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Iso Anneto
Doomheim
#2961 - 2014-03-26 16:03:41 UTC
olan2005 wrote:
Iso Anneto wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
Iso Anneto wrote:
Seriously people?
This guy could at ANY time leave the channel. He even knew what was going on (he said he did in to anyway), he could have left, he stayed because he wanted the money, it's his fault he was "tortured", simply because he was greedy. If he had cut his losses or not been greedy, he could've avoided all of this. Pure greed is the cause. And E1 being insane, but mostly greed.



Thats like saying its the coppers fault for being shot , because he choose to be a police officer. The getting scammed is the victim fault. The Bonus room shenanigans is the fault of the scammers taking it too far .


Um, no.
It's similar but completely different, the police(wo)man is obliged to do it, it is his/her job and there are things that matter in the line, the guy lost what? Less than $40 worth of in game assets, as I said earlier, he could have left if he wanted to, he stayed because of pure greed.


OK theoretically i scam you . Take all you isk and assets . Then give you a chance to get them back using the bonus room method . NOW say you have a lot of time and effort put into the game. you are going to comply due to the coercion of holding you entire eve career assets to ransom if you do not . If erotica1 action were legal why did he not use the in-game chat for this . I WILL tell why due to the fact that CCP would ban him for going to far. The coercion element of the bonus room aspect of the scam is what negates any consent given to the scammer by the victim . Still the victim should have been wiser and quit after the initial scam. The scammer should have used moderation and quit while he was ahead , instead of being a narcissistic prick


But he didn't go too far.
And he just used TS because it makes stages 2 and 3 easier since CCP doesn't need to act on anything since they covered their ass in the EULA.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2962 - 2014-03-26 16:03:57 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Can somebody please remind me how many times Sohkar left the Bonus Room....only to return?




And this question would be directed to those who actually listened to the recording in its entirety...not the sheeple who just read the blog and are therefore experts in this situation....

Relevance?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#2963 - 2014-03-26 16:04:01 UTC
Heh heh heh. I see there's a reading comprehension problem working here with all involved. "Right" to do so...a right not established. None of you have an argument pro or con. Why? It doesn't matter what the EULA says, or what CCP allows if it's illegal. It doesn't matter what you agree with or disagree with if it's illegal. It doesn't matter what you WANT, or THINK, or BELIEVE, or HOPE...except during the sentencing phase.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Lucretia DeWinter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2964 - 2014-03-26 16:06:09 UTC
Holy crap this thread is fast...


Anyway,

Crumplecorn wrote:
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:
The progression to external channels to continue the humiliation of this person and the subsequent verbal abuse, racism and threats are relevant as they are performed by members of our community under the auspice of being part of the game.
While I find did find the verbal abuse, racism and threats quite distasteful, they did happen completely outside the game and so I cannot agree with Sohkar being punished for them in EVE.

If we do consider the TS part of the game however, then I would say that ti should be treated the same as someone being ransomed in local. Singing a song to save your ship or whatever is nothing new.


You're right. Giving some poor sap a chance to save his tackeld ship by joining you and singing I'm A Little Teapot is nothing new.

And nothing I take issue with.

Inviting same sap onto your TS and goading them for two hours about it until they snap? Yeah, I'll take issue with that.

I have no issues with Erotica1's in game actions - cunning and ruthless as they are. I actually admire the ingenuity and genius he puts into fleecing people.

Dragging people onto an external server, humiliating them for 2 hours and then publishing it for lols is okay? Really?.

CCP can only act within their control. As their game and their community are essential for this event to have occurred it is IMO up to them to use what control they have to make it known that this level of greifing/emergent gameplay is considered unacceptable.

Either that or they should come out and say "Yay Erotica! Wooooooo! Way to go, that was awesome!" At least we'd know where we stand.


Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
So if Erotica 1 had used Eve Voice instead of TS everything would be jake right?


Yes. Yes it would. Why? Because CCP can fully investigate, correctly attribute blame for any transgressions and administer appropriate sanctions.

