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My Sandbox is Becoming a Themepark

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#461 - 2014-03-10 22:58:57 UTC
"Orca ship swapping" is a nerf to highsec? That's one of the funniest things I've heard in a while.

And as for Incursions, they aren't "hard" in any real way. They are what other MMOs refer to as, a "gear check". They are expensive to startup, certainly, they require specific fittings, sure.

But they aren't "hard". They're still just shooting red crosses.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#462 - 2014-03-10 23:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: hellokittyonline
Also regarding the (extremely off-topic) nullsec vs highsec discussion. Nullsec makes more isk, but highsec is as close to riskless as one can get... so how do you reward infinitely higher risk?

either
Infinitely higher reward for nullsec
or
Infinitely lower reward for highsec

EDIT: or
Infinitely higher risk in highsec
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#463 - 2014-03-10 23:26:53 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
Also regarding the (extremely off-topic) nullsec vs highsec discussion. Nullsec makes more isk, but highsec is as close to riskless as one can get... so how do you reward infinitely higher risk?

either
Infinitely higher reward for nullsec
or
Infinitely lower reward for highsec

EDIT: or
Infinitely higher risk in highsec


Nevermind the fact that by focusing on isk, he is dishonestly trying to steer the conversation away from the bottomless LP fountain of highsec. Because he knows that right now, LP payouts are indefensible.

Yes, LP is an isk sink across the board. But in terms of personal income, LP is what makes the biggest impact on this discussion.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#464 - 2014-03-10 23:32:30 UTC
shhhh how is he supposed to stay blissfully ignorant if you keep spilling the beans?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2014-03-10 23:44:42 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
Also regarding the (extremely off-topic) nullsec vs highsec discussion. Nullsec makes more isk, but highsec is as close to riskless as one can get... so how do you reward infinitely higher risk?

either
Infinitely higher reward for nullsec
or
Infinitely lower reward for highsec

EDIT: or
Infinitely higher risk in highsec


Do you mean the whole of hisec or just certain elements (such as missions). If you mean missions I would agree that they need a complete overhaul, make them random, make them surprise players, introduce real risk into the whole mission area. Anything that can be scripted into something like eve-survival or simply walked over by following a specific doctrine of bring x ship with y fitting needs an overhaul.

If you are referring to S&I it takes effort and time to generate profit from this and I feel the balance is about right here.

As for the risk in hisec I feel this is also about right...if you try to haul anything valuable you had better be prepared to defend it as you will likely be ganked. The whole ganking side of things puts a natural limit on how much a character can make. Increased profit relies upon moving more/higher isk density goods and ganking limits this without bringing friends of one form or another.

i can agree with some points but not those about CCP changes making life harder for someone trying to drag people into idiocy. The PvP community like to tell the PvE folks they need to adapt to survive. Surely this works both ways?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#466 - 2014-03-10 23:51:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Nevermind the fact that by focusing on isk, he is dishonestly trying to steer the conversation away from the bottomless LP fountain of highsec. Because he knows that right now, LP payouts are indefensible.

Yes, LP is an isk sink across the board. But in terms of personal income, LP is what makes the biggest impact on this discussion.

Been there, done the maths, even including LP averages Nullsec still wins.
And since loot in Null Sec is the big money, not the bounties and I didn't even touch onto loot in the Null Sec maths.... Yea, your argument quite simply falls flat on it's face.
You have provided no figures, faulty premise, and terrible conjecture. Even Baltec at least provided some real figures.

Quite simply, none of the stuff you are talking about is turning EVE into a Theme park, and your proposed changes would utterly kill the game.
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#467 - 2014-03-11 00:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: hellokittyonline
Thank you for the coherent post Corraidhin Farsaidh. CCP hasn't made it harder for me at all. The only real change is that what I do is much less accessible to new players (by being more expensive). I also feel that a few of the changes made avoiding risk in high sec much easier (in the wrong way IE: click safety and forget).

I do not mind more transparent mechanics, I do mind repeated pointed attempts at all-but-removing one form of play while simultaneously over-buffing-the-**** out of it's counterplay.

