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Why dont we use the cloud?
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Serene Repose
#21 - 2014-03-05 17:03:59 UTC
Oh. The Cloud. It would make us feel like we've all been invited to the cool kid's table.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2014-03-05 17:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
your saying Amazon takes 100 seconds to make a webpage? wtf? i dont even get what ur trying to say anymore
Try reading, preferably without skipping words. Or entire questions.

Yes, between waiting for the page to load, the user looking through the page and finding the information they need, and general net congestion, Amazon can survive while delivering pages at .01 Hz.

What is it you think that “the cloud” will be able to do for us?

thats in the OP, maybe u should read urself Roll


That is evasion.

Your OP does not say anything about what it is you think cloud services can do. You sound like those business idiots that come to my office saying we need the cloud. At which point I sigh and try to explain to them with crayons what a cloud service actually is.

EDIT: However after reading some of your other threads and post. I do understand why you said what you did.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2014-03-05 17:13:02 UTC
so its easier to "LOL UR DUMB" than explain why someone is wrong, yes? maybe u could get "crayons" and explain why thousand of computers working together to spread work and reduce ddos is wrong?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#24 - 2014-03-05 17:13:51 UTC
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
thats in the OP, maybe u should read urself Roll

No, it really isn't.

The OP talks about thwarting DDOSes and adding systems, one of which isn't possible and the other of which is unnecessary. There is nothing in the about how (and why) you think “the cloud” will in any way help with these things.

Quote:
than explain why someone is wrong, yes?
This has already been done. You keep evading it.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-03-05 17:20:24 UTC
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
amazon doesnt run at a 1 hz rate either
…because it's not a real-time service, so it can survive running at .01 Hz.

You're still avoiding the question, by the way.

[Y]ou['re] saying Amazon takes 100 seconds to make a webpage? wtf? [I] don[']t even get what [you're] trying to say anymore[.]

Hes saying it only has to load a page once every hundred seconds or so. (I assume this number is actually closer to 10-20) Eve has to both send and receive data from each client every second while that client's ship is in space.

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Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2014-03-05 17:22:13 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
amazon doesnt run at a 1 hz rate either
…because it's not a real-time service, so it can survive running at .01 Hz.

You're still avoiding the question, by the way.

[Y]ou['re] saying Amazon takes 100 seconds to make a webpage? wtf? [I] don[']t even get what [you're] trying to say anymore[.]

Hes saying it only has to load a page once every hundred seconds or so. (I assume this number is actually closer to 10-20) Eve has to both send and receive data from each client every second while that client's ship is in space.

http://aws.typepad.com/aws/2012/04/amazon-s3-905-billion-objects-and-650000-requestssecond.html

650000 per second is not 1 every 10-20 secs and not .01 hz
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-03-05 17:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
so its easier to "LOL UR DUMB" than explain why someone is wrong, yes? maybe u could get "crayons" and explain why thousand of computers working together to spread work and reduce ddos is wrong?


Your assumption that cloud is the answer is flawed. Based on one thing... The latency between the distributed services would cause to much latency for a service like EVE that requires real-time processing.

Remember... there is the Internet/mpls or whatever link between services running your cloud solution. You do not want any of that in a system that is dependant on real-time processing.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2014-03-05 17:23:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
650000 per second is not 1 every 10-20 secs and not .01 hz

Now divide it by the number of users. Also, S3 is not a single service, nor does it serve web pages.
Commander Spurty
#29 - 2014-03-05 17:26:50 UTC
Good grief.

Many have already 'dope slapped' the Op so I'll exit before "WALL OF TEXT" spews from my fingers explaining things.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-03-05 17:27:23 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
so its easier to "LOL UR DUMB" than explain why someone is wrong, yes? maybe u could get "crayons" and explain why thousand of computers working together to spread work and reduce ddos is wrong?


Your assumption that cloud is the answer is flawed. Based on one thing... The latency between the distributed services would cause to much latency for a service like EVE that requires real-time processing.

i dont think so. if a cloud computer is handleing every place there are ships then the latency only hapens on warps and jumps that are alredy 'slow' enough to hide any wait with async query
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#31 - 2014-03-05 17:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
Its what the cloud is for extendible and lots of computing power to adapt to both low and high load and THWART DDOSers! as much as we joke about 'the hamsters' its wrong to not use 21st centry tech to solve problems for thousand of players? just look at the forums and u can see theres a problem.
things like Jita might be solve by getting bigger computers but what of multiple fleet battles and MORE SYSTEMS? cloud is the future but it seems the ignored by ccp. why?


You're a bit late, EvE already uses 'The Cloud' It's just a marketing word for *Internet servers* Guess what eve runs on? Yes! Inetrnet Servers! Servers connected to the internet!

Forcing the eve software to go through an additional layer of 'servers' (The Cloud you're so fond of) would only make it more vulnerable to DDOS attacks.


Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
i dont think so. if a cloud computer is handleing every place there are ships then the latency only hapens on warps and jumps that are alredy 'slow' enough to hide any wait with async query

Thanks for proving my point, what you describe is what the Eve servers are doing this very moment, they are the cloud/internet

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-03-05 17:28:00 UTC
Does the OP not realize that the cloud is just computers just like the current server structure?

Does the OP think the cloud is some magical internet entity?