Mario Putzo wrote:
http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow

Should we also ban the people behind this? Or is it ok because they didn't use TS3?


No - that's different. That was an in game scam perpetrated by in game means. Congratulations on the big score for them. As above, this is reviewable by CCP as it stays within their sphere of control. Had there been any use of 'N' words, death threats or 'cruel and unusual' humiliation (e.g. for a prolonged time with no material purpose) then I would expect CCP to be able to examine those chat logs and take appropriate action against any involved (which they do.)


For me, this is about how CCP need to codify that there is a standard of conduct (there is one in the EULA/TOS) and that, should external factors beyond their control be used to breach that conduct, then sanctions within their control (bans, reversals etc) can and will be administered.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2965 - 2014-03-26 16:06:11 UTC
Prie Mary wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
So I just went to the library.

A woman shows up, sits next to me, passes out and is snoring really loud.
This is obviously inappropriate behavior, she obviously singled me out, she's obviously done this to other people before, and it's making me crazy.

Should I walk away, and tell one of the librarians, or is it acceptable to go into a ugly racist rant and threaten to gut her?

What does Rippard Teg and his minions think?




Clearly you must steal her wallet, phone or anything she holds dear, then proceed to wake her up and refuse to return the said goods unless she dances, sings, reads every book in the library or strips? Record the entire thing and put it on as much social media as possible.




Well sorta, I mean I'd have to ask for her wallet, and then ask if I can record her, then I suppose I could post it, but I'm afraid almost nobody would watch it unless a well known personality like Rippard advertises it for me.

But back on topic, I'm assuming you agree that walking away and reporting to people in charge for a resolution is more appropriate then going all psyco on her?

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Mario Putzo
#2966 - 2014-03-26 16:06:19 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Can somebody please remind me how many times Sohkar left the Bonus Room....only to return?




And this question would be directed to those who actually listened to the recording in its entirety...not the sheeple who just read the blog and are therefore experts in this situation....

Relevance?


He couldn't have been that emotionally distraught by the event if he kept coming back.
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#2967 - 2014-03-26 16:06:34 UTC
Iso Anneto wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
Iso Anneto wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
Iso Anneto wrote:
Seriously people?
This guy could at ANY time leave the channel. He even knew what was going on (he said he did in to anyway), he could have left, he stayed because he wanted the money, it's his fault he was "tortured", simply because he was greedy. If he had cut his losses or not been greedy, he could've avoided all of this. Pure greed is the cause. And E1 being insane, but mostly greed.



Thats like saying its the coppers fault for being shot , because he choose to be a police officer. The getting scammed is the victim fault. The Bonus room shenanigans is the fault of the scammers taking it too far .


Um, no.
It's similar but completely different, the police(wo)man is obliged to do it, it is his/her job and there are things that matter in the line, the guy lost what? Less than $40 worth of in game assets, as I said earlier, he could have left if he wanted to, he stayed because of pure greed.


OK theoretically i scam you . Take all you isk and assets . Then give you a chance to get them back using the bonus room method . NOW say you have a lot of time and effort put into the game. you are going to comply due to the coercion of holding you entire eve career assets to ransom if you do not . If erotica1 action were legal why did he not use the in-game chat for this . I WILL tell why due to the fact that CCP would ban him for going to far. The coercion element of the bonus room aspect of the scam is what negates any consent given to the scammer by the victim . Still the victim should have been wiser and quit after the initial scam. The scammer should have used moderation and quit while he was ahead , instead of being a narcissistic prick


But he didn't go too far.
And he just used TS because it makes stages 2 and 3 easier since CCP doesn't need to act on anything since they covered their ass in the EULA.


or because if you use in game coms for this part you get your ass handed a ban ? If its so above board why aren't the follow up stages done entirely using the in game channels ?? and don't say because TS is easier thats a cop out............

you know, I know and the community knows why this is done using out of game comms
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2968 - 2014-03-26 16:07:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Can somebody please remind me how many times Sohkar left the Bonus Room....only to return?




And this question would be directed to those who actually listened to the recording in its entirety...not the sheeple who just read the blog and are therefore experts in this situation....

