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[Rubicon 1.1] Mobile Micro Jump Unit and Mobile Scan Inhibitor

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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#661 - 2014-01-09 12:38:07 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
I guess I'm not quite getting this one, maybe another cup of coffee, does this mean ships inside of a MSI will not be able to get results from outside the MSI?


Yes, I think is the change someone proposed in the thread; if you're inside you don't see on your d-scanner and probe what is outside. More balanced so.


LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#662 - 2014-01-09 12:39:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.


While I'm not in disagreement with this change I would like to ask a question to it's implementation. Doesn't this reduce the structures use overall, in a large fleet engagement it would be targeted and killed before it could really be used? It seems like a module focused on relocating a fleet during a fight, shouldn't it have enough ehp to relocate the fleet before dying?

This also raises another question I haven't seen asked or answered (Note: I haven't read this entire thread, mostly just posts surrounding the dev posts) if the MJU dies whilst one is spooling up their Jump will the jump be cancelled?

It would be my opinion that the EHP should be raised slightly, or the sig radius should be lowered to increase the lock time of the structure simply so that a fleet can use it to relocate before it dies.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#663 - 2014-01-09 12:43:25 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.


While I'm not in disagreement with this change I would like to ask a question to it's implementation. Doesn't this reduce the structures use overall, in a large fleet engagement it would be targeted and killed before it could really be used? It seems like a module focused on relocating a fleet during a fight, shouldn't it have enough ehp to relocate the fleet before dying?

This also raises another question I haven't seen asked or answered (Note: I haven't read this entire thread, mostly just posts surrounding the dev posts) if the MJU dies whilst one is spooling up their Jump will the jump be cancelled?

It would be my opinion that the EHP should be raised slightly, or the sig radius should be lowered to increase the lock time of the structure simply so that a fleet can use it to relocate before it dies.



Because otherwise, would be impossible to avoid escaping from any solo PVPer. Before that change, solo PVP was being relegated to scram+ blasters users only. The change is great and solve most of the problems.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#664 - 2014-01-09 12:48:34 UTC
how about the MSi +bubble mechanic?

the fact that any probing ships except t3 nullified will have no way of avoiding getting dragged in a bubble placed in the msi area of effect dosen't concern you in any way? is this working as intended?
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#665 - 2014-01-09 12:50:02 UTC
Also I think a large fleet would deploy more than one, having a chance to quickly target and destory them or part of them, having only part of the fleet succesfully using and so on could even work in adding more dynamic variables to these engagments.
LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#666 - 2014-01-09 12:55:07 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Because otherwise, would be impossible to avoid escaping from any solo PVPer. Before that change, solo PVP was being relegated to scram+ blasters users only. The change is great and solve most of the problems.


Ships already using MJDs do this to solo pvpers already. I do also solo pvp myself occasionally, so I would advocate for any change to improve solo pvp. Though I feel that the 1min activation timer may have done a lot to solve this problem already. I can see personally a few ways around the problem of a person dropping these to gtfo when I don't have a scram. But also I have many doubts of everyone bringing these around in their cargos everywhere, so I don't feel it would impact solo pvp too heavily at all in the way you make it sound.

Namely as this module is focused on relocating entire fleets, I feel that it should be focused on as such and not negated for use in such an enviroment by making it impossible to use before it dies. Personally I believe one could solve both problems if you made the module in a way that armor/shield logi could repair it enough to make it survive under fire long enough to jump then also keep the ehp low to allow solo pvpers to kill it. A way I see this being possible would be to set all resistances to 0 and give it a lot of regular hp, this would make the task of logi keeping it alive forever impossible, but keeping it alive long enough to jump would be possible.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#667 - 2014-01-09 12:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
LT Alter wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Because otherwise, would be impossible to avoid escaping from any solo PVPer. Before that change, solo PVP was being relegated to scram+ blasters users only. The change is great and solve most of the problems.


Ships already using MJDs do this to solo pvpers already. I do also solo pvp myself occasionally, so I would advocate for any change to improve solo pvp. Though I feel that the 1min activation timer may have done a lot to solve this problem already. I can see personally a few ways around the problem of a person dropping these to gtfo when I don't have a scram. But also I have many doubts of everyone bringing these around in their cargos everywhere, so I don't feel it would impact solo pvp too heavily at all in the way you make it sound.

