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Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#2181 - 2014-03-26 07:03:48 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
What about burn Jita? Many tens of thousands of people think Goons are ass holes for burn Jita. Should we start banning Goons? What about the "code" people that harass miners. They're plenty dickish and make people rage as hard as anyone else. Ban for them too?

No. Scams are good, ganking is good, non-consentual PvP is good. This was different in purpose and endpoint. There are goons in this thread condemning the conduct, even if they don't call for a ban.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#2182 - 2014-03-26 07:06:16 UTC
Endovio wrote:



That's a valid argument.

It's also a valid argument to suggest that someone... in particular someone who's been scrupulously careful to stay within the rules and inquire with a GM wherever anything is dubious or questionable... should, if punished at all for violating some new proposed rule, be warned first, and punished if found to remain in violation. This has happened before; you'll note that E1 and friends are very careful to stay within the letter of the law, and will be quick to adjust their actions, if officially asked.


This is only fair, and should be exactly like that.

The only thing i may add is that if they do wish to avoid the punishment after the warning, they should not stick to be "careful to stay within the law" but with more discretion.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Foxstar Damaskeenus
why did i join this corp
Not Purple Shoot It.
#2183 - 2014-03-26 07:07:18 UTC
Cha'ka Khan wrote:
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
It's only a video game, no one needs to do any apologising or mental health hospital checking.


Let me tell you something. If you had listened to that audio where the player and his family had lost their minds and began yelling/death threats maybe you would possibly have a different perspective.

It isn't funny, it should have been immediately stopped. Instead it was continued for that sick, disgusting, mother ******'s amusement.

And then it was brought to these forums where we were exposed and outraged by it, without our consent.

If you think it's ok to provoke people to that point than you really need to examine your own values.



he chose to continue to participate..... out of his own greed and desire for virtual content that ultimately is worthless he decided that it was better to become violent. E1s "Bonus Room" is honestly nothing more than a giant social experiment. Pass or Fail... How steady will your greed keep you?

Greed causes people to snap,. not E1 and his band of merry men.


Honestly, I don't think the victim in question was 100% in control of his mental facilities. How could you possibly fall for ISK doubling in the first place and then continue to fall for more scamming in the first place. The audio Er1 didn't seem convincing to me at all.

What it seemed like was a complete piece of trash using CCP's game to antagonize someone to the point of engagement, do actual harm to the person and then put it on the internet for more humiliation.

Don't get me wrong, had it been me that fell for this scam I would have been 100% in agreement for you. But alas I wouldn't have and I wouldn't have got on comms with that **********.

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2184 - 2014-03-26 07:11:19 UTC
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:


What it seemed like was a complete piece of trash using CCP's game to antagonize someone to the point of engagement, do actual harm to the person and then put it on the internet for more humiliation.



What actual harm? Is taking a hit to the old pride considered actual harm now? Losing your space pixels? Being laughed at? Singing children's songs?

What "actual harm"?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#2185 - 2014-03-26 07:12:31 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
Endovior wrote:
That's a valid argument.

It's also a valid argument to suggest that someone... in particular someone who's been scrupulously careful to stay within the rules and inquire with a GM wherever anything is dubious or questionable... should, if punished at all for violating some new proposed rule, be warned first, and punished if found to remain in violation. This has happened before; you'll note that E1 and friends are very careful to stay within the letter of the law, and will be quick to adjust their actions, if officially asked.


This is only fair, and should be exactly like that.

The only thing i may add is that if they do wish to avoid the punishment after the warning, they should not stick to be "careful to stay within the law" but with more discretion.


Disagree completely. Something which is 'almost illegal' is still 'not actually illegal', and the whole point of inquiring into the specific rules is to draw a line between what is acceptable and what is not. If that line is in the wrong place, it can be moved... but it's not fair to say 'the line is drawn here... and don't go anywhere near it!'
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#2186 - 2014-03-26 07:13:23 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
arabella blood wrote:

Imo theres no need for any line. It is CCP policy to examin the cases one by one and deciding. Setting up a rule here is totally not needed, from both sides of the argument.

