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CCP Development Patterns

First post
Author
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#61 - 2014-01-29 18:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Kimmi Chan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
yeah, cause when player gives constructive feedback, it goes ho so well......Roll


This would be a good argument if there were anything constructive in this thread,

Or this one:

NuroCorp wrote:
Or is this working as intended, and Successfully Deployed?Shocked

Get your asses in gear and fix all the things you screwed up. While your at it, get all the little retards who were involved in this update, throw them in the meeting room and over megaphone tell them why they suck at there job.

"Coding is hard..." excuses " Fix it or we will remove the body guards that save you from the village rabble. That should help them work both day and night.

Out of the epic patch fails, sure this doesn't rank in the top three, but its sure a contender for Bork up of the year, 2014.


Or this one:


Lugia3 wrote:
The d-scan window no longer shows the precision tracking camera button. I haven't found it yet, and it probably doesn't exist. The normal tracking camera also does not work for this, because it does not aim towards the center.

Fix it.

Fix it now.

[EDIT: Always count on CCP to take simple functions and make you go through a radial menu to access them again!"



go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

and i'm just naming a few, they have all one thing in common, they do contain feedback / proposal from player and / or legitimate arguments explaining, with details, WHY the current iteration is not good or why the idea is bad, yet, they were ALL ignored by CCP. plain and simple

let's take for example the jump animation.

during the devellopment, some dev warned about the fact that the animation was causing motion sickness inducing deeziness and headaches.

they ignored it, pushed to SISI

while on SISI, players made the very same feedback, and were ignored

it then reached TQ, and is still there, from day 1, a topic in general discussion was created, with many post asking that, at least, CCP add an option to turn off the animation, for the vary same reasons, yet to this day, the only answer CCP gave is more or less HTFU.

and this is the same thing everytime, so yeah, sure, it is the right solution to actually post constructive feedback.....
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#62 - 2014-01-29 18:51:51 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:

tell me again how one would have missed the current standing issue if it would have been tested on another server? because except that the person running the test is blind, no way to miss it.


I was quite often on sisi and I did not notice it at all.

as i explained, this is because they do not release exactly the same thing, some bug were present on SISI and solved on the TQ release, and the opposite is also true.

hence why i said that, the TQ release was not tested
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#63 - 2014-01-29 18:55:55 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

and i'm just naming a few, they have all one thing in common, they do contain feedback / proposal from player and / or legitimate arguments explaining, with details, WHY the current iteration is not good or why the idea is bad, yet, they were ALL ignored by CCP. plain and simple

let's take for example the jump animation.

during the devellopment, some dev warned about the fact that the animation was causing motion sickness inducing deeziness and headaches.

they ignored it, pushed to SISI

while on SISI, players made the very same feedback, and were ignored

it then reached TQ, and is still there, from day 1, a topic in general discussion was created, with many post asking that, at least, CCP add an option to turn off the animation, for the vary same reasons, yet to this day, the only answer CCP gave is more or less HTFU.

and this is the same thing everytime, so yeah, sure, it is the right solution to actually post constructive feedback.....



Then vote with your wallet man! Biomass, unsub, and never look back. Let these guys at CCP know that you will not be ignored and you mean serious business or, you know, keep brow beating in GD. Hell if they ignore you in the places that they're looking for feedback what in the hell makes you think they're not ignoring you here?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#64 - 2014-01-29 19:00:08 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

and i'm just naming a few, they have all one thing in common, they do contain feedback / proposal from player and / or legitimate arguments explaining, with details, WHY the current iteration is not good or why the idea is bad, yet, they were ALL ignored by CCP. plain and simple

let's take for example the jump animation.

during the devellopment, some dev warned about the fact that the animation was causing motion sickness inducing deeziness and headaches.

they ignored it, pushed to SISI

while on SISI, players made the very same feedback, and were ignored

it then reached TQ, and is still there, from day 1, a topic in general discussion was created, with many post asking that, at least, CCP add an option to turn off the animation, for the vary same reasons, yet to this day, the only answer CCP gave is more or less HTFU.

and this is the same thing everytime, so yeah, sure, it is the right solution to actually post constructive feedback.....



