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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor First post First post First post
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Zircon Dasher

Likes received: 356

#781 - 2014-01-09 19:04:53 UTC

Argument against MSI: If we send a scout, it might tip our hand and let a bear escape. If we warp en mass, we might get slaughtered because it could be a trap set up by non-bears.

SOoooo...Risk averse bears are going to be too safe because risk averse PVPers won't commit without knowing exactly who/what/how many are hiding beneath the MSI skirt. Cool

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Theon Severasse

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 145

#782 - 2014-01-09 19:14:33 UTC

Zircon Dasher wrote:

My argument isn't that you have to use a scout (although I don't like that either), it's that you have to use a scout AND that scout has to be interdiction nullified. This means either an interceptor, or a T3 if you don't wish them to know that they have been scouted.

If I am solo and I see an MSI on a gate, and people in local, I won't be thinking "how can I make this fight go my way". I will be thinking "I can't reasonably take this fight", and I will just turn around. This isn't being risk averse, the fight might have been one I would have take if I knew what was there,even if I was outnumbered, but I am weighing the fact that I have probably been flying around for an hour or so without finding a fight, and not wanting to just suicide my ship into a gang.

Priestess Lin

Darkfall Corp

Likes received: 123

#783 - 2014-01-09 19:17:43 UTC | Edited by: Priestess Lin

Zircon Dasher wrote:

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if YOU are going to play it SAFE, by sending an expendible scout. You also give opportunities for your prey. If you want to get the jump on them, you might actually have to take a real risk for a reward for once. See how that works?

What you are saying is you want to take no risks and get kills. This seems to be the status quo mentality of EVE. That lambs should be presented up for slaughter at the mere press of a button (d-scan).

I guess the "good" news for you pirates is that you should never expect to encounter a solo PVErs in one of these things are they are far too costly for their duration in addition to disabling all Intel. Therefore, these nerfs defeat the purpose of the MSI since the most rational thing to do for aggressors would be to ALWAYS send an expendable scout since multiple hostiles are to be expected.

Shitting in your own nest is the way of EVE, apparently.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049

Erasmus Phoenix

Avalanche.

Likes received: 130

#784 - 2014-01-09 19:21:14 UTC

Priestess Lin wrote:

Zircon Dasher wrote:

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if YOU are going to play it SAFE, by sending an expendible scout. You also give opportunities for your prey. If you want to get the jump on them, you might actually have to take a real risk for a reward for once. See how that works?

What you are saying is you want to take no risks and get kills. This seems to be the status quo mentality of EVE. That lamps are presented up for slaughter at the mere press of a button (d-scan).

I guess the "good" news for you pirates is that you should never expect to encounter a solo PVErs in one of these things are they are far too costly for their duration in addition to disabling all Intel.

Shitting in your own nest is the way of EVE, apparently.

I absolutely love it when I can easily slaughter light fitting after light fitting.

Oh a more serious note, do you really, really not see that it is far easier for a PvE solo ship to GTFO when a pirate comes into system than it is for said pirate to catch that player? The PvEr has local on their side. they know the instant there is anyone else there. More than that, they have d-scan too, and rather than having to fiddle around working out exactly where their hunter is coming from, they just have to know that they're there and they can hit warp.

If you catch someone ratting, they are either stupid or AFK. It's that simple.

Priestess Lin

Darkfall Corp

Likes received: 123

#785 - 2014-01-09 19:23:58 UTC | Edited by: Priestess Lin

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

Priestess Lin wrote:

Zircon Dasher wrote:

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if YOU are going to play it SAFE, by sending an expendible scout. You also give opportunities for your prey. If you want to get the jump on them, you might actually have to take a real risk for a reward for once. See how that works?

What you are saying is you want to take no risks and get kills. This seems to be the status quo mentality of EVE. That lamps are presented up for slaughter at the mere press of a button (d-scan).

I guess the "good" news for you pirates is that you should never expect to encounter a solo PVErs in one of these things are they are far too costly for their duration in addition to disabling all Intel.

Shitting in your own nest is the way of EVE, apparently.

We aren't just talking about local, ratting, and the uncommon scenario where the player knows every entity on local. Try again.

Erasmus Phoenix

Avalanche.

