1) drones BEFORE the patch, but not after, since the requirement was being moved to an unrelated skill.

Hence, if you have CDO to, say, III, and SDO to V, then you don't need to train CDO any more in order to get both new skills at V.

I'm not sure what is happening to Drone Link Augmentors, which are currently unlocked by CDO, my guess would be they're getting moved to Drone Avionics.

I should also point out there most certainly IS a functionality change with Drone Avionics because SDO unlocks drones and Drone Avionics will not, the original blog post is really, really bad in some ways.
Ah I see it now, it was a post i missed, though that said, if you had SDO V you had access to the T2 drones, CDO wasn't needed, so I'm not sure why replicating SDO to CDO is necessary unless the CDO derivatives are being included in T2 progression, which I'm guessing is another change not stated in the blog itself.


The blog does actually say that the LDO/MDO skills will unlock light and medium drones.

On the other hand, it makes no mention of moving drone link augmentors, we're just sort of assuming that's going to be done sensibly.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#707 - 2014-04-03 20:09:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Icylce wrote:
Yes I got exactly what I trained for, but
…but nothing. You lost no time. If others gained more than you, you did not lose anything. If I slot in +5s and you only use +3s, you are not losing any time. You are getting exactly what you chose; what you chose is still with you; nothing is lost.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
And now I'm even more lost.

From what I understood

SDO is being renamed to Drone Avionics with no functionality change
CDO is being split into 2 skills, 1 for lights, 1 for mediums. Much like the BC/Destroyer skill changes it's clearly beneficial to train this up prior to the changes should you anticipate ever using these types of drones.

What I don't see is how the 2 skills intersect. I apologize if I missed a later clarification, but I don't see how CDO became less valuable in itself or how SDO in any way provides the same benefit after the changes as CDO does now. If you can break it down I'd appreciate it.

They intersect in terms of what bonuses they provide and what they actually unlock. The drone skills are pretty inconsistent in this regard compared to other skills.

CDO gives bonuses to light and medium drones, but don't unlock them. SDO doesn't give any bonuses that are specific to light and medium drones, but it does unlock them. This set-up is as if training Small Hybrids didn't give you the ability to use small hybrids — you'd only get more damage from them and would have to train sharpshooting to be able to fit the actual guns.

What this change does is bring everything back where it should be. Bonusing skills are also unlocking skills. CDO gives bonuses, so it should also unlock… except that it is being split into two different skills (again, just like how small and medium hybrids are different skills). Conversely, the range-giving skill will unlock the range-giving modules, rather than have the damage bonus skills unlock the range modules (because wtf?!).

The problem is that in the transition, people with SDO trained might lose their drone abilities if it was just transformed into Done Avionics since that skill is what currently unlocks the more advance drone types. So people who have trained SDO get to keep their abilities — iow, they get the comparable levels of Light and Medium Drones. At the same time, people who have trained CDO get to keep their light/medium drone damage bonuses — iow, they too get comparable levels of LIght and Medium Drones. If you have one of these two skills (CDO or SDO) trained higher than the other, you still get to keep your bonuses or abilities: the highest one determines which level you get Light and Medium Drones at. This might mean you end up with more ability or higher bonuses than you had previously.

So the steps are essentially:
• SDO and CDO get their unlocking abilities switched around (SDO unlocks range mods, CDO unlocks drones).
• CDO is split into LDO and MDO, and (for the moment) retains the level trained.
• If your (momentary) LDO and MDO levels are lower than what you have in SDO — which might mean you can no longer use T2 drones — the LDO/MDO levels are increased to your current SDO level to ensure you don't lose your current ability.
• SDO is then renamed as Drone Avionics and retains the level trained (since it's the same skill).

…and order is restored instated in the drone realm.

After a re-reread I'm seeing that statement being alluded to. I can't sat it comes across clearly, though that may just be me. I guess the key part I was missing was the statement that: "This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill." but that contradicts the statement that SDO would be retaining all it's functions. Maybe that is where i got confused.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#708 - 2014-04-03 20:12:25 UTC
Yeah, I've pointed that out earlier in the thread. There is directly contradictory language in the original post, and it still doesn't address several things, like drone link augmentors, the weird lack of connection between Drone Avionics and Advanced Drone Avionics going against every other Advanced skill in the game, and why Advanced Drone Avionics should be related to ewar drones.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#709 - 2014-04-03 20:15:08 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Is it 2011 or something?


Using a MJD dominix for hisec level 4's is not the only situation in which one would use sentries for pve.


I never claimed it is, im just trying to find out when the proper situation arises that an extra ~50dps over navy ones for killing frigates you can alpha anyway is more important than extra ~200dps.
When that extra 200DPS isn't applying well because you either failed to alpha them in time or they spawned on top of you.


Are we talking now some form of pve i have not experienced yet where just frigates spawn everywhere, with no larger ships?

Because in the end what you are suggesting is exchanging one extra volley per frigate for ~50% slower killing overall.

Its should have a strong reason.
So wait, your contention now is that for some reason if you use lights on small close orbiters you can't use sentries on bigger and/or farther targets? If a group spawns near you it will likely consist of different types but I'm probably not going to MJD away just because 2 of them are frigs, nor am I only going to use lights when 2 are BS's.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#710 - 2014-04-03 20:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
After a re-reread I'm seeing that statement being alluded to. I can't sat it comes across clearly, though that may just be me. I guess the key part I was missing was the statement that: "This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill." but that contradicts the statement that SDO would be retaining all it's functions. Maybe that is where i got confused.