Namely as this module is focused on relocating entire fleets, I feel that it should be focused on as such and not negated for use in such an enviroment by making it impossible to use before it dies. Personally I believe one could solve both problems if you made the module in a way that armor/shield logi could repair it enough to make it survive under fire long enough to jump then also keep the ehp low to allow solo pvpers to kill it. A way I see this being possible would be to set all resistances to 0 and give it a lot of regular hp, this would make the task of logi keeping it alive forever impossible, but keeping it alive long enough to jump would be possible.



Difference, MJD are restricted to battleships nowadays. And the ship must sacrifice a mid slot.


With this module. Any chance of tackling something alone would be gone. You just need s smartbomb and one of these to be 100% free.

No improvment on one gameplay style can be at price of completely removing other style.

Also you are wrong, it is not made to move entire fleets, since no 2 person can use it at same time.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#668 - 2014-01-09 12:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Theon Severasse
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ok everyone, here is our first round of changes since the beginning of public feedback. These are some quite large changes but we think the end result is a much stronger design.

Mobile Micro Jump Unit

We're cutting the EHP of the structure by 80%, to 5000hp.
We're increasing the time that the MJU takes to activate to 1 minute.
We're increasing the range at which the MJU can be used to 5000m.
We're increasing the minimum range from other MJU structures to 10km.
We're disabling the ability to jump while cloaked.

Mobile Scan Inhibitor

Ships inside the area of a MSI's effect will have their own directional scanner and probe results disabled.
We're adding a minimum distance of 75km from wormholes.
We're reducing the sensor strength of the structure to 5 and increasing the signature radius to 500. Go ahead and apply as many projected ECCM to that as you want.
We're increasing the build cost to ~15m isk.
We're decreasing the structure's lifetime in space to 1 hour.
Minimum distance to another MSI is now 100km.
We're increasing the volume of the structure to 100m3.


I'll be updating the OP momentarily.


Major problems:

  • Both can still be anchored inside FW plexes
  • Bubbles can still be anchored inside or near to MSI, meaning the only way to safely check it is to use a nullified ship (likely a T3)




Now both of these have relatively easy fixes. You don't allow them to be anchored inside FW plexes, although really the major concern is the MSI (that isn't to say that the MMJU isn't a problem though), since as it stands the only way to gain intel on what would be inside would be to facecheck it, hardly a decent way of gaining intel.

As for the bubbles, I would say make it so it can't be anchored within the radius of the bubble effect (of a T2 Large). Now obviously people who have a bit of common sense are thinking "But Theon, surely they can just anchor the bubble in front of/behind the MSI!", which is true, but at the very least you are going to know that you are warping into a bubble trap, in the same way that you do now. Again I reiterate, facechecking is not a good way of gathering intel, and requiring a player to have particular character skills and be in a particular ship is not a good idea.



The EHP changes to the MMJU pretty much solve the problem of brawlers vs kiters, but only if they are stopped from being used in FW plexes. A brawler that is already set up in a plex already gains one advantage over any kiters that are coming in to fight him in that he can sit at the warp in point and be ready to scram them. A skilled kiter may be able to evade that scram, in which case the brawler will have to use player skill in order to regain that scram, however with an MMJU then they can already have one anchored next to them, which means that if they do miss the scram then they can just leave the fight after twelve seconds (a time where it would be impossible for a kiter to kill the MMJU).


Those two changes, coupled with the ones that you have already posted should fix the main problems that these could cause (well, most of them anyway), although to be honest I would also prefer the MSI to have a massive radius reduction (down to about 10km). I am also not covering the fact that the MMJU comes with no real penalty to those using them. Maybe using one should add an ECM like effect to the person who used it for a minute?
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#669 - 2014-01-09 13:02:24 UTC
Quote:
As for the bubbles, I would say make it so it can't be anchored within the radius of the bubble effect (of a T2 Large). Now obviously people who have a bit of common sense are thinking "But Theon, surely they can just anchor the bubble in front of/behind the MSI!", which is true, but at the very least you are going to know that you are warping into a bubble trap, in the same way that you do now. Again I reiterate, facechecking is not a good way of gathering intel, and requiring a player to have particular character skills and be in a particular ship is not a good idea.


how about dictor bubbles?
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#670 - 2014-01-09 13:03:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Because otherwise, would be impossible to avoid escaping from any solo PVPer. Before that change, solo PVP was being relegated to scram+ blasters users only. The change is great and solve most of the problems.


