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CCP Development Patterns

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Nyla Skin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-01-30 11:32:40 UTC
Random Woman wrote:

Something is systematically wrong with CCP QA, and it should change, there are no excuses.


Maybe the problem is not in testing, but rather in 'fixing'...

In after the lock :P   - CCP Falcon www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#82 - 2014-01-30 12:37:10 UTC
Leviathani Darkri wrote:

I don't get as upset with the bugs as do some. Bugs I can deal with they do get fixed, usually, sooner that later. The bitter pill to swallow is watching "features" and "improvements" and "game balance" that nobody ever requested get forced down our throats seemingly with each successive release for the past ten years. In just Rubicon 1.1 we got to watch with delight as CCP force fed us ESS and the D-Scan deployables ignoring literally hundreds of pages of negative feedback on these forums.

Sure, there have been some awesome things along the way. But all the negatives force me to look back with nostalgia on the game I used to play. It just isn't the same.


QFT

I've been playing EVE Offline for about 4 months now. Was looking forward to the continuing balancing and seeing what Fozzie and Rise were going to do with pirate BS hulls. Instead we get more pointless deployables.

Not today spaghetti.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#83 - 2014-01-30 13:53:51 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:

so you call adding lp reward to the ESS without changing how it works when ppl just ask for it to be removed, then after change, still say, it's useless anyway won't use it, is integrating feedback? that's interresting.

that is not feedback integration, that is illusion of feedback integration, ignore 90% of the feeedback, only cherry pick one or two idea that go your way, and voila. this is EXACTLY what was done with ESS, if you can't understand this, you are either delusional or thick


Please refrain from personal attacks. It does not help discussion.

There is big difference between ignoring feedback and not doing what the feedback wants. If you go check that ESS thread you will find dev posts and some changes made upon feedback. Acting on feedback does in no way mean it has to happen. It also has nothing to do with being right or wrong.

In case of ESS devs just want to implement it. Then people came in and told them we don't like this its a wrong decision. Devs evaluated this feedback and concluded they still want to implement it. If it was good or bad decision is yet to be seen.

So stop blaming devs for ignoring feedback. They generally do not ignore it and proven it many times.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
Transgress
#84 - 2014-01-30 14:07:18 UTC
I have never worked in QA so my views might be misleading, but I am software developer so i know quite a lot about bugs.

Every piece of a new code has a bugs. To hunt them down you need to stop the development and run regression tests. Then identify the bugs, repair them and run another regression test to make sure your fixes did not break something else.

If EVEs regression test takes 2 week to run it means you have to stop development for at least a month, probably two. If EvE is to maintain 2 major releases a year losing one third of this time just for testing is infeasible.

So you run regression test on your development code and do more development in meantime. Then when you get test results you go and fix those bugs. And hope you did not break too much with it. This has drawback of some bugs sipping through but allows much higher development pace. Also if you fix found bugs afterwards in rapid manner it is deemed acceptable.
Bloodmyst Ranwar
Menace of Morons
#85 - 2014-02-21 05:30:49 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
You have to expect things will probably break when something new is released (IT ALWAYS IS WITH SOFTWARE MOST OF THE TIME WHEN A PATCH IS RELEASED TO FIX ONE THING, YOU JUST BROKE THE ANOTHER!!!)

i don't know where you actually work or even if you work at all,but i'd like the name of your company so i never have to deal with it.

if this is the way you do updates / patch for your software....well might be time for a reconversion


You obviously don't have much experience in the industry. Not everything is peaches and apples. Yes, most companies try to mitigate this as much as possible. But there is always something....
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#86 - 2014-02-21 09:30:05 UTC
Development should never be halted with regression testing, QA, UAT, any of that. Modern source control allows for easy branching of the code and backporting of patches as they're fixed while development on new features can safely continue on in parallel without affecting a given release candidate/branch. The idea that you have only one stream of development that must be frozen to perform testing on is quite archaic (and as practitioners of Agile methodology, I highly doubt CCP do this).
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-02-21 09:47:51 UTC
What so terrible happened for peopel be whinning like that?

If ccp had made a bludner like the one they made with trinity deplymewnt destroying half the windows Xp worldwide.. then there would be reason to be angry.