Likes received: 130

#786 - 2014-01-09 19:25:29 UTC | Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix

If you're doing any kind of PvE activity in a wormhole where you aren't constantly watching for signatures and don't have all the known entrances closed then you are AFK or stupid.

If you're ratting or mining or whatever with neuts or reds already in local, then you should be prepared for that fact. you still have d-scan. you only need to know they're there, they need to know where you are.

Try again.

Theon Severasse

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 145

#787 - 2014-01-09 19:26:50 UTC

Priestess Lin wrote:

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

Priestess Lin wrote:

Zircon Dasher wrote:

You can't have your cake and eat it too, if YOU are going to play it SAFE, by sending an expendible scout. You also give opportunities for your prey. If you want to get the jump on them, you might actually have to take a real risk for a reward for once. See how that works?

What you are saying is you want to take no risks and get kills. This seems to be the status quo mentality of EVE. That lamps are presented up for slaughter at the mere press of a button (d-scan).

I guess the "good" news for you pirates is that you should never expect to encounter a solo PVErs in one of these things are they are far too costly for their duration in addition to disabling all Intel.

Shitting in your own nest is the way of EVE, apparently.

We aren't just talking about local, ratting, and the scenario where the player knows every entity on local. Try again.

You have been though. So answer his question.

Omnathious Deninard

University of Caille

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,623

#788 - 2014-01-09 19:29:56 UTC

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Petrus Blackshell wrote:

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

I must admit I haven't seen many scanning T3s without covert ops cloaks, but there is a place for them in certain kinds of fleet warfare. I think it is probably a good piece of balancing, though - they have to stick their head in to see what's inside, so you should have to stick your head out.

I had exploration T3s in mind. You often do not want the covops subsystem on them, since it completely ruins your damage.

You can carry a mobile depot and a subsystem change for exploration in a t3.

You do run into serious space issues. Maybe not in a legion that uses no kinds of charges, but you're severely limited with anything else, especially if you want to take loot back with you. an MSI would be even worse.

If you are going to drag a MSI around with you, you must be close to home so the loot volume wont be a problem.
If you are not close to home, a mobile depot and covert reconfiguration would be a better than a MSI.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Priestess Lin

Darkfall Corp

Likes received: 123

#789 - 2014-01-09 19:37:03 UTC | Edited by: Priestess Lin

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

yea and if you should happen to, god forbid, have to take a **** or answer the door, that moment of not spamming D-scan is enough to cost you your ship. God forbid PVErs should have any defensive tools that actually make it difficult for a pirate where they should have to take risks. Don't pretend scanning someone and warping to them is in any way hard to do. It is far more of a pain in the ass to spam that D-scan every second with vigilance than anything a pirate is required to do.

We get it, you want solo PVErs to stay in high sec. Your wish has been granted via nerfs to the MSI.

Erasmus Phoenix

Avalanche.

Likes received: 130

#790 - 2014-01-09 19:40:49 UTC | Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix

It takes skill to learn to probe someone down quickly, and even more skill to d-scan. Locating with absolute certainty which anom someone is at requires you to warp to multiple locations, doing multiple scans from each, unless you're lucky enough to get an isolated anom within d-scan range of the gate you enter from. Have you ever tried to find somebody with d-scan alone? Try it some time. It's not easy.

The fact is that you're just too lazy to actually watch local and use d-scan regularly. And you can't complain about being killed because you chose to leave your computer when you were vulnerable. It's not the pirate's fault that you had more important things to do and hadn't put your ship into a safe location, that's just a ludicrous argument.

I don't want all PvErs to stay in highsec. I want people to be smarter, or at the very least to stop whining that it's unfair that they have to press d-scan or god forbid look at local.

Theon Severasse

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 145

#791 - 2014-01-09 19:41:16 UTC

Priestess Lin wrote:

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

If someone has to go take a **** or answer the door then they can just dock up, or warp to their POS. I mean they live in that system right? They already have the tools to protect themselves, you don't need any more.

Priestess Lin

Darkfall Corp

Likes received: 123

#792 - 2014-01-09 19:46:22 UTC

CCP Fozzie wrote:

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.

Fozzie, please don't compromise your vision and greater understanding of EVEs players based on the opinions of a few biased individuals.

The increased cost does not factor well into the reward for solo PVErs who want a reason to take risks in low, null and wormhole space.