Ships already using MJDs do this to solo pvpers already. I do also solo pvp myself occasionally, so I would advocate for any change to improve solo pvp. Though I feel that the 1min activation timer may have done a lot to solve this problem already. I can see personally a few ways around the problem of a person dropping these to gtfo when I don't have a scram. But also I have many doubts of everyone bringing these around in their cargos everywhere, so I don't feel it would impact solo pvp too heavily at all in the way you make it sound.

Namely as this module is focused on relocating entire fleets, I feel that it should be focused on as such and not negated for use in such an enviroment by making it impossible to use before it dies. Personally I believe one could solve both problems if you made the module in a way that armor/shield logi could repair it enough to make it survive under fire long enough to jump then also keep the ehp low to allow solo pvpers to kill it. A way I see this being possible would be to set all resistances to 0 and give it a lot of regular hp, this would make the task of logi keeping it alive forever impossible, but keeping it alive long enough to jump would be possible.



Difference, MJD are restricted to battleships nowadays. And the ship must sacrifice a mid slot.


With this module. Any chance of tackling something alone would be gone. You just need s smartbomb and one of these to be 100% free.

No improvment on one gameplay style can be at price of completely removing other style.

Also you are wrong, it is not made to move entire fleets, since no 2 person can use it at same time.


As long as the person that you are trying to kite starts to anchor it while you are tackling them, then you can kill it. A slicer for example can do it within 30 seconds. That said, if it is a fleet interceptor trying to tackle someone, then no they would not be able to keep the person tackled without a scram.
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#671 - 2014-01-09 13:05:23 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Quote:
As for the bubbles, I would say make it so it can't be anchored within the radius of the bubble effect (of a T2 Large). Now obviously people who have a bit of common sense are thinking "But Theon, surely they can just anchor the bubble in front of/behind the MSI!", which is true, but at the very least you are going to know that you are warping into a bubble trap, in the same way that you do now. Again I reiterate, facechecking is not a good way of gathering intel, and requiring a player to have particular character skills and be in a particular ship is not a good idea.


how about dictor bubbles?


Forgot about them. Personally I would say that if a dictor or hictor uses it's bubble then the MSI should become disabled until that bubble is either taken down or expires. Hictors could obviously still use focused points without disabling the effect.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#672 - 2014-01-09 13:06:04 UTC
Theon Severasse wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Because otherwise, would be impossible to avoid escaping from any solo PVPer. Before that change, solo PVP was being relegated to scram+ blasters users only. The change is great and solve most of the problems.


Ships already using MJDs do this to solo pvpers already. I do also solo pvp myself occasionally, so I would advocate for any change to improve solo pvp. Though I feel that the 1min activation timer may have done a lot to solve this problem already. I can see personally a few ways around the problem of a person dropping these to gtfo when I don't have a scram. But also I have many doubts of everyone bringing these around in their cargos everywhere, so I don't feel it would impact solo pvp too heavily at all in the way you make it sound.

Namely as this module is focused on relocating entire fleets, I feel that it should be focused on as such and not negated for use in such an enviroment by making it impossible to use before it dies. Personally I believe one could solve both problems if you made the module in a way that armor/shield logi could repair it enough to make it survive under fire long enough to jump then also keep the ehp low to allow solo pvpers to kill it. A way I see this being possible would be to set all resistances to 0 and give it a lot of regular hp, this would make the task of logi keeping it alive forever impossible, but keeping it alive long enough to jump would be possible.



Difference, MJD are restricted to battleships nowadays. And the ship must sacrifice a mid slot.


With this module. Any chance of tackling something alone would be gone. You just need s smartbomb and one of these to be 100% free.

No improvment on one gameplay style can be at price of completely removing other style.

Also you are wrong, it is not made to move entire fleets, since no 2 person can use it at same time.


As long as the person that you are trying to kite starts to anchor it while you are tackling them, then you can kill it. A slicer for example can do it within 30 seconds. That said, if it is a fleet interceptor trying to tackle someone, then no they would not be able to keep the person tackled without a scram.



NOW they can do it in 30 seconds. Before the change nope.. SPECIALLY since you can repair the structure while its being attacked.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#673 - 2014-01-09 13:12:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Theon Severasse wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Because otherwise, would be impossible to avoid escaping from any solo PVPer. Before that change, solo PVP was being relegated to scram+ blasters users only. The change is great and solve most of the problems.


Ships already using MJDs do this to solo pvpers already. I do also solo pvp myself occasionally, so I would advocate for any change to improve solo pvp. Though I feel that the 1min activation timer may have done a lot to solve this problem already. I can see personally a few ways around the problem of a person dropping these to gtfo when I don't have a scram. But also I have many doubts of everyone bringing these around in their cargos everywhere, so I don't feel it would impact solo pvp too heavily at all in the way you make it sound.