I also feel the need to make note that some of the baiters I used to fly with now simply suicide gank mission runners instead of baiting. Is that more fun for the mission runner? Is it more immersive to be simply 1-shot? It's certainly not likely that a new PvPer is going to have enough resources to field endless tornados (and accounts).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#468 - 2014-03-11 00:47:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Nevermind the fact that by focusing on isk, he is dishonestly trying to steer the conversation away from the bottomless LP fountain of highsec. Because he knows that right now, LP payouts are indefensible.

Yes, LP is an isk sink across the board. But in terms of personal income, LP is what makes the biggest impact on this discussion.

Been there, done the maths, even including LP averages Nullsec still wins.
And since loot in Null Sec is the big money, not the bounties and I didn't even touch onto loot in the Null Sec maths.... Yea, your argument quite simply falls flat on it's face.
You have provided no figures, faulty premise, and terrible conjecture. Even Baltec at least provided some real figures.

Quite simply, none of the stuff you are talking about is turning EVE into a Theme park, and your proposed changes would utterly kill the game.


Every time anyone ever asks you to provide these supposed numbers, you dissemble and ultimately fail to provide them.

I have no choice but to conclude you're just spouting off to try and defend your golden goose.

"My proposed changes"? Do you even know what they are? My only proposed change was that dec dodging be eliminated and harshly punished.

Basically everything in your post is wrong.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#469 - 2014-03-11 08:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
hellokittyonline wrote:
POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS:

1. NPCs need to be DIFFICULT. Make the NPCs fight like a seasoned PvPer would. Neuts, scrams, webs, transversal, and the utilization of range control. These NPCs should only target the aggressors and they should encourage your average carebear to actually learn how combat works..

I'm thinking I want NPC's to be strong enough and smart enough to take out a frigate in a level 4 mission....

Quote:
2. Remove bounties. Rewards should 100% be in the form of a tangible item in the game that one can trade to another player for that players isk (or even, god-forbid, STEAL). Bounties inflate currency and line the lazy-mans pocket as no processing is required to get the value out of their time.

Removing bounties is not good with me... I want NPC bounty hunters to have smart enough AI to come after players for their bounties.... oh you mean rat bounties. well, I want rats that are as smart as players so all bounties should always apply.

Quote:
3. Incentivize risk-taking. Whether it be a risky market endeavor or a trip to low-sec for those "o so juicy ores" there needs to be incentives that involve risking an engagement with another player for our lovely sandbox to remain as such. Furthermore, the rewards for said endeavors need to fall in line with the risk involved.

Sorry but the game already does this, perhaps not as steeply or as viciously as you would like but...where to move that line is always being debated.

Quote:
4. Remove safety nets. The green safety, gate guns in low sec, warp core stabs on ships already small enough to escape almost anything, all need to go. The idea should be to incentivize knowledge of game mechanics, and player interaction, not solo-farming.

Isn't part of the knowledge of the game knowing how to use the very named mechanics here you want to remove? Tell me why this idea isn't just a poor pirate trying to make his job easier by crying, "nerf".

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#470 - 2014-03-11 09:12:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Every time anyone ever asks you to provide these supposed numbers, you dissemble and ultimately fail to provide them.

You mean except the time I did, complete with the full process I went through including the method to generate the amount of LP earned, and you tried to pretend it was wrong just because it came out with null earning more so therefore it 'had' to be wrong.

I just don't feel like dumping several pages of maths into a forum post every time this comes up and I imagine most people don't feel like reading it every time either, but I know you read it, or you claimed to have read it anyway.

And when you consider I was addressing gross income levels in my maths, and that null has 4-5 times fewer people, that means that null was earning something like 5-6 times the per capita income. So even if my maths was wrong by a factor of 2 (Which would be huge given the margins I was working with so I doubt it was out that much as a gross figure) then Null still earns more per capita, though possibly marginally less as a gross product.

Quite simply, you and the bunch of people you constantly rally in support vastly over quote High sec income.

Of course, this is all based on the figures from 2013 Fanfest. If 2014 Fanfest shows a massive change in these figures attributable to anything specific showing high sec is earning vast amounts more then I'll side with the maths on that imbalance. But considering I've posted the most in depth analysis of gross income from Null/WH/High/Incursions that I've seen anyone bother to on these forums, unless your prepared to match with a real data analysis based off CCP released figures rather than 'Our database says' you really don't have a leg to stand on, just a corner soap box crying doom.
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#471 - 2014-03-11 15:36:11 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:

I'm thinking I want NPC's to be strong enough and smart enough to take out a frigate in a level 4 mission....

bounty hunters to have smart enough AI to come after players for their bounties.... oh you mean rat bounties. well, I want rats that are as smart as players so all bounties should always apply.