Then vote with your wallet man! Biomass, unsub, and never look back. Let these guys at CCP know that you will not be ignored and you mean serious business or, you know, keep brow beating in GD. Hell if they ignore you in the places that they're looking for feedback what in the hell makes you think they're not ignoring you here?

actually 3 of my 4 accounts have ended sub since odyssey release(3rd last week), this one ends in april.....
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#65 - 2014-01-29 19:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Danikov
Kryptik Kai wrote:
Its amazing how many software developers play EVE

It's probably because we're accustomed to spreadsheets and numbers ;)

Kimmi Chan wrote:
Oh look another unemployed Software Developer and/or Project Manager looking for a job at CCP.

Software Developer, yes- been programming since I was in my teens, studied it at University and have had a career doing so for the past 5 years or so.

Unemployed, no, and fairly happily so. I don't know enough Python to apply to CCP either, but I have entertained the thought.

CCP Goliath wrote:
-lovely process info snipped-

Didn't mean to sound condescending with the Release Candidate aside, just was trying to be aware of the wider audience here in GD. TBH, your response was pretty much what I was hoping for and expected.

Your release cycle does seem crazily short to me- while I love the release early, release often mentality, I wouldn't have thought it 100% appropriate for EVE given the fact that you can only release once a day on a normal basis. Still, good to hear that the RCs are deployed to SiSi ahead of patches- maybe worth highlighting this to the general community on a more regular basis to spur player involvement in testing. Also concerning that some of the bugs weren't caught on SiSi- makes me think that there's more than code changes going on (hence the insistence of more frequent mirroring of Tranquillity, not that I have the foggiest whether that was the crucial difference in this case).

Don't have anything to say about your testing practices, seem perfectly kosher to me!

I guess the only thing really missing from the whole equation is a) whether these bugs were known before release and knowingly allowed into it (unlikely, but concerning if they were), or b) how they slipped past the various levels of testing (also concerning). Be interesting to hear the results of that. As I'm sure you know (but others may not), one of the core tenets of Agile is finding a process that works for you by constantly iterating on what's working and what isn't. Deal-breakers making it into production like this is a big red flag that something isn't right, so I'm curious to hear about what that was and how it gets fixed.

Also, very much looking forward to the DevBlog on your process (which maybe can cover some of the 'fixing what went wrong with 1.1', perhaps?), although maybe you can name some of your keen contributors so they can be held to account... otherwise I'll bug you and only you about it ;)

Any chance that you can poke someone who is responsible for the other areas to comment?

Regardless, thanks for taking the time to answer what you could, CCP Goliath.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#66 - 2014-01-29 19:08:28 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
actually 3 of my 4 accounts have ended sub since odyssey release(3rd last week), this one ends in april.....


Have fun and fly safe wherever you end up. o7

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#67 - 2014-01-29 19:23:55 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
All that stuff in response to CCP Goliath.


THAT is the definition of constructive.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-01-29 19:46:55 UTC
Random Woman wrote:
This is what I put into that survey form for whats bad/should change or whatever the last 3 yearly surveys. CCP QA is utter **** and needs to improve.

Either the testers have no idea what they are testing, they are just bad, or theiy are laughting their asses off after handing you test protocols.

I really do not think that there are full regression tests every two weeks, because then the only explanation for the product you ship is, that you do the testing, but ignore the results completly.

Most major patches come with a quality standard that is expected after the first one or two devoloper tests.

Developer tests suck, I do them all the time, and I miss a lot of bugs. Thats why you need a dedicated testing crew, that knows what the product is about in detail. Of cause that means to get told you made a mistake by someone, but it also means you have the chance to correct that mistake before everyone is affected by it.

Also it was on sisi for two weeks is no test either, I dont think that majority of eve knows anything about softwaretesting, they just want to fly ships they cant afford. And the ppl with software testing background probably cant be arsed to try stuff out, because software testing is work. I pay money to play a game, not to keep doing the suff I waste the other 10 hours every day on.

The other thing with SiSi is if you try to help out you get repeatedly ganked by idiots in the only system that has players in it to join up with. Even asking politely in local for people not to gank you will get you ganked.