Namely as this module is focused on relocating entire fleets, I feel that it should be focused on as such and not negated for use in such an enviroment by making it impossible to use before it dies. Personally I believe one could solve both problems if you made the module in a way that armor/shield logi could repair it enough to make it survive under fire long enough to jump then also keep the ehp low to allow solo pvpers to kill it. A way I see this being possible would be to set all resistances to 0 and give it a lot of regular hp, this would make the task of logi keeping it alive forever impossible, but keeping it alive long enough to jump would be possible.



Difference, MJD are restricted to battleships nowadays. And the ship must sacrifice a mid slot.


With this module. Any chance of tackling something alone would be gone. You just need s smartbomb and one of these to be 100% free.

No improvment on one gameplay style can be at price of completely removing other style.

Also you are wrong, it is not made to move entire fleets, since no 2 person can use it at same time.


As long as the person that you are trying to kite starts to anchor it while you are tackling them, then you can kill it. A slicer for example can do it within 30 seconds. That said, if it is a fleet interceptor trying to tackle someone, then no they would not be able to keep the person tackled without a scram.



NOW they can do it in 30 seconds. Before the change nope.. SPECIALLY since you can repair the structure while its being attacked.


Oh of course, but how often do solo brawlers carry remote hull repairers with them? :P
Nicen Jehr
Subsidy H.R.S.
Xagenic Freymvork
#674 - 2014-01-09 13:13:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicen Jehr
I think the one minute minute activation on the MJU is too long.

The coolest aspect of these, to me, would be using them for fast travel and tactical repositioning. But with such a long delay AND frigate EHP these will seem gimped. Also, sitting in space for one minute happens all the time, but it feels a lot more boring when a game mechanic requires it.

I would like to see the activation time reduced to 30 or 40 seconds.

Oh, also, scrams (but not long points) should prevent ships from jumping with MJU.

Little Things to improve ≡⋁≡ | My Little Things posts
MisterAl tt1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#675 - 2014-01-09 13:19:11 UTC
The proposed updates to the MSI don't deal with a problem of carebears farming a wormhole site and you don't even know it before you scan it down (versus 1 click on d-scan now). Once again - upon opening the hole you have very little time to catch the ratting fleet before it escapes. Usuallyyou are very pressed for time with last-minute preparation for your fleet. Price is not a problem, when a fleet at risk can cost more then 20bil.

Nor FW problems are covered.

Maybe deny anchoring those within 75km of any signature? So that they are used only in fleet fights and other more unpredictable situations.
Theon Severasse
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#676 - 2014-01-09 13:19:33 UTC
One problem that I just thought of is that currently when a scout goes to get intel on a fleet, they will typically use a Dscan analyser in order to pass that information to the rest of the fleet. Since there is no way to copy what is in the overview (that I know of), it will make passing intel on what is inside the MSI very difficult.

I don't think anybody wants to have to listen to a scout as he lists off every single ship in a 40 man gang :P
LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#677 - 2014-01-09 13:20:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Difference, MJD are restricted to battleships nowadays. And the ship must sacrifice a mid slot.


With this module. Any chance of tackling something alone would be gone. You just need s smartbomb and one of these to be 100% free.

No improvment on one gameplay style can be at price of completely removing other style.

Also you are wrong, it is not made to move entire fleets, since no 2 person can use it at same time.


I was not aware as to the only 1 person at a time using it, that fact is not stated anywhere in the OP as far as I can see. Though in that setting is where it would make the most sense to me. Now anyway, as to your statement "No improvement on one gameplay style can com at the pirce of completely removing other style" I would like to say, do not change my words into a backwards interpretation that can only be made by one who is completely blind to that of anyone's perspective but that of his own. I in no way said as such, and in fact you are drastically over assuming the modules effect on your style of play. Your statement is reminiscent of that of those screaming doomsday is coming.

Now, as to your statement of a smartbomb and one of those to be 100% safe I have no clue what you are saying, unless you are saying that all solo pvpers fly frigates that can be killed by a smartbomb so as such cannot get close enough to scram said target without dying then I say you are stupid as a) not all solo pvpers fly frigates b) all you have to do is spend your 1 minute time of them anchoring the structure is to bump them out of range to use it or kill them in your requisite 1minute and 20 seconds before they could use the thing in the first place. and c) Not many of your targets will be bringing this module with them everywhere.

