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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4561 - 2014-03-27 07:39:44 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Already been cited multiple times. You may not harass other players. You may not cause damage to CCP's reputation.

I really think you need to look at the precedent set on that harassment clause. CCP is VERY loose on it. This is by design. One of their game trailers focuses on taking revenge for actions that happened a year before for god's sake.

Harassment is harassment. Harming CCP's reputation and the reputation of EvE is harming CCP's reputation and the reputation of EvE.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4562 - 2014-03-27 07:40:48 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You may not harass other players. You may not cause damage to CCP's reputation.

Erotica 1 has done neither of those things.

Perhaps not in your fantasy world but in the real world she has. Would you like me to link to the forums of the various games forums which are painting EVE players and CCP's premier game as aweful?


Then the only person who has damaged CCP's reputation is Ripard Teg, who decided to raise a hue and cry about it to further whatever agenda he's pushing this time.

Because it happened a month ago, and no one cared until the puppets were told to cry about it to everyone they could find.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Roggle
Tactically Euthanized
#4563 - 2014-03-27 07:41:09 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
Roggle wrote:
A racist, homophobic, who threatens to commit murder is scammed. Ya he is a real innocent victim here...


Even if what you said is true, if homo"phobia" was a real fear and "racism" wasn't innate in everyone in at least the pretense of social outgrouping. What does it matter?

Do juries decide sentencing based on the pathology of the victim?

The "victim" broke the law (EULA) when he threatend to kill someone. It's not a gray area like what E1 did. Yet no one is mobing up with pitch forks for his head. Guy was a jerk, greedy for money and violent. Let him rot.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4564 - 2014-03-27 07:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Infinity Ziona wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Already been cited multiple times. You may not harass other players. You may not cause damage to CCP's reputation.

I really think you need to look at the precedent set on that harassment clause. CCP is VERY loose on it. This is by design. One of their game trailers focuses on taking revenge for actions that happened a year before for god's sake.

Harassment is harassment. Harming CCP's reputation and the reputation of EvE is harming CCP's reputation and the reputation of EvE.


You're saying that as if either one of these things has occurred.

But since you mention harassment, I say again, if Ero is banned for it, then so too should Sokhar be banned for it. Don't make the mistake of thinking he's pure and innocent here. Unless you're just on a vendetta against Ero of course.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4565 - 2014-03-27 07:42:34 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Already been cited multiple times. You may not harass other players.

Nope.

3. HARASSMENT

An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player:

a. Organizes or participates in a corporation or group that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies.

Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:

a. Is abusive, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, ethnically or racially offensive, or threatening to another player or an official EVE Online representative.
b. Uses role-playing as an excuse for violating the guidelines regarding fair play with others.
c. Sends excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or support tickets, files support tickets with false information or repeatedly under the wrong category in an effort to circumvent the customer support queue.
[source]

E1 did not commit 3 a., other 3 a., 3 b., or 3c.

Infinity Ziona wrote:

You may not cause damage to CCP's reputation.

Prove that either (1) CCP thinks this damages their reputation or (2) CCP's reputation has actual been damaged. Hint: It is impossible to do either of those things until CCP comments directly on those issues.

Wrong on all counts. Nice effort though. Big smile
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4566 - 2014-03-27 07:43:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You may not harass other players. You may not cause damage to CCP's reputation.

Erotica 1 has done neither of those things.

Perhaps not in your fantasy world but in the real world she has. Would you like me to link to the forums of the various games forums which are painting EVE players and CCP's premier game as aweful?


Then the only person who has damaged CCP's reputation is Ripard Teg, who decided to raise a hue and cry about it to further whatever agenda he's pushing this time.

Because it happened a month ago, and no one cared until the puppets were told to cry about it to everyone they could find.

The Julian Assange and Edward Snowden defense lol. Shoot the messenger... there would be no message without the actions of Erotica1 and co. The responsibility is firmly in their court unfortunately for them.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#4567 - 2014-03-27 07:44:02 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
getting them to gamble their stuff and then using that EvE virtual property as leverage to coerce them onto a team speak server where they are humiliated and harassed. They then post the recorded conversation on EvE forums to further humiliate that player.

In real life, people choose to go to casinos, even though it is well established that mathematically, the house always wins. It is a loosing game, but greed or other motivations lead them to choose to play.

So too here. Every step of the way, the "victim" had a choice.
He chose to get his isk doubled, though he suspected a scam.
He chose to enter the bonus room.
He chose to read the articles provided to him.
He chose to sing.
He chose to leave.
He chose to return.
He chose to threaten.
He chose to leave again.
He chose to return again.

You can disagree with his choices, but they were his to make every step of the way. At every step he could stop. And he did, not once, not twice, but thrice.

