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Coffee Rocks
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6601 - 2014-03-27 23:44:00 UTC
Xuixien wrote:


You're free to keep repeating the same debunked rubbish though if it makes you feel like you did something important, though. I'm sure mommy and daddy will be proud - "Look at our little boy, voicing his own opinion and being a man in the world!"


Before I go for the day, I just had to repost that. It's rare that forum posts made me chuckle IRL. You realize the incredible irony therein, right?

Thanks, that made my day. Big smile

You never fly alone - Broadcast 4 Reps | Twitter: @thecoffeerocks | Steam: CoffeeRocks
Cha'ka Khan
Dark Skies Dojo
#6602 - 2014-03-27 23:45:10 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Wow theres a lot of posts in this thread. I wanna join in.

I'll try and take a step back from all the senationalist drama, and lay it out how I see it.

Erotica 1 does what she always does - offers to double (or quadruple) the isk people send her.
Sokhar wants in on the deal, sends isk.
Erotica asks him to read articles, sing songs, etc in order to win
Sokhar plays along with it, somewhat reluctantly, for an hour or two
Eventually he gets sick of it, rants and rages
The end.

How people can call that bullying, let alone "torture", is beyond me. Personally, I think Ripard Teg is a rather distasteful individual, last year he compared ganking mining ships to the-word-for-forced-non-consensual-sex-thats-censored-here, something I found incredibly offensive, as it trivialised an extremely horrific issue. Now he's at it again, describing the events I laid out above as abuse and "torture".

He's not just a hacky sensationalist writer on the level of any garbage tabloid, he's a very odious little twerp, as comparing such extreme real life suffering to trivial video-game nonsense is deeply offensive and trivialises real human tragedy in order to get page hits for his blog, or to push his agenda (such as skuppering a potential CSM candidates chances with smear campaigns, etc).

Sokhar for his vile racial slurs and death threats, and Ripard Teg for the reasons above are the truly repulsive creatures in this whole ordeal. Oh, and also the astonishingly hypocritical people in this thread who are condoning, encouraging, or otherwise wishing real life violence and suffering on Erotica1 or anyone else.



You sir are an educated gentleman and i approve of your post. Big smile

The only thing we have to fear, is new pilots and AFK miners. 
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6603 - 2014-03-27 23:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: corbexx
So I had a run in with the bonus room last night. I had jerry rin ask me to join there comms, I said i was in middle of chatting to others and would be a hour. He continued to press for me to join now and not wait this went on for a fair while.

After I finished chatting to others I said I was free and joined there comms I checked the channels and I saw bonus room I got moved to this room and there was 4 to 6 others init already.

I was told straight away I wasn't allowed to record the convo. I asked if this had anything todo with erotica 1 and was told "yeah this is the bonus room" so I just said" I didn't want anything to do with them and would leave", they laughed and I left.

within seconds or minutes at the longest I had them posting on my CSM thread. and then had them spam convo invites to me. I accepted one and said didnt want anything to do with them and left but the spam invites continued till I blocked them.

What I will say is these people are persistent don't give up and will go out there way to troll and get reaction out of you.

I very much wonder just how many other people they have gone after or done this to, to be honest its rather disturbing. On the plus side I do have a list of people in that channel when I was in there. So Maybe i can do something about it in game.

On a separate note if you listen to that recording and can't see its totally ******* out of order I really worry for you.

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#6604 - 2014-03-27 23:45:19 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Disclaimer: As my previous posts, this is not a derail.
I will however take my tongue out of my cheeck where it has been lodged for the past few days.

This girl posted some bad things about EVE online and it's playerbase.
CCP hires her.
Everyone grabs a pitchfork and tries to burn her at the stake.
CCP defends her and steps in hard on everyone commenting on the topic.

A guy drunkenly tells someone to kill himself at fanfest.
Everyone grabs a pitchfork and tries to burn him at the stake.
He becomes the most powerfull dude in the universe and is more popular asked by the media than actual game devs.

This other dude totally humiliates a fellow player and calls him retarted.
Nobody moves.
Suddenly I see this guy commentating an official EVE tournament.