Omnathious Deninard University of Caille Gallente Federation Likes received: 3,623	#793 - 2014-01-09 19:47:07 UTC Priestess Lin wrote: We get it, you want solo PVErs to stay in high sec. Your wish has been granted via nerfs to the MSI. I don't know where you have been, but exploration has always been a solo thing, with the exception of WHs larger than C3s and some high end DED complexes. If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Erasmus Phoenix

Avalanche.

Likes received: 130

#794 - 2014-01-09 19:49:45 UTC

Priestess Lin wrote:

The increased cost does not factor well into the reward for solo PVErs who want a reason to take risks in low, null and wormhole space.

I don't even...

Every time we counter all your arguments, you just revert back to quoting Fozzie and complaining that people who want to fight aren't taking any risk by doing so.

It's Eve. People are going to shoot you. Adapt or die.

Priestess Lin

Darkfall Corp

Likes received: 123

#795 - 2014-01-09 19:54:30 UTC

Erasmus Phoenix wrote:

It takes skill to learn to probe someone down quickly, and even more skill to d-scan.

kind of like how it takes skill to make a ham sandwich. Lol

remember what you said about wanting to be taken seriously?

btw, aggressors are able to warp to the MSI via probing faster than they would be able to warp to any PVE ships. Smart pirates would have made a killing from the players who may have had a false sense of safety with the MSI. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like any solo PVErs will be using it due to cost and extreme vulnerabilities it creates.

Erasmus Phoenix

Avalanche.

Likes received: 130

#796 - 2014-01-09 20:01:55 UTC

I asked you before if you had any experience finding somebody using d-scan. In order to probe someone in a short amount of time, you ideally should know roughly where they are, using d-scan, then you have to have both player and character skill in order to use the probes quickly, on the right place, to get the right sig.
Finding them without probes is even harder, but I already talked about that. If you have a cluster of anoms or belts, it becomes necessary to try from multiple locations, or to find exact ranges. Non-trivial. I'm sure somebody else will back me up that this takes skill and practice.

There are ham sandwiches, and there are ham sandwiches.

A cheap MSI would be left all over the system, while just using one makes it just as difficult/easy to find with d-scan. Some hunters won't carry probes at all, and most will want to hold off on droping probes until they know their target hasn't moved and they can't get a warpin any other way. If you're in a sig, it's gonna much, much faster to find the sig itself than it will be to find you. If you're at a safe, then you shot yourself in the foot by putting an MSI there, before or after.

Also, here's a little thing - the second you warp OUT of your MSI, you appear on d-scan. the hunter knows you're on the move, and he either moves on or he gets smart and sets a trap.

Priestess Lin

Darkfall Corp

Likes received: 123

#797 - 2014-01-09 20:05:30 UTC | Edited by: Priestess Lin

Theon Severasse wrote:

If someone has to go take a **** or answer the door then they can just dock up, or warp to their POS. I mean they live in that system right? They already have a tool to protect themselves, you don't need any more.

So you have to live in the system and know everyone in local to PVE in low and null, I see.

Hey if thats what you want. Your wish has been granted. No solo roaming PVErs will ever be using this thing and players won't ever be allowed let up on that D-scan for one moment. I was considering going into wormholes and mining with the MSI but no pirate will ever catch me doing that because of these nerfs. BTW, I fixed your statement.


Erasmus Phoenix Avalanche. Likes received: 130	#798 - 2014-01-09 20:07:23 UTC Are you seriously trying to imply that there is literally only one thing a solo PvEr can do that will provide any kind of protection?

72
darius mclever Likes received: 72	#799 - 2014-01-09 20:08:12 UTC gascanu wrote: how about the MSi +bubble mechanic? the fact that any probing ships except t3 nullified will have no way of avoiding getting dragged in a bubble placed in the msi area of effect dosen't concern you in any way? is this working as intended? Interceptor.

Erasmus Phoenix

Avalanche.

Likes received: 130

#800 - 2014-01-09 20:09:05 UTC | Edited by: Erasmus Phoenix

Gives away the fact that you have seen them. Whether or not there turns out to be a bubble there.

EDIT: I'm not trying to suggest that's necessarily a bad gameplay mechanic, it's just that it forces the scouting to be done in one of two ships, and only one SP intensive ship if you want to be unseen. This is not exactly in the spirit of most parts of Eve.

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