You can say that E1 manipulated him into staying and returning, but that disenfranchises the victim in our analysis. It removes his agency as an actor. You turn him from being a human being to being merely cattle, and I do not believe that is the case here. My opinion of the victim is not so low.


We did not lower him to cattle Ero did. But yes this is an issue that I call dehumanizing. When they profile violent criminals, this trait always shows up and the lack of it often signals a need for a different type of investigation. This trait shows up in serial killers in particular. Can't recall the citation, 3rd party ex-FBI training on profiling.
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#4568 - 2014-03-27 07:44:53 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
lollerwaffle wrote:
Space Juden wrote:
Roggle wrote:
A racist, homophobic, who threatens to commit murder is scammed. Ya he is a real innocent victim here...


Even if what you said is true, if homo"phobia" was a real fear and "racism" wasn't innate in everyone in at least the pretense of social outgrouping. What does it matter?

Do juries decide sentencing based on the pathology of the victim?

LOLwat, victim of an video game scam of imaginary money makes RL death threats, displaying racist and homophobic tendencies. Yes, i believe I do know which way the jury will swing in this case. It's a no brainer really, unless said jury has trouble differentiating between RL and virtual worlds.. What's more when the supposed 'victim' can walk away with just the click of a mousebutton, and maybe 2 more to ensure he never has to come into contact with people he thinks aren't nice to him.


"So, I know my client burned his victims alive, but after all they said a naughty word in the past so... it was ok"

What does your snarky one-liner have to do with anything I posted?

Also, are you equating burning people alive to things happening in a video game? Wow, you really need some adult supervision. I know the game is 12+ and all, but still...
Silvara Nocturn
Nocturn Industries
#4569 - 2014-03-27 07:45:52 UTC
lollerwaffle wrote:
Silvara Nocturn wrote:
CCP has to take action because this game is rated pegi 12 and allows minors to play. If this happens to a child they are royally screwed and rightfully so. The only way for them to allow this behaviour is to raise the age limit up to 18 or 21 depending on country. Which they I doubt they will do.

You can claim that no one would subject a child to this but that would be a baseless claim. You can claim that this can happen anyway, while this is true CCP will still be held accountable for the fact that they allow this sort of behaviour in a game that allows minors to play.Online Interactions are not rated, but you can't ignore them either. Especially since EO gameplay is mostly online interactions.

As for choice, yes Sohkar had a choice he could have stopped it. Erotica 1 also had a choice, he could have stopped it too. Neither choices are consequential to the question at hand. Does the Eve Online community think what Erotica 1 has done is acceptable?

CCP should do the parents' jobs for them?

Game is rated 12+, doesn't mean parents can throw away all sense of responsibility in educating their children and expose them to this behaviour, for which the game is fairly well known. Parents who don't know anything about this game should make it their responsibility to at least google it instead of throwing away all common sense and responsibilities because of the '12+' label.



CCP will still be held responsible whether it's right or wrong is inconsequential.
Dacus Minor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4570 - 2014-03-27 07:46:19 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
getting them to gamble their stuff and then using that EvE virtual property as leverage to coerce them onto a team speak server where they are humiliated and harassed. They then post the recorded conversation on EvE forums to further humiliate that player.

In real life, people choose to go to casinos, even though it is well established that mathematically, the house always wins. It is a loosing game, but greed or other motivations lead them to choose to play.

So too here. Every step of the way, the "victim" had a choice.
He chose to get his isk doubled, though he suspected a scam.
He chose to enter the bonus room.
He chose to read the articles provided to him.
He chose to sing.
He chose to leave.
He chose to return.
He chose to threaten.
He chose to leave again.
He chose to return again.

You can disagree with his choices, but they were his to make every step of the way. At every step he could stop. And he did, not once, not twice, but thrice.

You can say that E1 manipulated him into staying and returning, but that disenfranchises the victim in our analysis. It removes his agency as an actor. You turn him from being a human being to being merely cattle, and I do not believe that is the case here. My opinion of the victim is not so low.


At any given moment, we all have at least one choice and the truth is that more often than not, we take the wrong turns... I do not think this should be about the victim's choice but the actions of the perpetuators and whether one considers them 'normal behavior' or not. The rest is gossip...

If you think this behavior is 'normal' then... I rest my case.

For you and all the rest that condone these actions, including Erotica1 and the gang, all I have to says is: what goes around comes around...
Space Juden
Supermassive Potato Pancake
#4571 - 2014-03-27 07:47:10 UTC
Roggle wrote:
Space Juden wrote:
Roggle wrote:
A racist, homophobic, who threatens to commit murder is scammed. Ya he is a real innocent victim here...