Sorry but the game already does this, perhaps not as steeply or as viciously as you would like but...where to move that line is always being debated.

Isn't part of the knowledge of the game knowing how to use the very named mechanics here you want to remove? Tell me why this idea isn't just a poor pirate trying to make his job easier by crying, "nerf".


1. Sure, but they obviously shouldn't target a ship that isn't aggressing them (especially not ALL of them, while the MR gets to sit there and pewpew away while his mission gets tanked for him). Also your spill about "bounty hunters" shows how little you know about the game.

2. It does to a degree, the main problem is there are too many rewards for a few of the riskless professions (lvl 4 missions and incursions).

4. 200bil destroyed 20bil lost. The only thing that CCP is nerfing is the ability for new players to get in on the fun. High-sec PvP combat should consist of more than just suicide ganking (and believe me this is in both of our best interests).

Your post is pretty stereotypical of a clueless carebear. Next time you should try reading through the thread and posting something constructive. Also if high-sec is SO risky then how come you know nothing about aggro mechanics? Bounty Hunters... LOL
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#472 - 2014-03-11 15:40:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Every time anyone ever asks you to provide these supposed numbers, you dissemble and ultimately fail to provide them.

You mean except the time I did, complete with the full process I went through including the method to generate the amount of LP earned, and you tried to pretend it was wrong just because it came out with null earning more so therefore it 'had' to be wrong.

I just don't feel like dumping several pages of maths into a forum post every time this comes up and I imagine most people don't feel like reading it every time either, but I know you read it, or you claimed to have read it anyway.

And when you consider I was addressing gross income levels in my maths, and that null has 4-5 times fewer people, that means that null was earning something like 5-6 times the per capita income. So even if my maths was wrong by a factor of 2 (Which would be huge given the margins I was working with so I doubt it was out that much as a gross figure) then Null still earns more per capita, though possibly marginally less as a gross product.

Quite simply, you and the bunch of people you constantly rally in support vastly over quote High sec income.

Of course, this is all based on the figures from 2013 Fanfest. If 2014 Fanfest shows a massive change in these figures attributable to anything specific showing high sec is earning vast amounts more then I'll side with the maths on that imbalance. But considering I've posted the most in depth analysis of gross income from Null/WH/High/Incursions that I've seen anyone bother to on these forums, unless your prepared to match with a real data analysis based off CCP released figures rather than 'Our database says' you really don't have a leg to stand on, just a corner soap box crying doom.


It actually doesn't matter how much isk null makes if you can make enough isk in high-sec without having to prepare, or risk anything. You also GREATLY underestimate the amount of isk Null-Sec players have to spend on things other than their PvE boat, compared to a High-Sec mission runner who buys a 200mil battleship once and then farms for all of eternity.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#473 - 2014-03-11 15:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
hellokittyonline wrote:

It actually doesn't matter how much isk null makes if you can make enough isk in high-sec without having to prepare, or risk anything. You also GREATLY underestimate the amount of isk Null-Sec players have to spend on things other than their PvE boat, compared to a High-Sec mission runner who buys a 200mil battleship once and then farms for all of eternity.


That is just one aspect of hisec though and I agree completely that missions should be made harder with more risk. Preferably they should be randomized with much better PvP like AI for at least the boss ships.

Industry in hisec is more work intensive to make real profits and to make real money you need to utilize losec and nullsec components either by gathering them yourself or buying them which creates the demand.

This is why I promote better and more difficult PvE rather than changing the current hisec dynamic. I would really like missions to require a much more PvP like fit. I also believe this would be more likely to help retain new players as long as the difficulty is set right alongside giving them a much better grounding in what to expect from other players.
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#474 - 2014-03-11 16:14:53 UTC
I agree Corraidhin, and also do not have a problem with industry at all as you are utilizing game knowledge to make your isk while also taking notable risk.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#475 - 2014-03-11 20:43:12 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:

2. It does to a degree, the main problem is there are too many rewards for a few of the riskless professions (lvl 4 missions and incursions).