Now, if this module is only 1 person at a time to be used than nearly all the places I thought to use it are impossible. As such this module will not be on my shopping list anytime soon. I was entirely wrong because I haven't done much research at all on the module. Now here is where I take my leave from this forum thread as I no longer have use for these structures. Ta Ta.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#678 - 2014-01-09 13:23:07 UTC
Theon Severasse wrote:


Oh of course, but how often do solo brawlers carry remote hull repairers with them? :P



would you not carry a flight of repair drones in a dominix with that new deployable available? ;)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#679 - 2014-01-09 13:28:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
LT Alter wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Difference, MJD are restricted to battleships nowadays. And the ship must sacrifice a mid slot.


With this module. Any chance of tackling something alone would be gone. You just need s smartbomb and one of these to be 100% free.

No improvment on one gameplay style can be at price of completely removing other style.

Also you are wrong, it is not made to move entire fleets, since no 2 person can use it at same time.


I was not aware as to the only 1 person at a time using it, that fact is not stated anywhere in the OP as far as I can see. Though in that setting is where it would make the most sense to me. Now anyway, as to your statement "No improvement on one gameplay style can com at the pirce of completely removing other style" I would like to say, do not change my words into a backwards interpretation that can only be made by one who is completely blind to that of anyone's perspective but that of his own. I in no way said as such, and in fact you are drastically over assuming the modules effect on your style of play. Your statement is reminiscent of that of those screaming doomsday is coming.

Now, as to your statement of a smartbomb and one of those to be 100% safe I have no clue what you are saying, unless you are saying that all solo pvpers fly frigates that can be killed by a smartbomb so as such cannot get close enough to scram said target without dying then I say you are stupid as a) not all solo pvpers fly frigates b) all you have to do is spend your 1 minute time of them anchoring the structure is to bump them out of range to use it or kill them in your requisite 1minute and 20 seconds before they could use the thing in the first place. and c) Not many of your targets will be bringing this module with them everywhere.

Now, if this module is only 1 person at a time to be used than nearly all the places I thought to use it are impossible. As such this module will not be on my shopping list anytime soon. I was entirely wrong because I haven't done much research at all on the module. Now here is where I take my leave from this forum thread as I no longer have use for these structures. Ta Ta.



The only 1 at a time was posted by several peopel that tested it. True is not in the official data, might or maight not be changed.

Also your time idea is wrong. Before the changes was 20 sec to deploy. In 20 seconds you could NOT bumb a freighter away in a cruiser. Before thsoe changes how in hell would a curse be able to kill a freighter before it warps off? Or even a T2 hauler? Escaping was too easy agaisnt anythign but scrambler + blaster ships.

I am not doomsaying. THe MJD made already a HUGE impact on my play style, making almost impossible to hunt solo and be able to catch battleships AND smaller ships. You need to fit to do ONE or the other. And since gettign into scram range of ceratin blaster ships is suicidal for a cruiser sized hull is eliminated a LOT of possible activities.


THE new deployable, without the changes would simply extend the same situation to all ships. Effectively making a very bad idea to try hunt things alone, specially in nano kiting ships.

It would simply crush a gameplay style .. but with the changes from Fozie, you can use it to prepare an advantage in battlefield. But cannot use it as a free of jail card so easily.


And do not DARE to call me idiot for thinking everyone fly frigates when solo. We use EXCLUSIVELY cruiser sized hulls. So inform yourself a bit before making such statements.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#680 - 2014-01-09 13:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Theon Severasse wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Quote:
As for the bubbles, I would say make it so it can't be anchored within the radius of the bubble effect (of a T2 Large). Now obviously people who have a bit of common sense are thinking "But Theon, surely they can just anchor the bubble in front of/behind the MSI!", which is true, but at the very least you are going to know that you are warping into a bubble trap, in the same way that you do now. Again I reiterate, facechecking is not a good way of gathering intel, and requiring a player to have particular character skills and be in a particular ship is not a good idea.


how about dictor bubbles?


Forgot about them. Personally I would say that if a dictor or hictor uses it's bubble then the MSI should become disabled until that bubble is either taken down or expires. Hictors could obviously still use focused points without disabling the effect.

If a camp decides to put a Hitor in one, that should be fine, as it is a manned ship and not just a deployable structure.
But I agree with not being able to put a deployable bubble inside of one, while being reduced in the ability due to the now 1hr life span, it still will be used as a stall tactic.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.