A guy gets shouted at by a racist for asking said racist to sing a song.
Nobody moves.
A CSM member a month later reposts said recording and adds to it: THIS IS TORTURE
Everyone grabs a pitchfork and tries to burn him at the stake.

That's what has been happening over the years. There are many more examples. Please stop with the double/tripple standards. Please stop with your faux-offended reactions, please just enjoy our game.
Don't try to fix what isn't broken and get some perspective.

D. OUT (for now)

Bear


Yes but in this case, the "victim" got REALLY MAD!!!!

That makes it wrong, because we're all responsible for other people's subjective feelings.


Also, many people like myself weren't around when those previous events occurred. Also, I can assure you that if I was walking down the road and seen someone was being treated so poorly, I would step in like I have many times before. Now that I am apart of the Eve Community, I'm providing my input to the matter at hand. This is believe is unacceptable.

The "Bitter Vets" may have accepted this type of behavior. But by many of the responses in this thread, it seems to be this has crossed the line and many have had enough.



Oh okay.

So it was okay before, but now you're here, so something must be done!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Sapheni
Black Moon Mining
#6605 - 2014-03-27 23:45:54 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
[
The "Bitter Vets" may have accepted this type of behavior. But by many of the responses in this thread, it seems to be this has crossed the line and many have had enough.



No. It was never accepted. The game was never like this. Unless by "bittervets" you actually mean noobs who've joined in the last five years or so.
Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6606 - 2014-03-27 23:46:18 UTC
Coffee Rocks wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Coffee Rock wrote:

Ban him, those involved in the bonus room crap, and all alt accounts.



Ban him for what, exactly?


God, you are an incessant troll. I'm almost impressed only because I cannot figure out WHEN you sleep or work. Smile

You read my first comment on this which laid out the reasons - i know you did, b/c you trolled then Blink. I put my reasons there. If you need to see it again without scrolling all that way, go to my blog post. I copy/pasted my forum post there.

That's it for me. o/

"It's not about the scam. You want to humiliate them. Poke them. Toy with them. Make them cry."

Aside from the cyclic argument this quote belongs to, I like how Coffee concludes that those guilty of these sins should be banned.

Anyone else worried how such a decision from CCP would pretty much lead to the ban of quite literally every EVE Online player?

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#6607 - 2014-03-27 23:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Coffee Rocks wrote:
The fact that we reacted so strongly was surprising to him, obviously surprising to you, and probably a wee bit to the folks responsible for this crap.

I don't think there is any surprise that there was a strong response.

The whole issue of ganking, scamming, awoxing and other pirate related behaviour, particularly within highsec has had an undercurrent of antagonism on the forum for a while.

The situation has been building and this was a trigger.

So the fact there has been a strong response is not an issue.

What is most concerning is the tone of the response. Instead of sensible debate, even from the very OP this was about lynching someone.

People have jumped on their soap box, noose in hand and used the exact same approach they have complained about.

This is the ridiculous part. There was never any need to lynch someone over this. It could have all been done in a civil manner (even in GD).

The net effect is Newtonian. The extreme views on one side have created an equally strong response on the opposite side.

People who would have fallen in a middle ground have moved one way or the other (I'll include myself in that group).

If there are any bans at all to come out of this, there need to be multiple and on both sides of the divide. Otherwise whichever group feels it won this thread may take confidence out of that and further inflame the situation in the future.

Hopefully CCP is able to thread the fine line that actually removes the emotion from people and allows everyone to just move on.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#6608 - 2014-03-27 23:46:53 UTC
Coffee Rocks wrote:
Xuixien wrote:


You're free to keep repeating the same debunked rubbish though if it makes you feel like you did something important, though. I'm sure mommy and daddy will be proud - "Look at our little boy, voicing his own opinion and being a man in the world!"


Before I go for the day, I just had to repost that. It's rare that forum posts made me chuckle IRL. You realize the incredible irony therein, right?

Thanks, that made my day. Big smile


Sure. If you can point out how anything I've posted has been debunked, I would be more than happy to take your comment with more than a grain of salt.