CCP would never have noticed this particular incident if a few people didn't make a fuss on the forums.

So what you're saying is: each time someone yells real loud on the forums, the target should be "audited" for a ban? Boy, it sure would suck to be a high-profile figure with a lot of enemies on the eve of election day. Not that that's happening here of course. Roll


Did i say that? Did i write that? Whats with the enterpetation of my exact words was not clear? Jee.

Btw, you know there are other means of getting CCPs attention to edge cases? One of them is called ticket, there others too :)


Btw2, same thing happend during SOMERgate. It was all quiet and nice until...

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Wulfy Johnson
NorCorp Security
#2187 - 2014-03-26 07:13:58 UTC
Maybe they are lucky next time and find that mentally challenged guy so heavy depressive that he does something bad to himself, or even worse, push that one psychopat over the edge taking armes to schools..

oh wait, aint that the goal of such exsersises?

Is the legimity of this still a debatte?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2188 - 2014-03-26 07:14:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Does "Burn Jita" involve humiliating people outside the game? No it doesn't. Burn Jita is an in-game event involving people blowing up spaceships and calling each other names within the context of the game environment. That's perfectly acceptable.




Yep, it does. Killboards, and all that. Including rewards for various achievements during the event.

Hell, I just realized that you're functionally arguing that sharing killmails is griefing.


How does posting killmails constitute publicly humiliating people?

The point at which you point and laugh at the "fail fit" might step over that line, but not to anywhere near the same degree as posting compromising photos or recordings of someone having an emotional breakdown.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#2189 - 2014-03-26 07:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
.


(none really. please ignore)
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#2190 - 2014-03-26 07:18:25 UTC
Endovior wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
Endovior wrote:
That's a valid argument.

It's also a valid argument to suggest that someone... in particular someone who's been scrupulously careful to stay within the rules and inquire with a GM wherever anything is dubious or questionable... should, if punished at all for violating some new proposed rule, be warned first, and punished if found to remain in violation. This has happened before; you'll note that E1 and friends are very careful to stay within the letter of the law, and will be quick to adjust their actions, if officially asked.


This is only fair, and should be exactly like that.

The only thing i may add is that if they do wish to avoid the punishment after the warning, they should not stick to be "careful to stay within the law" but with more discretion.


Disagree completely. Something which is 'almost illegal' is still 'not actually illegal', and the whole point of inquiring into the specific rules is to draw a line between what is acceptable and what is not. If that line is in the wrong place, it can be moved... but it's not fair to say 'the line is drawn here... and don't go anywhere near it!'



If there was such a clear line, edge cases would not exist. Its a problem, a IRL problem as well - thats why we have judges and not only "sentence delivereres".
It is not a simple thing at all. And there are many doctorines, and many ideas revolving the issue.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2191 - 2014-03-26 07:19:52 UTC
Wulfy Johnson wrote:
Maybe they are lucky next time and find that mentally challenged guy so heavy depressive that he does something bad to himself, or even worse, push that one psychopat over the edge taking armes to schools..

oh wait, aint that the goal of such exsersises?

Is the legimity of this still a debatte?


Right, so a guy loses in a video game and goes kills a school full of kids because he's mad at someone he doesn't know. Makes sense.

Oh god.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2192 - 2014-03-26 07:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Mara Rinn wrote:
Does "Burn Jita" involve humiliating people outside the game?
....
They're not taking people to their own TS server to publicly humiliate them away from the domain of the EULA and TOS.
....
Did you get them to read Wikipedia entries out loud to mock pronunciation errors, write essays about how wonderful you are, post photos of themselves naked with "Erotica 1 for CSM" signs, and ridicule them while they were doing all this? Did you change the rules about the ransom while you had them on TS?

+1 for honouring the ransom, BTW.

Yes, Erotica 1's actions are reprehensible. Then again, during the Fountain War test found their services taken down by a DDOS of mysterious origin. This only happened when a certain group of alliances were in the process of moving the bulk of their initial attack force, a vulnerable phase in their logistical operation. Pure coincidence of course.