I logged on to help with testing of the changes to command ships a few months ago. No kidding I was having people 'helping' me only to have their gang warp in carriers, dreads, supers for my sole Nighthawk once I was scrammed.

Ended up having to make a safe and using an alt to test and then logging off in disgust.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Leviathani Darkri
Road To Isk
#69 - 2014-01-29 19:53:52 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

and i'm just naming a few, they have all one thing in common, they do contain feedback / proposal from player and / or legitimate arguments explaining, with details, WHY the current iteration is not good or why the idea is bad, yet, they were ALL ignored by CCP. plain and simple

let's take for example the jump animation.

during the devellopment, some dev warned about the fact that the animation was causing motion sickness inducing deeziness and headaches.

they ignored it, pushed to SISI

while on SISI, players made the very same feedback, and were ignored

it then reached TQ, and is still there, from day 1, a topic in general discussion was created, with many post asking that, at least, CCP add an option to turn off the animation, for the vary same reasons, yet to this day, the only answer CCP gave is more or less HTFU.

and this is the same thing everytime, so yeah, sure, it is the right solution to actually post constructive feedback.....



Then vote with your wallet man! Biomass, unsub, and never look back. Let these guys at CCP know that you will not be ignored and you mean serious business or, you know, keep brow beating in GD. Hell if they ignore you in the places that they're looking for feedback what in the hell makes you think they're not ignoring you here?


I don't post on these forums much but I will say that sadly this looks more and more like the option to take. And it's a shame really. I've played eve more on than off, with various characters, for nearly ten years now. I've put time into this game that most ordinary people wouldn't invest into a full time job. Many of us have.

I love this game, no other game has ever captured my attention and imagination like EVE has. I think most of us here feel the same way or we wouldn't get as personally invested in these often bitter diatribes against the often less than popular powers that rule over our favorite past time.

I don't get as upset with the bugs as do some. Bugs I can deal with they do get fixed, usually, sooner that later. The bitter pill to swallow is watching "features" and "improvements" and "game balance" that nobody ever requested get forced down our throats seemingly with each successive release for the past ten years. In just Rubicon 1.1 we got to watch with delight as CCP force fed us ESS and the D-Scan deployables ignoring literally hundreds of pages of negative feedback on these forums.

Sure, there have been some awesome things along the way. But all the negatives force me to look back with nostalgia on the game I used to play. It just isn't the same.


DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#70 - 2014-01-29 21:03:41 UTC
Sometimes I love experience....

Now then, background, oh tl;dr all of it. I started in eve in march of 2004. As of april 2004 this account will be 10 years old... so I have ALOT of experience with ccp.

People keep bringing up the boot.ini thing, which was an accident, a huge mess up yes, but an accident. Most of you were not around before that. And this is how patch day would go in the past.

Patch set to be deployed at 10am Iceland time to be done by 10:45am...

ooops patch issue, server to be up at 11...

no make that 12....

no make that 1....

no make that 5....

ok got it at 4:30 everyone on.

4:40 server crash

5 server up

5:30 crash

5:45 hotfix deployed server up

550 crash

6 hot fix

6:01 lag from hell all over

6:02 server down

8pm server up

8:30 crash

9 hotfix

910 stable... kinda

next day hot fix

next day hot fix

next day patch

next day hot fix

server stable

lets see.... that was constant, with every patch and update, all of them. Then ccp changed how they do things, and now you get:

server to be deployed at 11:00 am be up at 12pm

11:45am server up

hotfix
hotfix

server stable and playable, with some bugs getting fixed.

