Ships & Modules

That makes your assertions even more suspect. Lets see those fits?



You were comparing minmatar to amarr. I thought the point was to disprove the idea minmatar has inherently better platforms for their weapons. The sac is: much slower, will not apply it's dps "perfectly," at all (do you have any experience with HAMs?), and to call the vaga "faster," is like calling the titanic "bigger," than a tug-boat. The difference is night and day. The sac is slow as hell and it's "options," in the mids are not options, they're a demand for webs/tp to hopefully apply a small portion of it's HAM dps (good luck snaring a vaga in your web). I'll take extreme falloff over HAMs any night of the week.

Not even a question, the vaga is better by a land-slide.



Right, i'm sure people just fly canes because they look cool? I would argue the drake is substantially better than the harb aswell. Are you going to dispute my point or try and re-direct this into a drake discussion?

The temptest doesn't have to take that fight and if it ends up in it, it has more than enough time to get out.



Please tell me you don't think medium ACs have less applied dps than HAMs.



Sac in a fleet? That's rich.



So you aren't going to try and prove the point huh?



Cool story.

It's funny people actually respond to the "Nerf XXXX" threads... It's just a troll to get everyone that uses XXXX to rush to defend the item because they think CCP actually reads these forms. Just ignore them and they will go away.

Another fail whine thread.

And just to clear things up nerfing projectiles start by nerfing lazors and if that was not the case so many years it will not happen now ,so stop being idiot and cry to buff what ever fail race you are instead of calling for nerfs of weapons system that does work you butt hurted noob.

lol - where do you fly usually?

If the geddon fits a short scram, the 'pest is screwed. If it doesn't, then it still has a moderate shot at killing the 'pest before it gets out of point range, or driving the tempest off. And yes, I never tried to disprove that Tempests have better disengagement opportunities than Amarr ships, just that Amarr ships are superior to Minmatar in a straight up fight.



There are plenty of bad Vaga pilots out there who do little but hit "orbit" and wonder why stuff manages to get close to them.

I was looking at some unfitted, moving cruiser, and comparing the DPS it takes at 20km from a Vaga's 220s to the DPS it takes from a sac's HAMs. Vaga only did about ~70 more DPS. If the Vaga gets closer to apply that DPS well, it gets pinned down and killed. Meanwhile, if the Sac gets close, it can web, TP, and hit for full damage.



Please tell me about your last fleet op where you brought a shield Vaga to a fleet of Harbies, Megas, Geddons, Guardians, or just about anything not Minmatar? Sac is effectively a HAM Drake with an armor tank. There's no reason not to use it for fleets.



I already made my case as to why they're well balanced. The Hurricane is faster, yes, but the Harb gets more ehp, slightly more dps, and more optimal. I honestly don't know why there are more hurricane pilots, hell, probably everyone just went "omg minmatar ships are useful again!" after Dominion, so everyone wanted to fly Hurricanes instead of Harbs for a change. You can argue all you want as to why there are more hurricanes than harbs, but numbers and facts don't lie.



Accusing ME of not giving a straight answer? Are you out of your mind? My first post today was all about how Amarr hulls are just as good, or better. YOU are the one who has spent the whole day responding to me with cryptic, "I'm good enough to not have to prove anything to you," trollish, and ignorant posts. Have you been reading any of my last few posts?

I was never trying to dispute the fact that Minmatar ships are more versatile than Amarr ships. I was disputing the fact that Amarr ships are, while less versatile than Minmatar, simply better at their specialized roles.

Here, let me post it again for you:

Tempest: 890 base DPS, fights in falloff, rapidly loses that DPS as distance increases. More mids, slightly faster.
Armageddon: 1200 base DPS, can apply it fully to 30+km, has about 10k more EHP.

Vagabond: 516 base DPS (will be applying around 325 of that at 20km in fallof,) 36k ehp. Faster.
Zealot: 450 DPS, does full dps in optimal, 57k ehp. Cap injected.

Armor AC 'Cane: 603 DPS, 70k EHP, dual neuts, has an optimal of only 1.4km. Slightly faster.
Armor pulse Harby: 620 DPS, 76k EHP, single neut, has an optimal of 7km, cap injected.

I could expand this list and include more ships, but the above is sufficient to show that Amarr hulls are just as good or better than Minmatar in a straight up fight. Please, show me an FC which would rather have an armor Muninn over a Zealot in his AHAC fleet, a Maelstrom over an Abaddon in his BS fleet, a Bellicose over an Arbi in his cruiser fleet, a Tempest over a Geddon in his BS fleet.

The fact is, Amarr ships are superior to Minmatar ships at nearly everything that isn't about disengaging or versatility. Nearly any Amarr ship vs. a Minmatar ship, at any range, will result in the Minmatar ship either dying or disengaging.