And nobody's TS server has ever come under DDOS during an actual sov fight. Nope, never. Such actions would be a real world attack, on real world assets that were paid for with real money. And no one's ever done that. Roll

Ah, but going back to reprehensible actions...yes, Erotica 1's cronies are a bunch of douches, and Erotica 1 is their douche king. I don't think anyone denies that. But these particular douches have been exceedingly careful to follow the EULA and the TOS.

CCP sets a rule, they follow it. So we come back, full circle, to banning someone for being a douche. IDK, that just doesn't sit well with me.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2193 - 2014-03-26 07:21:53 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
If there was such a clear line, edge cases would not exist. Its a problem, a IRL problem as well - thats why we have judges and not only "sentence delivereres".
It is not a simple thing at all. And there are many doctorines, and many ideas revolving the issue.

Defense: He could have switched off his computer at any point.
Judge: Case dismissed.

Oh god.
Seraph d'Etoiles
Bitter Vets With Less Time
#2194 - 2014-03-26 07:23:38 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Seraph d'Etoiles wrote:


One sentence for your non-optimal selected evolutionary phenotype: You think I responed to my own posts on accident with the same character.

Carry on being a virginal man child. I hear that really does wonders for surviving evolutionary wise.


And I think that you think you're actually getting an angry reaction out of me. And you seem to be enjoying it, or you would have stopped by now. But you're mistaken, in any case. I was making observations, while you are flinging insults like a monkey flings its poop. It would help your case more if you didn't do something, then claim not to, as if it was an indication of someone else's error. It would help your case more if you, like so many highsec pubbies, were capable of taking responsibility for yourself. But you're not, so I don't believe you did that posting with the same character intentionally, but even if it was intentional, your persistent wilful ignorance of autism and evolution still make you a moron, and your continued assumptions about me confirm it, as does your continued discrimination.

But don't worry, one day you'll have an autistic child and be forced to eat your words, cuz you're 'obviously' not a virgin yourself since you consider not being one a badge of honour. Am I right? While your assumption about me is incorrect, however, I sure do wish I was still a virgin. It would have saved me a fair deal of complications throughout the last decade of my life.

I'm pretty sure though that you'll never have children. The first people to reach for the "you must be a virgin" line as if it's a bad thing are just jealous virgins themselves, and think that's a bad thing for them. Just like a liar always expects other people to be liars.

One last word of advice. If you wish to continue being stupid, ignore this TED discussion.

http://www.ted.com/conversations/11849/is_autism_or_some_types_of_au.html


0 respect for anyone that mentions a ted talk. LOL.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#2195 - 2014-03-26 07:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Riot Girl wrote:
Right, so a guy loses in a video game and goes kills a school full of kids because he's mad at someone he doesn't know. Makes sense.


Even if something like this did happen (and I hope that it never does), this isn't the fault of the people he was opposing in the video game.

It's his personal responsibility. No one else's. Not even those immediately around him who could have possibly seen a pattern of behaviour and intervened.

Personal responsibility seems to be an out of date concept. I hope it comes back into fashion someday.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#2196 - 2014-03-26 07:25:19 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
Endovior wrote:
Disagree completely. Something which is 'almost illegal' is still 'not actually illegal', and the whole point of inquiring into the specific rules is to draw a line between what is acceptable and what is not. If that line is in the wrong place, it can be moved... but it's not fair to say 'the line is drawn here... and don't go anywhere near it!'



If there was such a clear line, edge cases would not exist. Its a problem, a IRL problem as well - thats why we have judges and not only "sentence delivereres".
It is not a simple thing at all. And there are many doctorines, and many ideas revolving the issue.


