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Faction Warfare farming has to end - we want war instead of the Cloak & Stabs -game

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Ginger Barbarella
#161 - 2013-12-10 16:45:09 UTC
SKINE DMZ wrote:
Agreed, had a farming plexer yesterday call me a "noob loser" for trying to get a fight Lol in Faction Warfare..


Was he part of the opposing faction, or were you some non-FW loser dropping in on noob plexes to get kills?

Don't bother answering; you'll probably lie to save some epeen...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
RAW23
#162 - 2013-12-10 16:45:30 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Sure, its all numbers. Spreadsheets in space and all that.

My cloaky farmer alt sits in a Medium plex for 18 min. A WT comes to the activation gate so I cloak up. Currently if he wants to cap the plex he has to sit in the plex for the base time of the plex as well as the 18 minutes that my cloaky farmer sat there. All we are asking for is that if the person that was running the plex bails or cloaks the timer goes back to the base time of the plex.

This will reduce the impact the cloaky farmers have on the warzone without stopping them from being able to plex as well as insentivize them to stay and actually fight for the plex that they have invested 18 minutes into.

You sound as if you do not want this change. Why is that?


I'm not sure that I do object to something like that change on those grounds, although I would probably be inclined to support not a timer roll-back but independent faction timers. Bailing out should be an option (a tactical withdrawal is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare, as is skirmishing and harassment without committing to full combat) and I don't see why the enemy bringing something you can't beat should always undo all the work you have done. On the other hand, I also don't see why the work you have done should add to the burden of the opposition. Whichever side gets their independent timer to the target first would suit me. What I don't like is the idea that the defenders shouldn't actually have to cap the plex and that they should be able to just roll around driving out the opposition who are trying to do the grunt work without having to do any of the tedious stuff themselves.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#163 - 2013-12-10 16:56:41 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Sure, its all numbers. Spreadsheets in space and all that.

My cloaky farmer alt sits in a Medium plex for 18 min. A WT comes to the activation gate so I cloak up. Currently if he wants to cap the plex he has to sit in the plex for the base time of the plex as well as the 18 minutes that my cloaky farmer sat there. All we are asking for is that if the person that was running the plex bails or cloaks the timer goes back to the base time of the plex.

This will reduce the impact the cloaky farmers have on the warzone without stopping them from being able to plex as well as insentivize them to stay and actually fight for the plex that they have invested 18 minutes into.

You sound as if you do not want this change. Why is that?


I'm not sure that I do object to something like that change on those grounds, although I would probably be inclined to support not a timer roll-back but independent faction timers. Bailing out should be an option (a tactical withdrawal is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare, as is skirmishing and harassment without committing to full combat) and I don't see why the enemy bringing something you can't beat should always undo all the work you have done. On the other hand, I also don't see why the work you have done should add to the burden of the opposition. Whichever side gets their independent timer to the target first would suit me. What I don't like is the idea that the defenders shouldn't actually have to cap the plex and that they should be able to just roll around driving out the opposition who are trying to do the grunt work without having to do any of the tedious stuff themselves.


Tactical withdrawals are and will always be a valid tactic. The idea of "dual timers" is definitely an interesting one however Timer Rollbacks will get the job done. Think of it like shooting a POS to get it to reinforced. If you stop shooting it the shields go back up.

Really the idea of having the ability to dock or undock in a system being 99% controlled by spinning a button in a ship that any 2-3 week old toon can do is a bit silly, but it has worked so far, we are just interested in seeing the system improved.

JUSTK is recruiting
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#164 - 2013-12-10 16:58:27 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Roime wrote:
I'm not talking about hisec mining, mission running or null anom running. Bears can be bears, they are involved in PVE activities.

Factional Warfare plexes, however, are explicitly meant to facilitate PVP combat. Running plexes is the only way to push FW systems to vulnerable state so that the Infrastructure Hub can be attacked. It's the equivalent of reinforcing structures in null sov.



I'll wait for some quotes from CCP that "Factional Warfare plexes are explicitly meant to facilitate PvP combat". I'll wait for any quote from CCP, actually, that's contrary to the idea that FW is a mix of PvE and PvP.


Factional WAR fare is itself pretty self-explinatory. However, for the thicker ones like you:

"And so we get to the meat! Empyrean Age is about war, and war is about shooting people, so we put some thought into new ways of letting people shoot other people, preferably in the face. Metaphorically speaking, of course."

Specifically about plexes:

"In addition to the missions, we also have discrete combat sites available for your pew-pewing pleasure."

"Factional Warfare (FW) brings war to New Eden by open conflict between the four main empires of EVE. FW is designed to introduce PvP to both new and old players as well as to offer a new play option for veteran PvPers. Players participating in FW will engage in open conflict with enemies of their chosen empire."