4. 200bil destroyed 20bil lost. The only thing that CCP is nerfing is the ability for new players to get in on the fun. High-sec PvP combat should consist of more than just suicide ganking (and believe me this is in both of our best interests).

Your post is pretty stereotypical of a clueless carebear. Next time you should try reading through the thread and posting something constructive. Also if high-sec is SO risky then how come you know nothing about aggro mechanics? Bounty Hunters... LOL


2. Why should mind numbing farming in high sec be a high risk profession? Make low/null relatively more profitable to encourage the risk vs reward model, don't make high sec less secure.

4. Yes high sec pvp should be more then suicide ganking. However, i don't see how using lame/cheap tactics to bait an unwilling mission ship into a fight they don't want by removing the warnings is any different. You are just asking for free kills on those who have less experience then yourself, which in a sense is worse then suicide ganking.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#476 - 2014-03-11 22:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Hasikan Miallok
Organic Lager wrote:
[quote=hellokittyonline]


4. Yes high sec pvp should be more then suicide ganking. However, i don't see how using lame/cheap tactics to bait an unwilling mission ship into a fight they don't want by removing the warnings is any different. You are just asking for free kills on those who have less experience then yourself, which in a sense is worse then suicide ganking.


You would just end up with losec, where basically PvP takes three forms, raid mission runners, sit on a gate camp and try and catch people you can out gun, or try and gatecamp proof your ship with cloaks and nanos and run away.

It's not as if losec PvP is even a communal activity as often as not a gatecamp will consists of the same guy with three alts, a low SP scout on one side of the gate in a rookie ship or shuttle, and two alts on the other side in some sort of tackle+alpha combo (astero and 'nado for example).
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#477 - 2014-03-12 00:19:49 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:

2. It does to a degree, the main problem is there are too many rewards for a few of the riskless professions (lvl 4 missions and incursions).

4. 200bil destroyed 20bil lost. The only thing that CCP is nerfing is the ability for new players to get in on the fun. High-sec PvP combat should consist of more than just suicide ganking (and believe me this is in both of our best interests).

Your post is pretty stereotypical of a clueless carebear. Next time you should try reading through the thread and posting something constructive. Also if high-sec is SO risky then how come you know nothing about aggro mechanics? Bounty Hunters... LOL


2. Why should mind numbing farming in high sec be a high risk profession? Make low/null relatively more profitable to encourage the risk vs reward model, don't make high sec less secure.

4. Yes high sec pvp should be more then suicide ganking. However, i don't see how using lame/cheap tactics to bait an unwilling mission ship into a fight they don't want by removing the warnings is any different. You are just asking for free kills on those who have less experience then yourself, which in a sense is worse then suicide ganking.

I think mind numbing farming shouldn't be a profession at all. Maybe difficult farming with variables, but no free rides, and DEFINITELY not free rides that pay as well as mission running does.

As far as increasing risk, I have not presented a single idea that increases risk for an informed player. Ganking uninformed players is not the same thing as ganking new players. I target specifically level 4 missions and rarely bait a character less than 5 years old. Furthermore, I encounter 5+ year old toons on a very regular basis that still don't know a thing about tracking/transversal/explosion velocity, how to control their drones, or how aggression mechanics work. Pilots should have to learn the basics of combat before they're plexing their account with combat oriented PvE.

It seems to me like you're refusing to comprehend anything that is not in line with your personal interests. I have just as much of a right to do what I do as a mission runner does to farm and my right should not take the back seat just because carebears refuse to learn. You can have your cake, and you can even eat it by simply learning how (like the rest of us have to do) but you cannot take away my cake because you want it easy.
Ryan Easte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#478 - 2014-03-12 00:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryan Easte
DELETED
Ryan Easte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#479 - 2014-03-12 01:18:05 UTC
I'm sorry, i've not had my morning coffee terribly out of character for me
hellokittyonline
Hellokitty's Online Adventure
The Conference
#480 - 2014-03-12 01:39:06 UTC
Because if people like me weren't buying them for isk, people like you wouldn't be able to sell them for isk... but you still have the right to blindly hate me for reasons you've made up in your head... you know... if that's your thing.