But i had not seen anythign serious this week.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-02-21 09:49:31 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Leviathani Darkri wrote:

I don't get as upset with the bugs as do some. Bugs I can deal with they do get fixed, usually, sooner that later. The bitter pill to swallow is watching "features" and "improvements" and "game balance" that nobody ever requested get forced down our throats seemingly with each successive release for the past ten years. In just Rubicon 1.1 we got to watch with delight as CCP force fed us ESS and the D-Scan deployables ignoring literally hundreds of pages of negative feedback on these forums.

Sure, there have been some awesome things along the way. But all the negatives force me to look back with nostalgia on the game I used to play. It just isn't the same.


QFT

I've been playing EVE Offline for about 4 months now. Was looking forward to the continuing balancing and seeing what Fozzie and Rise were going to do with pirate BS hulls. Instead we get more pointless deployables.



Because the more they get near the end of the pools of ships to tiercide.. the more the y approach the red dragon .. the T3 and piraet ships that are the hardest to balance. Its natural things woudl slow down.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#89 - 2014-02-21 13:04:39 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
The thing that confuses me a bit is why they released a patch after 6 weeks. Aren't content patches usually every 12 weeks? Well that made me think of something I read in the news about staff members being laid off from WoD and CCP saying they were going to focus more on Eve. Does this mean CCP are going to aim to release content every 6 weeks now? If they are, then idkaf about a few bugs which can be smoothed out later. Not that it ever bothered me anyway.
In total we had 7 major deployments in 2013 (of which 2 were the summer and winter expansions, and another 2 were the summer 1.1 and winter 1.1). In addition there were multiple DUST deployments and some EVE changes/content in some of them. In addition there were many patches and even more server and DB hotfixes. For 2014 we have lined up 10 major deployments so far, more will very possible be added later.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Cheekabu Talvanen
Doomheim
#90 - 2014-02-21 13:37:14 UTC
Hope you guys redo sovereignty or something. powerblocs rule the game and would be nice to let other people in 0.0 without some powerbloc pissing all over you in some sov system they dont even use.

Dont even open up more space cause thats just going to get taken by powerblocs and still no room for the little guys.
Josef Djugashvilis
#91 - 2014-02-21 15:17:07 UTC
Treborr MintingtonJr wrote:
I think more of us need to go on SiSi to improve the scope of UAT.


Perhaps if SiSi was much easier to download. install and use, then computer idiots like my good self would be only too happy to test stuff for both the players and CCP.

Download,

Click play icon,

Use SiSi.

That would do nicely CCP.

This is not a signature.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#92 - 2014-02-21 15:31:13 UTC
Someone said the standings bug wasn't on SiSi. This means one of a few things:

- SiSi is not being used to test the Final release candidate and code made it to production without being tested (CCP say this isn't the case)
- SiSi did have the latest code, but was missing other changes. (Database batch job? Too long since last mirror? Something not-code)
- Despite both environments being functionally identical, the bug only occurred on production

Either way, given the high profile nature of the bug, it suggests a glaring gap in testing somewhere that needs plugging.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#93 - 2014-02-21 16:17:00 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

and i'm just naming a few, they have all one thing in common, they do contain feedback / proposal from player and / or legitimate arguments explaining, with details, WHY the current iteration is not good or why the idea is bad, yet, they were ALL ignored by CCP. plain and simple

let's take for example the jump animation.

during the devellopment, some dev warned about the fact that the animation was causing motion sickness inducing deeziness and headaches.

they ignored it, pushed to SISI

while on SISI, players made the very same feedback, and were ignored

it then reached TQ, and is still there, from day 1, a topic in general discussion was created, with many post asking that, at least, CCP add an option to turn off the animation, for the vary same reasons, yet to this day, the only answer CCP gave is more or less HTFU.

and this is the same thing everytime, so yeah, sure, it is the right solution to actually post constructive feedback.....



Then vote with your wallet man! Biomass, unsub, and never look back. Let these guys at CCP know that you will not be ignored and you mean serious business or, you know, keep brow beating in GD. Hell if they ignore you in the places that they're looking for feedback what in the hell makes you think they're not ignoring you here?

actually 3 of my 4 accounts have ended sub since odyssey release(3rd last week), this one ends in april.....



In subbing means nothing to ccp as they have said the are at a place where it's ok to lose players/subs

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#94 - 2014-02-21 16:45:50 UTC
*sigh* - to be in a real team doing real software development must be nice.



How about we make it easier to access the test server? I now that to access the test server, there are various steps that must be performed, but as usual, this is a lot of work for people. But the procedure appears solid, so why not automate it on the client side and then let the Launcher show a button or option for "enter test server". I think more players will go into the test server this way, especially when they are on the fence about a certain PVP fitting or have a new ship they never flown before.