"We really want to reward individual players that take risks and participate in PvP and conflicts, rather than promoting safe, passive incomes."

"As its name implies, Factional Warfare is supposed to be an actual bloody struggle raging between the various factions. However it currently lacks proper reasons to do so, as little matters when a system is taken. That's a fact we want to tamper with, as to encourage players to be actively helping the war effort by fighting for their faction."

"We felt the complexes had swayed too far towards a PvE activity and this is not what we wanted at all. We want to move towards a more PvP like environment while still ensuring the complexes cannot be quickly farmed."

Dev blog quotes.

FW plexes are all about PVP, this isn't even open to discussion.



.
Starbuck05
Abiding Ormolus
#165 - 2013-12-10 17:11:43 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Tzenick wrote:
We either have a couple people serious about trolling and derailing a thread started to facilitate constructive ideas for the betterment of FW or some people truly fear losing their easy mode ISK source. Lets be realistic here, we aren't discussing new players trying to make some start-up ISK and anyone who implies otherwise IS trolling or just oblivious. The problem we are fighting here is semi-afk plex alts impacting the warzones with as absolutely little risk as possible. I have lost count of the number of conversations I have had with these people, bragging about running incursions, fleeting up, or hi-sec mining on their mains while they make easy ISK.

Keep in mind that I don't have any issue with people making ISK, I do in fact believe people making ISK keeps things active in the warzone with plenty of ships to explode. I am also quite happy that there is a low barrier to entry into FW, for those wanting to explore the option. The problem is almost never the person who won't fight, although there are some of those and they are frustrating in another aspect. That is their choice to actively evade fighting and probing while trying to capture a complex in a defended system. No complaints there, can't make them fight, oh well we deal with it. Simple changes like timer rollbacks and rats that can tank reasonable DPS won't make it any harder for those individuals to claim a complex. They will however, and I am sure this is what is causing the arguments, make that condor fit some DPS mods in the lows and maybe use that CPU for it as well ( instead of a cloak). Why such a problem with that? They can still go run defensive complexes in their cloaked and stabbed ships. They would no longer have as large of an impact in a system they have no interest in doing anything but farming in.

Something does ultimately need to be done to limit this type of activity. I and my faction warfare allies attempt to hold the sovereignty of our home systems in the spirit of the design for little to no reward. We know how to counter it, we are here to tell CCP that it is creating serious issues that will impact the system and the game in general if we are forced to counter it in it's current iteration, in perpetuity. It has already done so with many people tiring of it and asking for changes almost immediately with more and more doing the same all the time. If all you have to say is "Oh its all about you" and "You just want to farm noobs" then you bring nothing constructive to the conversation. Try to be big boys and girls, tough as it may be, and add something to help resolve the issue rather than the simplistic trolling.


The problem is that no one has actually made a compelling case that establishes that there is a real problem. All we have heard is that people doing this stuff means that you guys have to actually cap plexes when you don't want to do so. Farmers can be killed or driven off without much difficulty. You can hold your plexes against them without much difficulty. Where is the problem? Well, the problem is that you don't want to do the necessary things, not that you can't.

As I see it, the current issue is not the mechanics, it's that you are faced at the moment with an overwhelming numerical superiority. Don't get me wrong - that absolutely sucks. But it does not mean that the mechanics you identify are broken. You are trying to hold the line against much higher numbers and that means you have to work much harder to do so if you want to maintain control. That is leading to burnout among some players who just don't enjoy doing what is needed to counter the enemy's tactics.

Now, there might be an argument to be had about balancing things when faced with a major numerical imbalance on one side of the war but that would be a different discussion. The topics that have been picked up on here, i.e. stabbed or cloaky farmers, already have direct counters and what is being argued for is a change in the rules so that you don't have to counter them because you don't enjoy doing so. If you frame the real issue honestly and acknowledge that what you object to is being swarmed by a numerically superior force and that you don't think that should be possible in the FW environment then there is the chance for a decent conversation. But currently what are being trotted out are a load of canards backed up by misleading statements.



Then how about you join fw and try to solve this problem using your solutions , if you think we are just lazy, and lets see if you return back to this thread after 2 days burnt out from chasing the stabbed chinese farmers around.. because im tired of reading so many contradictory posts from people not in fw and from people who have no ideea what its really like..

Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#166 - 2013-12-10 17:29:51 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
So, basically, OP is raging at the fact that he can't catch those nasty, stabbed farmers? And he's saying that QCATS has never --- NEVER--- done any farming (and doesn't to this day)? Or is he saying that he wants a nice place to do so without bothering with anyone bugging his farming?