Relevance?


You serious?

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Othran
Route One
#2969 - 2014-03-26 16:08:10 UTC
Having listened to part of it :

1) Does it contravene the EULA - No;

2) Is it borderline harassment - Yes;

3) Is it behaviour you'd tolerate from any of your friends/family whether in a game or not - No;

4) Will it put lots of people off trying Eve - probably not, previous behaviour along the same lines by others did that years ago;

5) Is it something CCP should "deal with"? In this instance yes I think so. EULA or no EULA, you simply don't want people like that in game.
lollerwaffle
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#2970 - 2014-03-26 16:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: lollerwaffle
I'm confused about the term 'cyber bullying'

To me, bullying is REAL LIFE harassment/abuse (either through physical or non-physical means), where the victim does not have the option of walking away.

What does that have to do with being harassed on the internet where all you have to do to 'walk away' is to hit the power button on your computer?

Especially seeing as how the supposed victim chose to continue to subject himself repeatedly to such behaviour, over digital pixels which have no bearing on real life? I could possibly understand it if this happened on social media like Facebook etc., where real identities mean the border between real and virtual worlds becomes slightly blurred. But over a video game, which has absolutely NO bearing on real life?

I don't like something, I turn the TV/Monitor/PC/console off and do something else. Easy.

Some people seem to go to great lengths to find something to be offended about. Weird.

EDIT: PS, all you people condoning violence or comparing this/making silly analogies to real life crimes need to get your priorities sorted.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2971 - 2014-03-26 16:08:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Except if CCP continues to allow this to occur and someone self harms because of it they could be vicariously liable so they can't just ignore it. In some areas what they did is a criminal offence so its hardly a matter of freedom. You don't have freedom to abuse and vilify people. You agree to give up those freedoms in exchange for the rule of law. If you want to live in anarchy perhaps Afghanistan is a better place for you?
I think people like Erotica 1 are pretty thick-skinned, so the kind of abuse and villification he is suffering are unlikely to cause any real harm.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Big Lynx
#2972 - 2014-03-26 16:08:39 UTC
Almost 150pages, time for Big Brother!
olan2005
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2973 - 2014-03-26 16:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: olan2005
Iso Anneto wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
Iso Anneto wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
Iso Anneto wrote:
Seriously people?
This guy could at ANY time leave the channel. He even knew what was going on (he said he did in to anyway), he could have left, he stayed because he wanted the money, it's his fault he was "tortured", simply because he was greedy. If he had cut his losses or not been greedy, he could've avoided all of this. Pure greed is the cause. And E1 being insane, but mostly greed.



Thats like saying its the coppers fault for being shot , because he choose to be a police officer. The getting scammed is the victim fault. The Bonus room shenanigans is the fault of the scammers taking it too far .


Um, no.
It's similar but completely different, the police(wo)man is obliged to do it, it is his/her job and there are things that matter in the line, the guy lost what? Less than $40 worth of in game assets, as I said earlier, he could have left if he wanted to, he stayed because of pure greed.


OK theoretically i scam you . Take all you isk and assets . Then give you a chance to get them back using the bonus room method . NOW say you have a lot of time and effort put into the game. you are going to comply due to the coercion of holding you entire eve career assets to ransom if you do not . If erotica1 action were legal why did he not use the in-game chat for this . I WILL tell why due to the fact that CCP would ban him for going to far. The coercion element of the bonus room aspect of the scam is what negates any consent given to the scammer by the victim . Still the victim should have been wiser and quit after the initial scam. The scammer should have used moderation and quit while he was ahead , instead of being a narcissistic prick


But he didn't go too far.
And he just used TS because it makes stages 2 and 3 easier since CCP doesn't need to act on anything since they covered their ass in the EULA.


If that recording is not going to far, then what is . From your perspective , where is the line between SCAM and outright bullying , humiliation of individuals .