I'll be waiting. Cool

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Mario Putzo
#6609 - 2014-03-27 23:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
corbexx wrote:
So I had a run in with the bonus room last night. I had jerry rin ask me to join there comms, I said i was in middle of chatting to others and would be a hour. He continued to press for me to join now and not wait this went on for a fair while.

Afteri finished chatting to others I said I was free and joined there comms i checked the channels and I saw bonus room i got moved to this room and there was 4 to 6 others init already.

I was told straight away I wasn't allowed to record the convo. I asked if this had anything todo with erotica 1 and was told "yeah this is the bonus room" so i just said" I didn't want anything to do with them and would leave, they laughed and I left.

within seconds or minutes at the longest I had them posting on my CSM thread. and then had them spam convo invites to me. I accepted one and said didnt want anything to do with them and left but the spam invites continued till I blocked them.

What I will say is these people are persistent don't give up and will go out there way to troll and get reaction out of you.

I very much wonder just how many other people they have gone after or done this to, to be honest its rather disturbing. On the plus side I do have a list of people in that channel when I was in there. So Maybe i can do something about it in game.

On a seperate note if you listen to that recording and can't see its totally ******* out of order I really worry for you.


But you were able to avoid them ya? I mean you didn't get locked on comms? Or trapped in convo with them? There were in game measures and out of game measures that allowed you to avoid people you didn't want to deal with?
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6610 - 2014-03-27 23:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kristalll
Ssieth wrote:
H aVo K wrote:
Dani Dusette wrote:
But it's legit gameplay within the boundary of this game. Unlike the issue which this thread is about.


Maybe you can answer where so many have failed, then:

What makes this gameplay less legit than other acceptable types of "tear extraction"?


OK - I'll take a punt at this one.

Other types of 'tear extraction' - ganking etc is generally about targetting in-game assets in-game. It is an extension of other in-game activities.

This is about enticing someone to an external comms channel for the specific purpose of publically humiliating them.


You are aware that tear extraction, by definition, has NOTHING to do with in game assets. That's not a question, because we both know this.

anytime someone says "ah, your tears are delicious". That has nothing to do with in game assets.

Also, what about singing ransoms? The only purpose of those could be humiliation, right?

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#6611 - 2014-03-27 23:50:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Coffee Rock wrote:

Ban him, those involved in the bonus room crap, and all alt accounts.



Ban him for what, exactly?


For being smart.


  • For having the foresight to ensure that their marks are called "clients" to make things sound more legitimate.
  • For having the foresight to ensure that their clients are treated with the utmost respect, while they're being asked to do things that strip away their dignity, so that everyone else can laugh at them
  • For having the foresight to keep their actions within the grey area that is EVE morality (or lack thereof)
  • For knowing that this would eventually happen, and making sure to take every precaution to make it hard to nail them for any wrongdoing
  • For acting in a way that's vile, yet hard to write rules against. Rules that would inadvertently hammer those who simply partake in the more run of the mill, morally ambiguous stuff like murder, extortion, and theft, that take place in EVE at all times.
  • For finding a way of doing something that *feels* too personal, without actually resorting to anything that actually *is* personal


To me, it honestly almost seems like they were trying too hard to keep their noses clean, because they knew that what they were doing was crossing the line.

My gut feel is that that alone... that skirting of rules in order to be able to do something a bit edgier than just run of the mill scamming.... that that is worth seizing assets and banning for. Simply because it feels like they're playing a game with the anti-harassment portion of the rules.

Personally, I think the part that bothers me the most about all of this, is that I'm *in* the "ban 'em" camp, but can't come up with a good explanation for why that wouldn't encompass half of the people playing EVE at any one time.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6612 - 2014-03-27 23:50:44 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
How many times are you going to answer his question before you realize that he'll never accept your answer because it doesn't fit his agenda?

How should I answer it so it fits his agenda?

Oh god.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#6613 - 2014-03-27 23:50:46 UTC
None of this would be a problem if there was an in game method of "payback" for scammers. As is, they never undock and no amount of chest beating or forum posting will ever "punish" them. Obviously this is a particularly sadistic addition to scamming but most people would be fine with it if they could blow up a bunch of Erotica1's assets against his will.