Goonies are so much better at this trolling; QCATS really needs to learn how to do it from them.


Why are you speaking in third person, when you can address me directly?

No, I'm asking for a fix to FW so that we aren't forced to chase stabbed cloaky farmers.

Please quote the part where I said that QCATS has never NEVER farmed,

Also quote the part where I wanted a nice place to farm in peace.

You do sound like a ******** little troll, but you can get a second chance.

.
Anslo
Scope Works
#167 - 2013-12-10 17:37:09 UTC
Changes like you proposed would raise the barrier of entry for actual new subscribers, making them potentially not want to participate.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#168 - 2013-12-10 17:42:58 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Changes like you proposed would raise the barrier of entry for actual new subscribers, making them potentially not want to participate.


I listed the most common suggestions that people have brought up during the years. None of them are my ideas.

I personally support only timer rollbacks to help remedy the farming issue. I don't think this affects new player participation in FW PVP in any way, and it would be interesting to hear your reasoning why this would happen.

.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#169 - 2013-12-10 17:46:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Roime wrote:
Factional WAR fare is itself pretty self-explinatory. However, for the thicker ones like you:


Awww well aren't you an angry little boy. Show me where the WCS touched you.

Also nothing you've quoted states that "FW plexes are 'explicitly' meant to facilitate PvP". In fact, 90% of what you quoted doesn't even references complexes. Sorry little dude - reading is hard, right? Try again - FW is a mix of PvP. Plexes moved "too far towards PvE - we want more PvP" =! "complexes are explicitly meant to facilitate PvP". They're a mix of both, obviously - there's an NPC you have to kill and you get an LP reward right? PvE. You can also fight over plexes, right? PvP. They're a mix of both and nowhere, ever, did CCP state "FW plexes are only for PvP."

Roime wrote:
FW plexes are all about PVP, this isn't even open to discussion.


Yeah well, it is. And you just got smacked, son.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#170 - 2013-12-10 17:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
People whining that they want "timer rollbacks" - this mechanic already exists, it's called defensive plexing.

Really the entire "rollback" argument boils down to this: a spirit of spitefulness because some people are mad that someone else refused to engage in Space Bushido.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#171 - 2013-12-10 17:54:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Roime wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
So, basically, OP is raging at the fact that he can't catch those nasty, stabbed farmers? And he's saying that QCATS has never --- NEVER--- done any farming (and doesn't to this day)? Or is he saying that he wants a nice place to do so without bothering with anyone bugging his farming?

Goonies are so much better at this trolling; QCATS really needs to learn how to do it from them.


Why are you speaking in third person, when you can address me directly?

No, I'm asking for a fix to FW so that we aren't forced to chase stabbed cloaky farmers.

Please quote the part where I said that QCATS has never NEVER farmed,

Also quote the part where I wanted a nice place to farm in peace.

You do sound like a ******** little troll, but you can get a second chance.



The butthurt is strong with this one.

QQCats?

CCP - please stop forcing QQCats to chase cloaky stabbed farmers. This is a sandbox for Christ's sake!

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Dread Delgarth
Flames Of Chaos
Great Wildlands Conservation Society
#172 - 2013-12-10 18:06:59 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Sure, its all numbers. Spreadsheets in space and all that.

My cloaky farmer alt sits in a Medium plex for 18 min. A WT comes to the activation gate so I cloak up. Currently if he wants to cap the plex he has to sit in the plex for the base time of the plex as well as the 18 minutes that my cloaky farmer sat there. All we are asking for is that if the person that was running the plex bails or cloaks the timer goes back to the base time of the plex.

This will reduce the impact the cloaky farmers have on the warzone without stopping them from being able to plex as well as insentivize them to stay and actually fight for the plex that they have invested 18 minutes into.

You sound as if you do not want this change. Why is that?


I'm not sure that I do object to something like that change on those grounds, although I would probably be inclined to support not a timer roll-back but independent faction timers. Bailing out should be an option (a tactical withdrawal is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare, as is skirmishing and harassment without committing to full combat) and I don't see why the enemy bringing something you can't beat should always undo all the work you have done. On the other hand, I also don't see why the work you have done should add to the burden of the opposition. Whichever side gets their independent timer to the target first would suit me. What I don't like is the idea that the defenders shouldn't actually have to cap the plex and that they should be able to just roll around driving out the opposition who are trying to do the grunt work without having to do any of the tedious stuff themselves.


Well I'd prefer timer resets, but having independent faction timers as you suggest would be far better then the current system, especially if they scrapped the tier system and just had a set payout across the board for capturing a plex.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#173 - 2013-12-10 18:07:58 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
People whining that they want "timer rollbacks" - this mechanic already exists, it's called defensive plexing.