How far should the scammer go after receiving all his victims assets , to reap personal enjoyment out of his victims stupidity

At what point does something go beyond a scam

WERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2974 - 2014-03-26 16:09:33 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
To those of you who support the Bonus Room as a legitimate Eve activity, what is the line an Eve player would have to cross to get you to admit he did something wrong?


An activity can be "wrong" and "a legitimate eve activity" at the same time. Where you draw the line for "wrong" can be anywhere. I personally feel a bit of moral revulsion at the speech impediment thing, and also at the repeated podding for massive SP loss that previous bonus room victims have endured. Up until that point, I can even see the fun in the whole thing. As for what constitutes a legitimate activity, I would say that line (and thus getting into ban-territory) would be...

The usual stuff... racism, threats of violence, inciting the "client" to commit violence or any other criminal activity, repeated, prolonged harassment, the misuse of any obtained personal or contact information, including distributing that information to other players to abuse (obtaining said information is alone normal/ok).

Honestly? I think while the victim is voluntarily in the bonus room, you would have to try very very hard to cross the line. E1 has done so in the past and been reprimanded, and from what I can tell the bonus room no longer includes repeated podding for skillpoint loss or involves uploading images of the victim. Not entirely sure on the former one though.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Iso Anneto
Doomheim
#2975 - 2014-03-26 16:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Iso Anneto
Destitute Tehol wrote:


I don't agree with what E1 did. I have not decided my opinion on what should be done on the matter yet. I am waiting for a CCP response.

EDIT: I would also appreciate it if words aren't put in my mouth. I say what I say there's nothing more behind what I say.


I was just saying because what you said means that there would be no recording, which means the argument of "he didn't consent/ there's no proof he consented at the beginning" would be invalidated.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2976 - 2014-03-26 16:11:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Prie Mary wrote:
Sentamon wrote:
So I just went to the library.

A woman shows up, sits next to me, passes out and is snoring really loud.
This is obviously inappropriate behavior, she obviously singled me out, she's obviously done this to other people before, and it's making me crazy.

Should I walk away, and tell one of the librarians, or is it acceptable to go into a ugly racist rant and threaten to gut her?

What does Rippard Teg and his minions think?




Clearly you must steal her wallet, phone or anything she holds dear, then proceed to wake her up and refuse to return the said goods unless she dances, sings, reads every book in the library or strips? Record the entire thing and put it on as much social media as possible.



Except of course nothing was stolen, nor held ransom.

In your example you simply asked if you could have them and she gave them to you.

Of course, the other difference is that her purse is (presumably) not an imaginary purse... an imaginary purse she doesn't actually own.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2977 - 2014-03-26 16:11:13 UTC
olan2005 wrote:


If that recording is not going to far, then what is . From your perspective , where is the line between SCAM and outright bullying , humiliation of individuals .

How far should the scammer go after receiving all hist victims assets , to reap personal enjoyment out of his victims stupidity

At what point does something go beyond a scam

WERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE




By typing really loud. Also not knowing what you're talking about because you didn't listen to the whole event in it's entirety, just read some blog post and got all :mad:

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2978 - 2014-03-26 16:11:16 UTC
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:
Holy crap this thread is fast...


Anyway,

Crumplecorn wrote:
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:
The progression to external channels to continue the humiliation of this person and the subsequent verbal abuse, racism and threats are relevant as they are performed by members of our community under the auspice of being part of the game.
While I find did find the verbal abuse, racism and threats quite distasteful, they did happen completely outside the game and so I cannot agree with Sohkar being punished for them in EVE.

If we do consider the TS part of the game however, then I would say that ti should be treated the same as someone being ransomed in local. Singing a song to save your ship or whatever is nothing new.


You're right. Giving some poor sap a chance to save his tackeld ship by joining you and singing I'm A Little Teapot is nothing new.

And nothing I take issue with.

Inviting same sap onto your TS and goading them for two hours about it until they snap? Yeah, I'll take issue with that.

I have no issues with Erotica1's in game actions - cunning and ruthless as they are. I actually admire the ingenuity and genius he puts into fleecing people.

Dragging people onto an external server, humiliating them for 2 hours and then publishing it for lols is okay? Really?.