I'm not saying that grey areas don't exist. I'm saying that that's what the warning and line-drawing is for. Part of the point is that, if/when the rules change, you are right to clarify the rules, and get a specific indication that any potentially borderline thing you're doing is okay... and then you do that. Otherwise, you have a situation where the 'law' is actually nebulous and murky, and you can be randomly punished for anything in particular at the whim of the judge. That's the importance of knowing what is and is not illegal, and why ambiguous laws are bad.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#2197 - 2014-03-26 07:26:34 UTC
My 5 cents.
That´s going too far. Psychical harassing is not funny.
You never know who the player you harass is. It may be a 14 year old who can get depressions because of that or someone with a real intellectual disability (e.g. trysomy 21) and harass such people is completely asocial.
Laughing about the victims is this case is really no mature behaviour. You can never know who the real human being in eve may be and what for handicaps he may have in real live.
What happens if they harass a 16 year old with borderline syndrome that way and he commits suicide?
In my opionion erotica and friends deserve some holidays in a russian gulag.
Sorry but eve is a game and behaviour like that is absolutely unacceptable in real life. Why should it be acceptable in a game, then?

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.
Foxstar Damaskeenus
why did i join this corp
Not Purple Shoot It.
#2198 - 2014-03-26 07:27:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:


What it seemed like was a complete piece of trash using CCP's game to antagonize someone to the point of engagement, do actual harm to the person and then put it on the internet for more humiliation.



What actual harm? Is taking a hit to the old pride considered actual harm now? Losing your space pixels? Being laughed at? Singing children's songs?

What "actual harm"?


He is taking it out of the game. It reminds me of mittanigate a bit. I think you have to agree that no sane person would fall for isk doubling services multiple times.

Then again this whole thing could just be an elaborate prank.

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#2199 - 2014-03-26 07:27:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
What about burn Jita? Many tens of thousands of people think Goons are ass holes for burn Jita. Should we start banning Goons?


Does "Burn Jita" involve humiliating people outside the game? No it doesn't. Burn Jita is an in-game event involving people blowing up spaceships and calling each other names within the context of the game environment. That's perfectly acceptable.

PotatoOverdose wrote:
What about the "code" people that harass miners. They're plenty dickish and make people rage as hard as anyone else. Ban for them too?


They gank people, blow up spaceships, act like sadistic religious zealots in-game, and post about their accomplishments on their web site. They're not taking people to their own TS server to publicly humiliate them away from the domain of the EULA and TOS. Miner bumping is perfectly legitimate. I don't buy their politics and religion, and I don't like bumping as a mechanic in general, but they're actually playing the game even if they are being jerks about it. They're a bunch of jerks, but they're keeping their jerk attitude strictly in game for the most part.

I have yet to hear about Miner Bumping requesting people send in humiliating photos. The worst of their transgressions is worshipping Erotica 1 like a god: they celebrate the bonus room in question through the "Jetliner Bumping" series of posts. [voiceover=Derryn Hinch]Shame, New Order, shame![/voiceover]

PotatoOverdose wrote:
I was once on a fleet, a birthday fleet for a friend. We were in lowsec, we tackled a venture. Told the pilot he could either sing happy birthday on comms to the birthday dude, or get his ship popped. He sung the song in comms, we let him go. Should we be banned too?


Did you get them to read Wikipedia entries out loud to mock pronunciation errors, write essays about how wonderful you are, post photos of themselves naked with "Erotica 1 for CSM" signs, and ridicule them while they were doing all this? Did you change the rules about the ransom while you had them on TS?

+1 for honouring the ransom, BTW.


I heard about mayo photos, nazi songs and this. But still didnt hear about naked photos. Is it true?

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2200 - 2014-03-26 07:28:51 UTC
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Foxstar Damaskeenus wrote:


What it seemed like was a complete piece of trash using CCP's game to antagonize someone to the point of engagement, do actual harm to the person and then put it on the internet for more humiliation.



What actual harm? Is taking a hit to the old pride considered actual harm now? Losing your space pixels? Being laughed at? Singing children's songs?

What "actual harm"?


He is taking it out of the game. It reminds me of mittanigate a bit. I think you have to agree that no sane person would fall for isk doubling services multiple times.

Then again this whole thing could just be an elaborate prank.


So, no "actual harm" then. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Oh, and as for the "no sane person", I have personally had my isk doubled by Erotica1 twice. It's actually a legit service, if you can read the rules correctly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.