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-03-05 17:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
so its easier to "LOL UR DUMB" than explain why someone is wrong, yes? maybe u could get "crayons" and explain why thousand of computers working together to spread work and reduce ddos is wrong?


Your assumption that cloud is the answer is flawed. Based on one thing... The latency between the distributed services would cause to much latency for a service like EVE that requires real-time processing.

i dont think so. if a cloud computer is handleing every place there are ships then the latency only hapens on warps and jumps that are alredy 'slow' enough to hide any wait with async query


haha...

Cloud is not a computer. I sure as hell hope you are not in IT.

In it's simplest of form... Cloud just means sharing of resources. I would suggest you do a search on the forums on what the hardware of EVE actually is.

I think you would quickly understand why your cloud service would not work.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2014-03-05 17:31:02 UTC
Jandice Ymladris wrote:

Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
i dont think so. if a cloud computer is handleing every place there are ships then the latency only hapens on warps and jumps that are alredy 'slow' enough to hide any wait with async query

Thanks for proving my point, what you describe is what the Eve servers are doing this very moment, they are the cloud/internet

no right now they are by system only and not really because a lot of systems are on the same 'nodes'
there is also bottleneck in a bunch of places which is y i think ccp is so ddos vulnerable. use cloud -> eliminate bottleneck -> profit
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#35 - 2014-03-05 17:31:38 UTC
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
so its easier to "LOL UR DUMB" than explain why someone is wrong, yes? maybe u could get "crayons" and explain why thousand of computers working together to spread work and reduce ddos is wrong?
I've already explained this. Here's a TL;DR though:
- Game server would need considerably more power than a web server
- Authentication servers would still be vulnerable
- EVE is single threaded, so even if they wanted to spend millions of extra hardware, it's impossible to spread the load.

Now it's your turn. Explain to me how they would put eve on "the cloud" and how that would resolve the current situation. Just a hint, saying "amazon does it" isn't an explanation. That's like saying you can get milk out of a rock by saying "that cow is in the same field and you can get milk out of that, so this rock must be milkable".

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Hes saying it only has to load a page once every hundred seconds or so. (I assume this number is actually closer to 10-20) Eve has to both send and receive data from each client every second while that client's ship is in space.
Actually, he's saying that if the server were put to the position that a request took 100 seconds to respond, while inconvenient, it could still function. A game couldn't reasonably do that, and it certainly wouldn't be able to do that as well as keeping the flow of data active.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#36 - 2014-03-05 17:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: BoBoZoBo
Does the OP know that technically, the entire EVE construct is already a part of the cloud... know to many by it's original name, the Internet.

Maybe the OP Means we should use dropbox as part of the eve nexus.

Mabye the OP is trolling everyone.

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2014-03-05 17:33:46 UTC
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
there is also bottleneck in a bunch of places which is y i think ccp is so ddos vulnerable. use cloud -> eliminate bottleneck -> profit

…and how do imagine that it would do that? Also, what bottlenecks do you believe exist that would (or could) be relieved in this way?
Jandice Ymladris
Aurora Arcology
#38 - 2014-03-05 17:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Jandice Ymladris
Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
Jandice Ymladris wrote:

Aih-Li Tahn wrote:
i dont think so. if a cloud computer is handleing every place there are ships then the latency only hapens on warps and jumps that are alredy 'slow' enough to hide any wait with async query

Thanks for proving my point, what you describe is what the Eve servers are doing this very moment, they are the cloud/internet

no right now they are by system only and not really because a lot of systems are on the same 'nodes'
there is also bottleneck in a bunch of places which is y i think ccp is so ddos vulnerable. use cloud -> eliminate bottleneck -> profit

Wich would do the very same to what they do now. the cloud is servers: eve runs on servers, ergo no change on DDOS resilience/vulnerability. Systems stay the way they are, bottlenecks remain where they are. There exists no server powerful enough to run eve as a whole. Hell Jita server is about the most advanced server you can find in commercial use. No cloudserver would come close to that. So using the cloud would actually damage the services offered in Jita (and Amarr, which also has a server for tiself)

Providing a new home for refugees in the Aurora Arcology
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#39 - 2014-03-05 17:34:15 UTC
Kristalll wrote:
Does the OP not realize that the cloud is just computers just like the current server structure?

Does the OP think the cloud is some magical internet entity?
I'm pretty sure when he is saying "use the cloud", what he really means is "distribute it over more hardware", I just don't think he realises that is what he means, since he has no idea what he's talking about.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Aih-Li Tahn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-03-05 17:39:02 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kristalll wrote:
Does the OP not realize that the cloud is just computers just like the current server structure?

Does the OP think the cloud is some magical internet entity?
I'm pretty sure when he is saying "use the cloud", what he really means is "distribute it over more hardware", I just don't think he realises that is what he means, since he has no idea what he's talking about.

that is only sort of what im saying. right now can eve dynamic start servers and instances to manage load and lots of stuff? no!! ccp is limiting by the PHYSICAL SERVERS THEY HAVE! i am understanding and i know that eve is distributed on 'internet servers' (do u guys think im stupid?) but the diff is the curent model is like hiring 3 people to do tech support and their overwelmed sometimes, vs out-sourcing to a tech support company to not get overwelmed because they have 'standby backup'!