Ships & Modules

well you can only reach those ranges on range-bonused amarrian battleships which are.... 1 (apoc hulls)?

true, but then again it's true that I don't see fleets of 80km pulsepocs stomping around nullsec.

xcept CVA space, afaik, but I might be wrong here too.

I argued, with good reason, in previous posts, about the need to slightly nurf ACs.

All the arguments against an AC nurf are based on some over-inflated EFT based assumptions about what Pulse can do, the need to buff blasters - but not to AC levels, and the word scorch being thrown around like its some super crystal.

One thing has to give - either Mini ships need to get a nurf overall to fitting, speed, tank and the whole lot and they can keep their ACs (standardization = boring BUT = balance) or the weapon system needs to be nurfed in fitting, clip size, tracking, damage/falloff or whatever. I have argued that falloff and based damage are two places that the nurf should focus on, while ACs keep their fantastic tracking and damage selection. You get to do damage, but not much. you get to hit the resistance holes - but without much force.

It is not balanced as it is.

I can go through the line of reasoning and what I see as balance again, but it falls on deaf ears so I will pass for now.

As for the t3 BCs - they were designed for the Tornado, and the other races were added as an afterthought. This much is clear. And since mini are the 'in' race much like Caldari were - and since CCP is not going to take any bold action - I suspect this will last for awhile.



except you ignore versatility, damage type, tracking, inherent ship/race strengths and the many downsides and weakness' of that supposed super system. Damage projection is nice, but at the cost of all your cap, one and a half damage types, all your fittings, and mediocre tracking married to a weapons platform that is not very fast means you are basically at the mercy of your opponents.



Again, the tradeoff is that Amarr ships are gun platforms while the others are not. This is what CCP argued yeas ago in terms of ships balance. Amarr are pure gunships, Gallente are close range brawlers, Mini are the multi wepons , skirmishers (all these racees have their exceptions ofc). That is not what we have now. Mini are not supposed to have 'similar gank and tank' to Amarr. . . if thats what the balance is, then mini ships need to get slower, lose utility highs, and get standardized as a race. . .which is not what any of us want.

Other then on some very specialized occasions, when do you take an amarr ship (since gallente are never an option - its always Mini > Gallente) over a minmatar ship? The only Amarr ship I would consider is the zelot for hac fleets, and the apoc for BB fleets - outside of that - I would always fly Minmatar if I were not in pie. . . And I do on my alt in 0.0.

Ultimatly its the Jack-of-all-trades dilemma - they are usually either too strong or too weak. this is a common problem with the class in all MMOs (EQ Bards, WoW Druids and so on) - eve is no exception.

But again, I am cynical about this sort of thing since I heard it all before when caldari were being nurfed.

The problems you listed; gallente have them as well, without the advantage of having by far the best damage projection in the game.

Saying amarr ships are gun platforms is like saying they're built to kill things; it also applies to just about every other ship in the game. Hell, a DOMI gets more than half of its dps from guns. But you then go on do describe the gallente as brawlers and the minmatar as skirmishers, wtf are you comparing here? How is a blaster using brawler not a "pure gunship"? Or an arty mael, or damn near every ship in the game? Also, minmatar most certainly do not have similar tank/gank to amarr, you're insane if you think that, especially once range gets factored in (hint: 45km falloff is not as good as 45km optimal)
For bigger fleets it tends to be (looking at amarr and minmatar only) Apocs, hellcat abaddons, 1400mm arty BSs, sniper zealots/munins, and maybe the occasional cane fleet. Amarr ships are perfectly viable in larger scale combat, as well as smaller scale engagements (pulse zealots, guardians, curses are all viable in medium sized gangs). They do lose out somewhat at smaller scale engagements (like less than 5 to a side) but then that's where gallente and matari should be dominating.

Also Roosterton you quoted the wrong guy.

Only on via the stat. In reality it doesn't work like that because of how the tracking formula deals with transversal.
Essentially, it's a parallax effect.

I wouldn't call it a parallax effect so much as an implementation of radial velocity. Basically, if they have more tracking, they have more tracking regardless - but that's not the important thing most of the time. Its probably worth thinking of the tracking formula as a whole - and also, not in terms of what makes you hit, but what makes you miss. I'm going to neglect sig res vs sig rad in this discussion, but please remember it works as a multiplicative effect and that 0 x 10 bajillion = 0.

So, as long as you're in optimal, the only thing that can make you miss is the tracking component of the formula. Once you leave optimal, the falloff component can too - and IIRC it becomes generally more important to your miss chance than tracking at around falloff/2 (this assumes "realistic" situations). Thus, its improper to talk about blasters having better tracking than pulse lasers because tracking isn't the important thing: hitting the target is. And most of the time, blasters (and projectiles, to a lesser extent) are in falloff.

-Liang

Hrm! Considering the only way I can get blasters to work is by laborious premeditation and anticipation of BMs and a well-timed "warp to 0," I'm going to take you seriously.

Corporation bookmarks? What are you talking about?