No, it's certainly not entirely clear unless you parse it and reparse it a couple of times, then read the explanations, double-check the skills, and apply some implied logic. P

As Erasmus Phoenix points out, it hasn't actually been said that Drone Avionics will unlock drone link augs — it's just an assumption based on how all the bonuses and abilities are being put in order. Even if Fozzie forgot about that poor old module, I'm sure it's being quietly snuck into the change doc as we speak…
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#711 - 2014-04-03 20:19:53 UTC
CCP Dolan wrote:
Check out some ground breaking changes to everyone's favorite little helpers, drones.

You can find the dev blog with all it's graph and spreadsheety goodness here.


Good job on rebalancing Drone Interfacing. It was quite overpowered at +20%/lvl, and for that reason my standard advice to noobs has been to trai it to 4 pretty damn soon, except if Gallantean then they should instead train it to 5 even sooner. Now at +10/lvl it's just one more skill among others, quite useful to have, but not a must-have, nothing that stands our in blinking neon green italics, certainly not for noobs. And I'm still happy to have trained it to 5 years ago.

Also good that you're taking a look at drones, but I hope this stat balance is just the first step towards a larger project that will also look at drone behaviour, drone AI and so forth.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#712 - 2014-04-03 20:20:08 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:

I never claimed it is, im just trying to find out when the proper situation arises that an extra ~50dps over navy ones for killing frigates you can alpha anyway is more important than extra ~200dps.
When that extra 200DPS isn't applying well because you either failed to alpha them in time or they spawned on top of you.


Are we talking now some form of pve i have not experienced yet where just frigates spawn everywhere, with no larger ships?

Because in the end what you are suggesting is exchanging one extra volley per frigate for ~50% slower killing overall.

Its should have a strong reason.
So wait, your contention now is that for some reason if you use lights on small close orbiters you can't use sentries on bigger and/or farther targets? If a group spawns near you it will likely consist of different types but I'm probably not going to MJD away just because 2 of them are frigs, nor am I only going to use lights when 2 are BS's.


The original thought was that OBVIOUSLY everyone using sentries already has t2 smalls, which i found (maybe naively) silly, since even for the purpose you mention you are much better off using navy ones to deal with frigates and t2 sentries to mop up the rest.
Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#713 - 2014-04-03 20:21:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…but nothing. You lost no time. If others gained more than you, you did not lose anything. If I slot in +5s and you only use +3s, you are not losing any time. You are getting exactly what you chose; what you chose is still with you; nothing is lost.

It does not mean u dont loose time if u choose to do so. One does not rule out the other.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#714 - 2014-04-03 20:23:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:


As Erasmus Phoenix points out, it hasn't actually been said that Drone Avionics will unlock drone link augs — it's just an assumption based on how all the bonuses and abilities are being put in order. Even if Fozzie forgot about that poor old module, I'm sure it's being quietly snuck into the change doc as we speak…


It's weird, because the storyline Drone Link Augmenter is currently unlocked by Scout Drone Interfacing, while the T1, T2 and Officer ones are unlocked by Combat Drone Interfacing. I'm guessing whoever added that module just put it where they assumed it would logically go, not where the other modules of its type are.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#715 - 2014-04-03 20:24:10 UTC
Icylce wrote:
It does not mean u dont loose time if u choose to do so. One does not rule out the other.

What rules out the loss of time is the very simple fact that you didn't lose anything in the process. Again: someone else's gain is not your loss.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#716 - 2014-04-03 20:31:22 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
The original thought was that OBVIOUSLY everyone using sentries already has t2 smalls, which i found (maybe naively) silly, since even for the purpose you mention you are much better off using navy ones to deal with frigates and t2 sentries to mop up the rest.
Why use navy drones? T2 lights currently track more than well enough, MJD faster (though that shouldn't matter much for close orbiters) and hit harder.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#717 - 2014-04-03 20:32:42 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
The original thought was that OBVIOUSLY everyone using sentries already has t2 smalls, which i found (maybe naively) silly, since even for the purpose you mention you are much better off using navy ones to deal with frigates and t2 sentries to mop up the rest.
Why use navy drones? T2 lights currently track more than well enough, MJD faster (though that shouldn't matter much for close orbiters) and hit harder.


Because you have not trained them yet?
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#718 - 2014-04-03 20:39:46 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
The original thought was that OBVIOUSLY everyone using sentries already has t2 smalls, which i found (maybe naively) silly, since even for the purpose you mention you are much better off using navy ones to deal with frigates and t2 sentries to mop up the rest.
Why use navy drones? T2 lights currently track more than well enough, MJD faster (though that shouldn't matter much for close orbiters) and hit harder.


Because you have not trained them yet?


This is completely circular reasoning. You're saying people don't use T2 because they use navy because they can't use T2...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#719 - 2014-04-03 20:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Barton Breau wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
The original thought was that OBVIOUSLY everyone using sentries already has t2 smalls, which i found (maybe naively) silly, since even for the purpose you mention you are much better off using navy ones to deal with frigates and t2 sentries to mop up the rest.
Why use navy drones? T2 lights currently track more than well enough, MJD faster (though that shouldn't matter much for close orbiters) and hit harder.
Because you have not trained them yet?
So then they aren't "better off" as you claimed, but rather don't have the choice. That's fair, but that said, any T2 sentry user who didn't train the prerequisites for T2 lights save racial drone op 1 doesn't have much native engagement range to pop high angular velocity ships very well anyways unless loaded up on DLA's, MJD's making that even worse.

How many sentry users do you know without SDO V?
Druadan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#720 - 2014-04-03 20:45:17 UTC
I can't say I disagree with these changes, but I think Caldari and Amarr are the wrong way round on the new combat drones scale of Damage-Speed.