Even if what you said is true, if homo"phobia" was a real fear and "racism" wasn't innate in everyone in at least the pretense of social outgrouping. What does it matter?

Do juries decide sentencing based on the pathology of the victim?

The "victim" broke the law (EULA) when he threatend to kill someone. It's not a gray area like what E1 did. Yet no one is mobing up with pitch forks for his head. Guy was a jerk, greedy for money and violent. Let him rot.


I don't really have a side in this, I have opinions about it though. It's just mildly irritating that people are proposing that everything which happened was retroactively justified because in a rage the scammee said bad words
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#4572 - 2014-03-27 07:47:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Already been cited multiple times. You may not harass other players. You may not cause damage to CCP's reputation.

I really think you need to look at the precedent set on that harassment clause. CCP is VERY loose on it. This is by design. One of their game trailers focuses on taking revenge for actions that happened a year before for god's sake.

Harassment is harassment. Harming CCP's reputation and the reputation of EvE is harming CCP's reputation and the reputation of EvE.

CCP markets EVE as a persistent, dark, cold world where skullduggery is allowed and often encouraged. They don't have a reputation for pink fluffy cuddly unicorn teddy bears...
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4573 - 2014-03-27 07:47:49 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:


You can say that E1 manipulated him into staying and returning, but that disenfranchises the victim in our analysis. It removes his agency as an actor. You turn him from being a human being to being merely cattle, and I do not believe that is the case here. My opinion of the victim is not so low.


We did not lower him to cattle Ero did. But yes this is an issue that I call dehumanizing. When they profile violent criminals, this trait always shows up and the lack of it often signals a need for a different type of investigation. This trait shows up in serial killers in particular. Can't recall the citation, 3rd party ex-FBI training on profiling.


You lower him to cattle the moment you suggest he lost his own individual agency, the moment when you suggest he no longer controls his actions. If that is the case you wish to pursue, so be it. But I will not insult the dignity of the man in question by making such a suggestion.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4574 - 2014-03-27 07:48:32 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
It was outright predatory behavior designed and intended to cause harm to another person.

Was the person harmed? Do you have any evidence to suggest that Erotica's intention was to harm another player? I've known Erotica 1 for quite a while and I believe he has no intention of harming anyone. I've often been quite surprised by his compassion, showing sympathy in situations where I didn't.

If anything, Erotica 1 is more of a scapegoat for all of our antics. Erotica 1 is the figurehead and organizer of the operation, but everything that happens in that room aren't his own ideas. The 'mayo pic' episode, well people had their information wrong about that, so I thought people were referring to something else. It was actually peanut butter, not mayo and it wasn't even Erotica's idea. That was actually my idea, except I wanted him to use a marker pen (this was in retaliation to one of Erotica's rivals, who had one of his victims make a sign pic for him. We wanted to out-do him). The client didn't have a pen and ended up using peanut butter. I'm not sure how that happened, but I remember the client was enjoying himself. He was one of the happiest clients I've seen in the bonus room and he was just there for enjoyment. He knew he was likely to lose his assets and he didn't care. Great client all round.

Oh god.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#4575 - 2014-03-27 07:49:00 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
Roggle wrote:
Space Juden wrote:
Roggle wrote:
A racist, homophobic, who threatens to commit murder is scammed. Ya he is a real innocent victim here...


Even if what you said is true, if homo"phobia" was a real fear and "racism" wasn't innate in everyone in at least the pretense of social outgrouping. What does it matter?

Do juries decide sentencing based on the pathology of the victim?

The "victim" broke the law (EULA) when he threatend to kill someone. It's not a gray area like what E1 did. Yet no one is mobing up with pitch forks for his head. Guy was a jerk, greedy for money and violent. Let him rot.


I don't really have a side in this, I have opinions about it though. It's just mildly irritating that people are proposing that everything which happened was retroactively justified because in a rage the scammee said bad words


Things work that way on backwards days. And, as it happens...

Mr Epeen Cool
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4576 - 2014-03-27 07:49:21 UTC
Also the alpha pods were my idea too, I actually petitioned CCP about that one before we started doing it.

Oh god.
lollerwaffle
Perkone
Caldari State
#4577 - 2014-03-27 07:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: lollerwaffle
Space Juden wrote:
Roggle wrote:
Space Juden wrote:
Roggle wrote:
A racist, homophobic, who threatens to commit murder is scammed. Ya he is a real innocent victim here...


Even if what you said is true, if homo"phobia" was a real fear and "racism" wasn't innate in everyone in at least the pretense of social outgrouping. What does it matter?

Do juries decide sentencing based on the pathology of the victim?