Armor Harb vs. Armor Cane? Very close fight, but I'd wager on the Harb.
Armor Harb vs. Nanocane? Nanocane runs away, or dies if the harb gets close.
Sac vs. Vaga? Vaga runs away or dies.
Zealot vs. Muninn? Muninn dies.
Arbi vs. Bellicose? Bellicose dies.
'Geddon vs. Tempest? Tempest dies if armor, Tempest runs or dies if shield.

A "strait up fight," is a bogus premise. Nobody starts a fight that they can't potentially win. The ability to pick battles and disengage from a loosing scenario is every bit as important as the battle itself.



You specifically brough up sac as a fleet ship. I pointed out the obvious: it is in no way a fleet ship. It's not. Nor is it even an effective gang ship. It's built to solo and local armor tank. If it's effectively a drake then it's effectively way over-priced and sub-par by comparison. There is no reason TO use it.



You put two short (biased) summaries of two fits together and called it balanced. Color me skeptical, but I don't think that was enough to make the claim you did. Neither is the short-hand you displayed there. Come up with all the creative excuses you like (that plea to pre-buff minmatar nostalgia was especially weak), but there is most certainly a correlation between the variety of effective hurricane fits and its popularity.



I'm just calling you on your bullshit. I probably would have ignored the first post I quoted, but your numbers didn't add up. After that, you went on a petulant tantrum and well, i've been amused enough to play along.



You're going to have to explain the concept of a "strait up fight," to me. I'm not one to hang around and die in honorable combat when given the option to bail and I don't know many FCs who would make that choice either. Do you regularly jump into dozens of bubbles or what?

I know a lot of muninn fans around here, not so many zealots these days. Maelstrom fleets might welp when they don't grossly outnumber hellcats, but I mentioned the abaddon early on as a superior vessel. I'm having a hard time taking your bellicose vs. arby thing seriously since cruisers in general are laughable, and you happen to pick the best amarr cruiser to pit against the worst minmatar one (how about arby and rupture or omen and bellicose). I don't remember the last time I did a cruiser gang that wasn't rupture alpha anyhow. Temptest vs. geddon would be fun to watch, haven't seen that in a while, but i'd imagine it's similar to the mael/baddon scenario except easier to alpha geddons.

Of course if we argue from the standpoint of big hellcat fleets, amarr look awsome (rightly so) every time. I'm not saying scorch on abaddons isn't OP, but minmatar have an edge in almost every other (logical) scenario because they can dictate range, wether or not the encounter even takes place, and have superior flexibility in their loadouts. And all of that comes before you consider projectiles use no cap and can hit any resistance hole that is presented.

Buffer Myrm can go toe to toe with an armor cane all day (I've been on either side of that one). Shield/nano myrm has a bigger tank that a similar cane, I've chased a couple off the field but lacked the speed to keep them pinned down.

Active I've never had much luck with, but a lot of that may be that I primarily fly small gangs, and it takes a lot to keep and active myrm running in the face of more than two or three BCs.

I love my Brutix, but its usually shield tanked. I think its #3 on my ships with most kills list.

Jesus christ... in the time you guys have been bitching back and forth you could have met up circle jerked around and fought each other ... the issue will always be the same. Each ship has its own niche, role, etc. There are no I win buttons in eve because for every ship there is a counter.

Personally I cannot wait for the blaster changes. Giving a minor agility bonus and better tracking including the t2 ammo revamp and the cap issues is more than enough. With perfect gunnery skills a mega can hit out to 27km with null. If you still ***** and moan and cannot understand or figure out how to put the different ammo types in your hold then don't fly gallente.

I can count about 10 times last night in a fleet op where I switched ammo pre fight depending upon composition and range.

I won't go back and do the whole quote for quote thing for this argument, but I will toss in my 2 cents:
First off, Nimrod, in order for a race to be underpowered or overpowered, it has to be notably better or notably worse than other races, at the very least, MOST of the time. If you can sit down and say "well obviously amarr are really good at x, y, and z." then you can't really argue the point that they need a buff (or that their matari counterparts need a nerf). This leads into my second point:

Amarr are brawlers. They sit there and dish out damage, having better damage projection and better EHP than their matari counterparts.

Minmatar are skirmishers. They're relatively weak in an EHP/DPS race, but make up for it with their speed and utility.

These are both by design, working as intended. You can't complain about minmatar being able to disengage at will, (which they can't really do if there's dedicated tackle, but that's another argument altogether) when the main advantage their race has is that very ability. There will always be one ship/race faster than the others, and it will always have an easier time getting away from fights that are going poorly. There is no way around this, and the tradeoffs for this utility are nothing to scoff at.