Its ok, you and Lang and the 'countless other that have been saying this for YEARS' can keep putting out the fires just like the caldari fanboys did 5 years ago when it was very clearly broken then too (and I would like to say that it has not been years - the problem is quite recent - relatively speaking) and you will succeed for a time, even get everyone else nurfed a fair bit - but when the bat comes - you will have wished at least to have given my, and many others concerns some thought. Especially since I suspect you spend most of your time in a mini ships and your only amarr experience is for very specific things (then tell me - who has 7/8 years experience in Amarr, minmatar and Caldari ships - all 04 characters specialized to one race). But you can prove me wrong.



Well yah, they kill things at the cost of a whole range of other things. 'face melting' is a reference to lazers, and is an old reference. Now mind you, Amarr ships don't do that much more damage, a little more, but they do it at range, which is the advantage, but at the cost of tracking, cap, fitting, ship speed, versitility and damage types. You can easily get under an Amarr ships guns, you can burn away and warp out, they often don't have a MWD or tackle. . . I mean, I think for that range, Amarr ships actually are just one big f1 key.

I am compairing the racial roles, figure it out. Gallente, with their blasters should do the most damage at close range by far. The fact that Gallente are now going to become more agile then Mini ships (and a possible mini agil nurf may be needed) is only supporting the fact that ACs are breaking the balance, and since no one wants to just kick down the absolutly overpowered wepon system that is ACs right now, they will buff Gallente ships. So yah, racial roles are dictating these balances - not some theoretical balancing system based on equality - but based on racial roles. Go read some prime fiction or something and figure out what the racial roles are. Or ask an RPer to explain it to you.

Ok, EFT again. Tank is more then just EHP. its sig, its speed, its range, its even neuts (for everyone but ACs ofc). Gank is also not just a DPS number - its range, cap use, damage type, clip size, tracking. Real gank and tank plays out very differently in the game then it does on the test server or on EFT or some similar simulator. I see minmatar ships doing damage to someones weakest resist hole, at 45km even at falloff, while zipping around with cap and options and neuts and whatever, with a nice EM resist buffer (for T2), while I am sitting there shooting away with my theoretically amazing lazors hitting for very little damage while getting riddled down - then I scratch my head and ask - where is this supposedly amazing dps I have at amazing ranges. a poor example, but equally valid then any you give.n Falloff vs optimal is only important when you consider how much you actually apply.



I'm sorry m8, minmatar used to be considered dominat cruiser and below. Now its a clear BC and below (cry about the drake all you want, the cane is 99% of the time better), and with alpha the way it is, it has a firm place in BB warfare. Excuse me, thats most of the ships in the game. zelot and apoc maybe. Ever use a curse in any duo or more situation? Tell me how you fared - cuz 1v1 maybe, ganking maybe, but in any target rich environment, its a cap drainer at most, the drones are an afterthought. And when you start talking about logistics ships, well, QED.


I suppose that is what is so upsetting about this whole discussion. What I am saying is that there needs to be a reasonable rollback of some of the buffs that ACs got. The 9% damage buff, the TE buff, these are all reasonable things to consider taking down. But no, in your world, Amarr are somehow uber, Caldari are not a factor, Gallente just need to find a new niche that ACs occupy and will always, no matter how much you buff blasters, will occupy (because ACs are what blasters dream of being) and Mini are somehow still the underdogs. Let me be the first to tell you, Amarr are just competing because they started with their inherent and purposefully designed 'best gun system at high cost', Caldari are the missile race, and Gallente are left sucking ash. You like this because you like Minmatar. I want to go up against a Mini ship and have a chance, right now, that is simply not a real option - and its not skills.

Your other comments are irrelevant and I will not get sucked into some flame war with you. But this one is interesting.

You are now changing your tune.

The problem with Blasters is not lazers. The difference between the two and the balance between the two has been there since day 1 - which I do know because of my age and experience and having read the threads in this section for years. One of the reasons blasters suck is because ACs fill that roll better - or more appropriately - that ACs with their merits and lack of demerits - married to the highly versatile, speedy and well bonused Minmatar ships - fill the roll better.

So a buff to blasters - as I have argued - has to come on the back of a nurf to either mini ships or ACs or else these buffs as well as any subsequent ones will still be hollow. As it stands, there is very little blasters can get - other then a massive boost to their DPS - that will make them more attractive in light of all the drawbacks (which were reduced, a slight move towards standardization and away from variety = its what you wanted).

Amarr have never been the close range gank race - Mini and Gallente have always competed for that. Gallente were for a long time the dominant of the two and the Go-To choice for someone who wanted close range fun. In the past, when someone said 'I want to pvp, what race should i choise' it would have been 'Gallente and Caldari or Amarr' - today its Minmatar. The auto-reflexive response from people to respond to any thread on ACs with 'scorch this, and pulse that' is a deflection - and I am simply drawing the line and saying that its really not as it seems on EFT.

Now I have argued this point several times, from multiple angles, with you and a few others. And now you tell me that you don't care about ACs and that you just think we should wait and see?

whatever.

pretty much this. too simplify, if blasters are staying, pulse lasers and AC's have to get nerfed to make room for a third contender. if the other 2 weapon systems arent getting nerfed, then just delete blasters, and buff rails (along with drones). i prefer the latter, but i dont think too many are thrilled about it.