The "victim" broke the law (EULA) when he threatend to kill someone. It's not a gray area like what E1 did. Yet no one is mobing up with pitch forks for his head. Guy was a jerk, greedy for money and violent. Let him rot.


I don't really have a side in this, I have opinions about it though. It's just mildly irritating that people are proposing that everything which happened was retroactively justified because in a rage the scammee said bad words

No. The OP of the thread, and many other supporters of this so-called 'victim' are asking for E1's assets and ISK to be seized, and for CCP to perma-ban them. Then come the hordes of white knights for both sides.

No one is proposing that what E1 did is justified. Just that what he did is within the realms of what is allowed to an extent in the game, and calls for his account to be banned permanently are not justified and overblown. Further, the supporters are claiming that the 'victim' was bullied or harassed or even forced to be subject to humiliation, when all it takes is to make the choice to leave the chat room. Further, others are also saying that the RL death threats, racist and homophobic language etc., from the 'victim' are actually worse than what the perpetrators did.
Dieterlin
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#4578 - 2014-03-27 07:49:57 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Already been cited multiple times. You may not harass other players.

Nope.

3. HARASSMENT

An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if a player:

a. Organizes or participates in a corporation or group that is based on or advocates any anti-ethnic, anti-gay, anti-religious, racist, sexist or other hate-mongering philosophies.

Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player:

a. Is abusive, obscene, offensive, sexually explicit, ethnically or racially offensive, or threatening to another player or an official EVE Online representative.
b. Uses role-playing as an excuse for violating the guidelines regarding fair play with others.
c. Sends excessive e-mails, EVE-mails or support tickets, files support tickets with false information or repeatedly under the wrong category in an effort to circumvent the customer support queue.
[source]

E1 did not commit 3 a., other 3 a., 3 b., or 3c.

Infinity Ziona wrote:

You may not cause damage to CCP's reputation.

Prove that either (1) CCP thinks this damages their reputation or (2) CCP's reputation has actual been damaged. Hint: It is impossible to do either of those things until CCP comments directly on those issues.

Wrong on all counts. Nice effort though. Big smile


I'm pretty sure there is a case for 3.a(ii) for both Ero1 and Sohkar, but that would be repeating myself for like the fifth time by now...
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4579 - 2014-03-27 07:50:17 UTC
Dacus Minor wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
getting them to gamble their stuff and then using that EvE virtual property as leverage to coerce them onto a team speak server where they are humiliated and harassed. They then post the recorded conversation on EvE forums to further humiliate that player.

In real life, people choose to go to casinos, even though it is well established that mathematically, the house always wins. It is a loosing game, but greed or other motivations lead them to choose to play.

So too here. Every step of the way, the "victim" had a choice.
He chose to get his isk doubled, though he suspected a scam.
He chose to enter the bonus room.
He chose to read the articles provided to him.
He chose to sing.
He chose to leave.
He chose to return.
He chose to threaten.
He chose to leave again.
He chose to return again.

You can disagree with his choices, but they were his to make every step of the way. At every step he could stop. And he did, not once, not twice, but thrice.

You can say that E1 manipulated him into staying and returning, but that disenfranchises the victim in our analysis. It removes his agency as an actor. You turn him from being a human being to being merely cattle, and I do not believe that is the case here. My opinion of the victim is not so low.


At any given moment, we all have at least one choice and the truth is that more often than not, we take the wrong turns... I do not think this should be about the victim's choice but the actions of the perpetuators and whether one considers them 'normal behavior' or not. The rest is gossip...

If you think this behavior is 'normal' then... I rest my case.

For you and all the rest that condone these actions, including Erotica1 and the gang, all I have to says is: what goes around comes around...


What behaviour? What's normal? Sokhar's choices are entirely relevant and far from gossip, and he's as much if not more a perpetrator as anyone else. The analogies that have been flying around lately have been ridiculous but let me attempt to clarify with one myself.

What Sokhar chose to do amounts to the same thing as someone who shoves his **** into a hot pie to see what it's like, and gets it burned. He made the choice, now he has to deal with the consequences of that choice.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4580 - 2014-03-27 07:51:23 UTC
Dacus Minor wrote:
I do not think this should be about the victim's choice but the actions of the perpetuators and whether one considers them 'normal behavior' or not. The rest is gossip...

If you think this behavior is 'normal' then... I rest my case.

For you and all the rest that condone these actions, including Erotica1 and the gang, all I have to says is: what goes around comes around...

Most of us do not condone erotica 1's actions. I find them repulsive. But Erotica 1 broke no rules and has expressed every desire to stay within CCP's guidelines. If CCP calls for him to change or stop his behavior, he will. They have not done so.

You shouldn't be banned just because someone feels you should be banned. You get banned when you break the rules.