Really the entire "rollback" argument boils down to this: a spirit of spitefulness because some people are mad that someone else refused to engage in Space Bushido.


I do not support timer rollbacks because of spitefulness. I support it because the impact that farmers have in the warzone is out of proportion from the impact I think they should have.

Do you think that the current impact that farmers (specifically cloaky/warp away farmers) have on warzone control (which includes system control) is in line with where it should be? If so, we'll just have to disagree. Timer rollbacks won't end farming LP in the FW zone, it will just slightly reduce the impact that these type of tactics can have on System Control and Warzone Control in general.

JUSTK is recruiting
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#174 - 2013-12-10 18:08:22 UTC
Xuixien wrote:


CCP - please stop forcing QQCats to chase cloaky stabbed farmers. This is a sandbox for Christ's sake!


Happy that you agree with us <3

.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#175 - 2013-12-10 18:12:31 UTC
Roime wrote:
Xuixien wrote:


CCP - please stop forcing QQCats to chase cloaky stabbed farmers. This is a sandbox for Christ's sake!


Happy that you agree with us <3



Actually I'm making a mockery of everything you say because you're both whiny and clearly narrow minded. Cool

I guess the sarcasm went over your head! Roll

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#176 - 2013-12-10 18:13:04 UTC
Xuixien wrote:


Yeah well, it is. And you just got smacked, son.


I'm sorry little miss but you asked for CCP quotes, and got served. Case closed baby, you can show a CCP quote that proves they intended plexes to be safe PVE with high end payouts that affects WZ control, and maybe then we can discuss this again with you.

Sweet dreams :)

.
Riksma
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2013-12-10 18:17:36 UTC
I agree that cloaked stabbed farmers are not interesting, and their actions do affect the warzone in a 'not good' way, but...

"PvP" is more than just that one thing that you like doing, it's not just the cycling of weapons. It's escape as well as explosions, trade as well as trolling, ganks and 'gudfights'. They all have their place and their adherents. I'm just a bad alt hauler, but the best case of 'pvp shakes' I ever had was when I almost got caught skipping through lowsec on a distro mission (before the agent quality nerf, natch). It was my reflexes, awareness and fitting against the 'ebil pywates'. No fight on my main ever came close (not a 1v1-er so that might explain it).

I really enjoy Drackarns blog, but he and Rixx need to take off their blinders. The warp disruptor and scrambler are not sacred, they need their counter just like everything else. The fact that the WCS are being abused in one area does not require that they be nerfed across the board.

But I really like the timer roll-back idea Blink
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#178 - 2013-12-10 18:23:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Roime wrote:
I'm sorry little miss but you asked for CCP quotes, and got served.


Sorry little guy - you said that FW plexes were "all about PvP". I asked for some quotes from CCP stating that FW plexes were "all about PvP", and you failed to deliver. Every. single. quote. you posted supported the notion that FW is a mix of PvE and PvP. You can insist on your false premise all you want - you'll just be wrong more than once. Bear

Roime wrote:
you can show a CCP quote that proves they intended plexes to be safe PVE with high end payouts that affects WZ control, and maybe then we can discuss this again with you.


Except I made no such claim. You claimed that FW plexes were "all about PvP" - however, in countering your point, I made no such claim that FW plexes were "all about PvE farming". Put the straw man down. It can't help you here. And neither will thinking in false dichotomies. Sorry - as you've demonstrated your inability to comprehend - the issue is more than black or white.

I simply said that FW plexes are a mix of PvE and PvP - a statement that the quotes you provided support.

Sucks to be you little guy. But I understand if you need an excuse to end this discussion. Blink

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2013-12-10 18:25:03 UTC
They're rewarding you for fighting, a classic mistake.

Good luck with farmers not always finding a way to farm that type of system.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#180 - 2013-12-10 18:29:00 UTC
The problem with not having something like timer rollback is that it gives a huge disadvantage to the defender in his home system.

if the attacker plexes for 10 minutes in a 15minute capture plex in a low/non contested system then the defender has to deplex for 25 minutes to close that plex out for pretty much no lp.

Meanwhile the farmer has moved to the next plex and has started plexing that 15 minutes or even 20 minute plex.

Either the defender deplexes or he gives chase to get rid of the farmer

If he deplexes the farmer wins the other plex and starts another one on top of that.

If he doesn't the farmer just returns and finishes off the last few minutes and wins.

If he gives chase it involves a pretty ****** PvP fit to beat the guy especially around novices and smalls where you can't get the high alpha ships you need to be able to take them out without scrams coming out of the proverbial....



If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.