Honestly, none of you know crap about what patch day was like. it was hell. This patch was nothing. the only bug that I know of that might be causing a whine is what standings...? And a few video card issues.. which maybe you need driver updates? which makes me laugh, cause until 4 years ago I guess now? you did not see ANY standings in local. people had to manually check to see if someone was blue or red. So I find all you whine babies to be cute.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#71 - 2014-01-29 21:15:15 UTC
Leviathani Darkri wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

and i'm just naming a few, they have all one thing in common, they do contain feedback / proposal from player and / or legitimate arguments explaining, with details, WHY the current iteration is not good or why the idea is bad, yet, they were ALL ignored by CCP. plain and simple

let's take for example the jump animation.

during the devellopment, some dev warned about the fact that the animation was causing motion sickness inducing deeziness and headaches.

they ignored it, pushed to SISI

while on SISI, players made the very same feedback, and were ignored

it then reached TQ, and is still there, from day 1, a topic in general discussion was created, with many post asking that, at least, CCP add an option to turn off the animation, for the vary same reasons, yet to this day, the only answer CCP gave is more or less HTFU.

and this is the same thing everytime, so yeah, sure, it is the right solution to actually post constructive feedback.....



Then vote with your wallet man! Biomass, unsub, and never look back. Let these guys at CCP know that you will not be ignored and you mean serious business or, you know, keep brow beating in GD. Hell if they ignore you in the places that they're looking for feedback what in the hell makes you think they're not ignoring you here?


I don't post on these forums much but I will say that sadly this looks more and more like the option to take. And it's a shame really. I've played eve more on than off, with various characters, for nearly ten years now. I've put time into this game that most ordinary people wouldn't invest into a full time job. Many of us have.

I love this game, no other game has ever captured my attention and imagination like EVE has. I think most of us here feel the same way or we wouldn't get as personally invested in these often bitter diatribes against the often less than popular powers that rule over our favorite past time.

I don't get as upset with the bugs as do some. Bugs I can deal with they do get fixed, usually, sooner that later. The bitter pill to swallow is watching "features" and "improvements" and "game balance" that nobody ever requested get forced down our throats seemingly with each successive release for the past ten years. In just Rubicon 1.1 we got to watch with delight as CCP force fed us ESS and the D-Scan deployables ignoring literally hundreds of pages of negative feedback on these forums.

Sure, there have been some awesome things along the way. But all the negatives force me to look back with nostalgia on the game I used to play. It just isn't the same.




Stupid work pc ate my reply... the long of the short of it, things change for various reasons, your input was taken into account and ess changed. Adapt or die blah blah blah... ya my other reply was better.. oh well

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#72 - 2014-01-29 21:24:42 UTC
OP, let me tell you something. I have been on sisi and I can tell you that the standings issue was not present. So quit giving the devs a rash and HTFU.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Bloodmyst Ranwar
Leviathan Rising
#73 - 2014-01-30 00:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodmyst Ranwar
seth Hendar wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Wow. Just wow.

The part that amazes me about this whole thing is that CCP Goliath came here to address your concerns, tried to explain things, and did so taking time out of his work day (which incidentally is spent fixing the **** that everyone is bitching about).

And immediately after doing so the collective persona of Eve GD proceeds to throw ***** at him like little ******* monkeys.

There was a thread a couple of days ago about, "Why did you pick Eve?" I picked it because during my trial I found it more sophisticated and mature than WoW (pre-dumbass pandas). Now I look at the forums and see that it has no greater maturity. It's the same douchebaggery but coming from people averaging twice the age of the typical WoW player.

So the next time you post in a bitching thread about this thing or that thing, demanding that CCP respond, remember this day. If you all act this way when they do respond, next time they may not come back to tell you **** because you can't be ******* adult about it.

it seems you just lack history regarding this.

we are not complaining about one specific issue, but about a chronic lack of QA in CCP's release.

i play since early 2010, and yet, not a SINGLE expansion have been released without breaking something major.

if you add this, to the fact that during testings, player DO give feedback, and even make constructive proposals, only to get simply ignored by CCP, like unified inventory, odyssey exploration, the jump animation(wich is STILL making some ppl sick), the missiles thingy, the various rebalances done after the cruisers which litteraly made some ship useless (half matar is now missiles? wtf?), more recently, the ESS (and the list goes on......).

there is a moment when, if the only interaction you have with the player base, is to smear your crap in their face, they'll start doing the same.

it's called mutual respect, not talking about a dev specificaly, but CCP in general, seems to ignore this.

an angry player base will go vocal, and the longer you ignore it, the more vocal it'll go, and the less it will be open to compromises.