CCP can only act within their control. As their game and their community are essential for this event to have occurred it is IMO up to them to use what control they have to make it known that this level of greifing/emergent gameplay is considered unacceptable.

Either that or they should come out and say "Yay Erotica! Wooooooo! Way to go, that was awesome!" At least we'd know where we stand.


Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
So if Erotica 1 had used Eve Voice instead of TS everything would be jake right?


Yes. Yes it would. Why? Because CCP can fully investigate, correctly attribute blame for any transgressions and administer appropriate sanctions.

Mario Putzo wrote:
http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow

Should we also ban the people behind this? Or is it ok because they didn't use TS3?


No - that's different. That was an in game scam perpetrated by in game means. Congratulations on the big score for them. As above, this is reviewable by CCP as it stays within their sphere of control. Had there been any use of 'N' words, death threats or 'cruel and unusual' humiliation (e.g. for a prolonged time with no material purpose) then I would expect CCP to be able to examine those chat logs and take appropriate action against any involved (which they do.)


For me, this is about how CCP need to codify that there is a standard of conduct (there is one in the EULA/TOS) and that, should external factors beyond their control be used to breach that conduct, then sanctions within their control (bans, reversals etc) can and will be administered.



Thus far, this is one of the best and most measured responses in this thread.

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Mario Putzo
#2979 - 2014-03-26 16:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:

No - that's different. That was an in game scam perpetrated by in game means. Congratulations on the big score for them. As above, this is reviewable by CCP as it stays within their sphere of control. Had there been any use of 'N' words, death threats or 'cruel and unusual' humiliation (e.g. for a prolonged time with no material purpose) then I would expect CCP to be able to examine those chat logs and take appropriate action against any involved (which they do.)


Its not different at all, but hey lets all pretend some more.

Do you think Mittani should still be playing this game? Where do you take the stick and draw a line in the sand?

If Erotica is banned for this, what of the numerous cases before him of people recording situations where people got a rise out of someone else? What about all those "toxic" Soundclouds that have been leaked over the years?

Does the client also get banned for all the threats he made to Erotica 1? Or are we banning on arbitrary opinion of a guy who makes blog articles to get page views?

Have you actually even listened to the exchange?

I mean if you can't be banned for disclosing information about someone at Fan Fest, and telling people to troll the kid until he kills himself. What can you get banned for.
Big Lynx
#2980 - 2014-03-26 16:12:18 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
I have been playing this game for many many years now, and have never really been comfortable with the whole scamming thing. I think it spoils the game and actually drives people away. Scamming as become so prevalent in Eve its over taken the good aspects of it. Look at jita every single post in chat is a scam.

I dont like the fact that goonswarm do this constantly to a point its part of their culture, and sometimes the way they do it is a little creepy and weird and wrong.

But this is a whole new level, and its just not about a scam, its cyber bullying, torture at is very worse. I am sure this is certainly not the first case of this and its happening to others by other eve players.

You can hear from the start where this was going, and Erotica1 sounds really creepy tbh. They carried on for 2 hours, even when they knew the guy was getting upset, this is when you stop. Actually it should of never started.

This is for me the real darkside of eve, and where scamming takes it past gameplay. I have never played or seen a game that allows this to happen, or even breeds that type of person. The very idea of scamming has created these people, and CCP certainly has to take brunt of the blame for this as they endorse this type of behavior, but its gone a a step too far. as stated I am sure there are many Erotica1s lurking about.

This is just not scamming, its parasidic and morally wrong. Personally i would of called the police and given them the recording as people are now getting prosecuted for this type of thing. What gets me most is that there have been a few cases on twitter etc where people have committed suicide because of people like this. What if this guy did?

CCP has a duty just like twitter and others to protect its users.

However being a veteran player of this game, even after the time an investment i have made, every moral fibre in me is twitching. I am now seriously thinking do i want to pay, play or be a part of this game, ccp and its community if this is something that is happening to people. I certainly do not want to be associated with an organisation or game that endorses such actions and game play anymore.



+1