The more people using the test server, the better. I would even wonder if there were special out-of-character live events in the test server, more then just "stress tests", centered on new features it might draw more people into testing it - at the click of a button - and get more feedback.

Just an idea.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Notorious Fellon
#95 - 2014-02-21 16:49:13 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
*sigh* - to be in a real team doing real software development must be nice.



How about we make it easier to access the test server? I now that to access the test server, there are various steps that must be performed, but as usual, this is a lot of work for people. But the procedure appears solid, so why not automate it on the client side and then let the Launcher show a button or option for "enter test server". I think more players will go into the test server this way, especially when they are on the fence about a certain PVP fitting or have a new ship they never flown before.

The more people using the test server, the better. I would even wonder if there were special out-of-character live events in the test server, more then just "stress tests", centered on new features it might draw more people into testing it - at the click of a button - and get more feedback.

Just an idea.



This would help.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2014-02-21 17:30:28 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
we use highly trained and experienced outsourcers to handle our regression testing


I can exclusively reveal the extensive outsourced testing process required for all Eve patches to be approved:

1) Open the game client and check that the patch applies properly, at the Laundromat Cafe

2) Login to the game and ensure, the character selection screen works, at Enski barinn

3) Undock from the station and warp a nearby celestial, at Íslenski barinn

4) Warp and jump through the nearest gate. While you wait for the jump animation, walk to Næsti

5) In the next shystem, find the nearesht ashteroid belt and shoot some rats, at Celtic Cross

6) Doubble-check the usher interfashe for any problkems, at B5

7) Be sssure to rite a full and detailed bug report of any shignificant isssues, at Nonni's
Hoshi Sorano
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2014-02-21 18:05:59 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Devblog - As the current facilitator of CCP Reykjavik's Agile Community of Practice, I tabled that we write exactly such a devblog not a month ago!


I just thought I'd step in to point out that this is one of those international communication issues you want to be careful about - the use of expressions that hold different meanings across borders. In the American vernacular, to "table" something is to set it aside to be addressed at a later date, rather than to make it the current topic of discussion. In fact, there is a classic story of a diplomatic conference in which British and American delegates argued for quite some time about whether to "table" a particular topic, and it was eventually discovered that they both wanted the same thing!

My point being that to an American, your statement reads as though you are claiming responsibility for intentionally delaying or avoiding such a devblog, which is probably not the impression you intended to make!
Serene Repose
#98 - 2014-02-21 18:27:10 UTC
Does this mean we'll get an announcement when it's safe to use DX 11 again?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#99 - 2014-02-21 18:29:22 UTC
Hoshi Sorano wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Devblog - As the current facilitator of CCP Reykjavik's Agile Community of Practice, I tabled that we write exactly such a devblog not a month ago!
I just thought I'd step in to point out that this is one of those international communication issues you want to be careful about - the use of expressions that hold different meanings across borders. In the American vernacular, to "table" something is to set it aside to be addressed at a later date, rather than to make it the current topic of discussion. In fact, there is a classic story of a diplomatic conference in which British and American delegates argued for quite some time about whether to "table" a particular topic, and it was eventually discovered that they both wanted the same thing!

My point being that to an American, your statement reads as though you are claiming responsibility for intentionally delaying or avoiding such a devblog, which is probably not the impression you intended to make!
I had not clue what he was saying either, I thought we had *proposed* to write such a devblog Ugh

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Themanfromdalmontee
EVE RADIO ARMY
#100 - 2014-02-21 20:53:30 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Hoshi Sorano wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Devblog - As the current facilitator of CCP Reykjavik's Agile Community of Practice, I tabled that we write exactly such a devblog not a month ago!
I just thought I'd step in to point out that this is one of those international communication issues you want to be careful about - the use of expressions that hold different meanings across borders. In the American vernacular, to "table" something is to set it aside to be addressed at a later date, rather than to make it the current topic of discussion. In fact, there is a classic story of a diplomatic conference in which British and American delegates argued for quite some time about whether to "table" a particular topic, and it was eventually discovered that they both wanted the same thing!

My point being that to an American, your statement reads as though you are claiming responsibility for intentionally delaying or avoiding such a devblog, which is probably not the impression you intended to make!
I had not clue what he was saying either, I thought we had *proposed* to write such a devblog Ugh


I guess Americans have to be more global then? :P