While I think this whole thing is pretty revolting, I won't lose sleep if no one gets banned. On the other hand I also wouldn't lose sleep if people do.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#6614 - 2014-03-27 23:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Muestereate
Kristalll wrote:
Coffee Rocks wrote:
H aVo K wrote:
Dani Dusette wrote:
But it's legit gameplay within the boundary of this game. Unlike the issue which this thread is about.


Maybe you can answer where so many have failed, then:

What makes this gameplay less legit than other acceptable types of "tear extraction"?


Go back and read the last 220+ pages and numerous blog posts that are now out there on this subject (Ripard, myself, Mabrik, etc etc). It's been said.

Also, NOT gameplay.

Scamming? Gameplay. Drawing the victim out till he snaps? F**king sick.


I admittedly haven't read all 300 pages, but I have read a lot, and as of yet, I can't find any explanations of what the difference is.

Your last paragraph assumes the goal is to get the "victim" to snap and that all actions are taken to get them to snap. This couldn't be further from the truth.



I'm gonna go out on a limb and express an opinion that tear extraction is not good game-play. Its emotionally damaging but even more-so when its considered a shameful act to express the emotions and stress we all feel on big losses. These losses are the most real in any game out there. Its one of this games most salient points. This can provide the energy to gather as social units or progress as human beings. When the natural and nearly universal pain is socially repressed by a vocal minority such as these forums or external social platforms like TS etc, it creates emotionally and cognitively unhealthy conditions. When I say unhealthy, at the very least Im talking about a negative growth platform.

Now EVE with its complex conflict systems can allow us instead to stretch and grow in areas no other game can. The strategic planners can strategize. cunning business men can hone their skills. mathematicians modelers and programmers can apply technologies, student can work projects and people just just come here, blow a few things up and blow off steam.

But if that steam is not allowed to blow off, and we do it by inflicting shame and guilt, this place loses its value and instead becomes a place where increasing negative internal conflicts can be externalized. Bad thinking becomes our realities and huge amount of EVES potential as a positive force in our lives worth paying for dissolves and we are left to extreme ends like what were supposed to be talking about.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6615 - 2014-03-27 23:51:07 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kristalll wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
H aVo K wrote:
Dani Dusette wrote:
But it's legit gameplay within the boundary of this game. Unlike the issue which this thread is about.


Maybe you can answer where so many have failed, then:

What makes this gameplay less legit than other acceptable types of "tear extraction"?


The gameplay that consists of some psychopath using CCP's product as a tool to lure victims to a private site for his sick pleasure?

That gameplay?

Mr Epeen Cool


So, when Skyfighters pointed a CCP employee and made him sing Barbie Girl to get released?


Why do you quote? None of your responses ever have anything to do with what's above them.

Mr Epeen Cool


so you're saying that Skyfighters doign a singing ransom on a CCP employee was not using CCP's product as a tool, to pull someone into a EXTRENAL VOICE SERVER for their pleasure?

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#6616 - 2014-03-27 23:52:13 UTC
Can anyone tell me what the problem is? Why are people so outraged and angry?

Erotica offered to quadruple his space-game monies if he gave her it all
Sokhar wanted to take the deal, gave her all his space-game monies
Erotica asked him to read articles and sing songs to get the payout
Sokhar played along for a while, then got sick and raged

To me, thats an utterly trivial string of events - it's nonsense, a wasted couple of hours, and a setback in a video game.

Why on gods green earth are people acting like Erotica bullied him, tortured him, broke in-game rules, broke real life laws, or anything else.

Please, I really would like an explanation - and not just a regurgitation of the sensationalist claptrap Ripard Teg spewed on his blog for page hits / to demonise a competing csm candidate.

I'll wait
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6617 - 2014-03-27 23:52:34 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
As I said before, the only requirements are that you follow the rules.


Where can I read these rules?

I've already explained them to you.

Oh god.
Mario Putzo
#6618 - 2014-03-27 23:53:22 UTC
You know if they made him sing Bieber...That would be torture.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#6619 - 2014-03-27 23:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Mario Putzo wrote:
corbexx wrote:
So I had a run in with the bonus room last night. I had jerry rin ask me to join there comms, I said i was in middle of chatting to others and would be a hour. He continued to press for me to join now and not wait this went on for a fair while.