CCP learned that during incarna, or should have......

i'm starting to ask myself if they aren't secretly wishing for it to happen again, at least they act like it.....



Well I'm just happy CCP actually provides more content every 6 months to this game..... You have to expect things will probably break when something new is released (IT ALWAYS IS WITH SOFTWARE MOST OF THE TIME WHEN A PATCH IS RELEASED TO FIX ONE THING, YOU JUST BROKE THE ANOTHER!!!)

The point is, CCP is quick to fix it... 24 hour turnover time is good in my books. Go to EA or Activision/Blizzard and expect such prompt response times! Guess what, you're going to be **** out of luck! You will be waiting much longer if not forever for anything to get done.

All I'd like to say is thanks CCP for providing more content day in, day out. Yeah, of course things will go wrong... but at least **** gets promptly fixed.

I think some people are too quick to forget what other developers are like........
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2014-01-30 00:22:56 UTC
On the plus side at least the Nestor has broken the "Evil Santa" pattern of handing out new stuff that is OP and then later nerfing it.

Though it may have been pre-nerfed a wee bit too much :D
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#75 - 2014-01-30 02:32:57 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:

go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

Other than you know, the MASSIVE changes to ESS, the heavy work to smooth out the jump animation, the huge changes to proposed rebalances before release, all based on feedback.
Just because they don't change it to the way YOU want it doesn't mean they are ignoring the feedback. They have a vision for the game and will try and take it there. Players won't always like that vision and occasionally some might leave.

But trying to claim they aren't listening to feedback when your examples all had significant changes to them based entirely on player feedback and most of them directly used a player idea..... Yea. Epitome of dumb raging troll.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#76 - 2014-01-30 02:44:07 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
On the plus side at least the Nestor has broken the "Evil Santa" pattern of handing out new stuff that is OP and then later nerfing it.

Though it may have been pre-nerfed a wee bit too much :D


I'm seeing the pre-nerf too but I guess that's an improvement but tbh, broken op modules and ships are more fun than balanced ones.
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#77 - 2014-01-30 06:40:45 UTC
People should stop confusing balance with softeware quality. I coulnt care less if freighters would be able to alpha titans of the field, and noob ships get AOE Doomsday.

I do care about stuff, that breaks features. Right now we had the wormhole wabble, we had signature strenght without even scanning, and probably the AOE Nullsec doomsday aka standing error.
Solai
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-01-30 08:47:04 UTC
This thread is redonkulous.

Props to CCP Goliath for daring to wade into the implacable nerd horde.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#79 - 2014-01-30 08:57:16 UTC
Bloodmyst Ranwar wrote:
You have to expect things will probably break when something new is released (IT ALWAYS IS WITH SOFTWARE MOST OF THE TIME WHEN A PATCH IS RELEASED TO FIX ONE THING, YOU JUST BROKE THE ANOTHER!!!)

i don't know where you actually work or even if you work at all,but i'd like the name of your company so i never have to deal with it.

if this is the way you do updates / patch for your software....well might be time for a reconversion
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#80 - 2014-01-30 09:02:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:

go look at the threads about ESS, unified inventory, odyssey exploration, jump animation, the various ship rebalance (interceptor for example), both in F&I and SISI feedback.

Other than you know, the MASSIVE changes to ESS, the heavy work to smooth out the jump animation, the huge changes to proposed rebalances before release, all based on feedback.
Just because they don't change it to the way YOU want it doesn't mean they are ignoring the feedback. They have a vision for the game and will try and take it there. Players won't always like that vision and occasionally some might leave.

But trying to claim they aren't listening to feedback when your examples all had significant changes to them based entirely on player feedback and most of them directly used a player idea..... Yea. Epitome of dumb raging troll.

so you call adding lp reward to the ESS without changing how it works when ppl just ask for it to be removed, then after change, still say, it's useless anyway won't use it, is integrating feedback? that's interresting.

that is not feedback integration, that is illusion of feedback integration, ignore 90% of the feeedback, only cherry pick one or two idea that go your way, and voila. this is EXACTLY what was done with ESS, if you can't understand this, you are either delusional or thick