Afteri finished chatting to others I said I was free and joined there comms i checked the channels and I saw bonus room i got moved to this room and there was 4 to 6 others init already.

I was told straight away I wasn't allowed to record the convo. I asked if this had anything todo with erotica 1 and was told "yeah this is the bonus room" so i just said" I didn't want anything to do with them and would leave, they laughed and I left.

within seconds or minutes at the longest I had them posting on my CSM thread. and then had them spam convo invites to me. I accepted one and said didnt want anything to do with them and left but the spam invites continued till I blocked them.

What I will say is these people are persistent don't give up and will go out there way to troll and get reaction out of you.

I very much wonder just how many other people they have gone after or done this to, to be honest its rather disturbing. On the plus side I do have a list of people in that channel when I was in there. So Maybe i can do something about it in game.

On a seperate note if you listen to that recording and can't see its totally ******* out of order I really worry for you.


But you were able to avoid them ya? I mean you didn't get locked on comms? Or trapped in convo with them? There were in game measures and out of game measures that allowed you to avoid people you didn't want to deal with?


Actually, corbexx contacted me because he wanted my vote for the CSM. He wanted to talk on comms so I linked him our comms... we got tired of waiting so after an hour one of us (I guess it was Jerry) pulled corbexx in. After about five seconds he insulted us by saying he "didn't want to be associated with people like us" and left.

I'm unaware of corbexx being spammed convo invites, but he did invite me to a private convo and once I accepted it, other people from BU were pulled in. He then reiterated that he "didn't want to be associated with people like us" and left again.

I posted in corbexx's thread and he made a not-so-thinly veiled threat, stating that he "knew where our wormholes are now" - which is ironic, because none of us actually live in WH's. -lel-

Corbexx is very good at twisting and reframing reality. I'm sure he'll have a very strong running for the CSM and he definitely has my support and my vote, 100%.

I support corbexx for CSM!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#6620 - 2014-03-27 23:55:38 UTC
329 pages so far in this thread, I admit I haven't read all of them but felt that a comment was justified.

There is a tendency to get distracted by individual comments and miss the big picture. I am not going to comment specifically about any one event or player.

Firstly Eve online is a Game. It is there for enjoyment and diversion to most players.

But For some it is an outlet for the baser human drives, and a means to punish humiliate and degrade others in a way that would result in punishment or social rejection in real life.

It appears that the latter are becoming more visible and influential in game. Whether the numbers are growing, or they are just more active is uncertain.

Riptard has picked on a very visible and nasty example of this behaviour.

The question for CCP is do they believe that encouraging this behaviour,- (by not speaking out against this, it encourages the belief that they at least condone and approve of it.) -is a wise business decision?

The Game certainly is getting less enjoyable to play for many as this attitude is getting more widespread and frustrating for those who wish to enjoy playing Eve.

Eve should not be a safe happy fairyland where everyone is lovely, but neither should the Sandbox be a cesspit.

There is a balance here to be found, and silence is not going to encourage it to be found.

Riptards article is a good start at bringing things into the light of day, but we do not want to all light pitchforks and go after the nearest offender, that way the whole point is lost in a little mob vengeance against a nasty example of the trend.

In my opinion we should not Ban retrospectively for a previous offence, but a public warning for extreme and public cases, should be issued when things cross the line. With Private warnings for less public issues. And reoffending would then justify sanctions as appropriate after this.

If CCP wish to persist as a business then a clear policy explaining the the game is not there as a means of causing serious distress to others, but for all to enjoy within reason. The fine line between scamming and Ganking being acceptable, and simply doing Things to cause distress needs to be clearly defined. The alternative is the Game will cease to appeal to those who wish to pay a monthly fee to play.

In addition If this whole issue does go public and CCP are seen not to have acted, then the Negative publicity will NOT encourage long term subscribers.

The ball is in CCP's court, silence will be read to mean that the Griefers, bullies and sociopaths are the current target market.

are there sufficient to keep the Servers running?




There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE