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Faction Warfare farming has to end - we want war instead of the Cloak & Stabs -game

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Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2013-12-10 13:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
Deryn Angrard wrote:


When looking for a fight I'm mainly flying something like a breacher or firetail, neither of which are that scary ships, still many of even PVP fit war targets run away

It isnt that rare to see 3-4 War targets in a plex, when i decide to suicide my solo breacher there, they all either cloak up or warp away.


Generaly people will not invade plex occupied by faction frig (about heroic neuts and pvpers - they suddenly start to "choose their targets") because it's gonna be a harder fight. Buddy of mine has better skills than me and less kills solo just because he flies a slicer. People avoid him, while I have an invader every plex I try to make. Even if I do my fail (lack of skills :P) MWD condor, so it's not about brawler vs kiter.

I seriously understand the frustration, but I still am certain that you do not understand what the other side looks like. Breacher/slasher/rifter will get more fights when you sit tight on the plex and wait.

End of trolling from my side. See ya guys o7

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#142 - 2013-12-10 13:58:23 UTC
I join the Gallente Militia the very 1st day FW was live. It's painful to see something that was so incredibly cool turn into an unbalanced farming activity. Back when i was in I was one who argued for "rewards" and argued with the people who said "no, that's not a good idea, the reward of FW is pvp on demand".

They were right and i was wrong. As an outside spectator (I've tried a few times to get back into FW, the pvp and pve of it just doesn't interest me, even after making a couple bil off of LP it took me next to no effort to get), i hope CCP takes another look at what's going on with it.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2013-12-10 14:27:26 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
SKINE DMZ wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
Lugalbandak wrote:
yes aftyer checking you killboard , im sorry to say , but 80 a 90% is farm boy is just a lie


17 T1 non-faction frigs in the last four days and 24 other ships. Even if every single one of those T1s is an evil farmer, that's still only 41%. And actually, looking at their fits, only 1 (!) has a triple wcs setup while quite a few are clearly standard PvP fit T1 frigs with no stabs at all.

Lies, all lies.

Edit - The vast majority of those T1 non-faction frigs, even the ones with stabs, are fit for combat (faction ammo and normal fittings). Have you (Deryn) considered that the reason T1 frigs run from you is because you normally approach them in vastly superior ships?

No, definitely the most guys in FW you come by for a fight are cloaked and stabbed, they are not on the killboard because they run, it's well known that pure farming low level SP characters is wrong in FW, no need to defend it, it was made for war.

Yesterday come by two caldari militia pilots in a plex, breacher and condor, I am in a condor.. I decide to jump in anyway because hey I am looking for a fight and I guess its only a small chance they will stay, of course they cloaked.

I laugh at everyone who is arguing against it, you obviously make all your main ISK by playing a cloaked stabbed FW alt Lol IMO it's worse than mining.


So, what you're saying is they cloaked and you had control of the plex. Where's the problem? It has become apparent in this thread that the real issue is that you guys just don't want to have to do the grunt work of actually capping plexes and that you resent people using tactics that force you to actually do that work.

And I make my isk on the markets. I find it hard to conceive of the tiny amounts of isk you can earn plexing as a real motivating factor.

Lol Weak attempt at turning it around, if you read properly you will find I did not go in the plex to get control of the plex, I went in the plex to hopefully get a 2v1 fight. You can bladibla all day long about "you don't want to do the grunt work" but mate, everyone true in FW and around knows it is not meant to be for that, and actually they are the ones who should do a little more work than just orbiting a button and cloaking when someone turns up, it is not exactly faction warfare Blink

If you are just the market guy, maybe this is not really your field to be talking about unless you have an alt in FW (which I doubt otherwise you know the annoyance of them)?

I disagree
RAW23
#144 - 2013-12-10 14:48:50 UTC
SKINE DMZ wrote:

Lol Weak attempt at turning it around, if you read properly you will find I did not go in the plex to get control of the plex, I went in the plex to hopefully get a 2v1 fight.


Well, there's your problem. FW is set up around controlling plexes. If you aren't willing to use the tools available to control plexes then you don't have a leg to stand on when complaining that it is too easy for other people to do so.

If you don't care about plex control then stop complaining about people controlling plexes. If all you want is PvP, go and find it. The people farming plexes are not stopping you fighting anyone except themselves.

Quote:

You can bladibla all day long about "you don't want to do the grunt work" but mate, everyone true in FW and around knows it is not meant to be for that, and actually they are the ones who should do a little more work than just orbiting a button and cloaking when someone turns up, it is not exactly faction warfare Blink


Oh, well, if everyone knows it then we don't need to have this conversation. CCP, who clearly 'know it' as well will just do what you want. Roll

Quote:

If you are just the market guy, maybe this is not really your field to be talking about unless you have an alt in FW (which I doubt otherwise you know the annoyance of them)?


I have a couple of FW alts. They are there for PvP, not for isk. And I, like everyone else in FW, can find PvP at the drop of a hat. Farmers in no way stop me doing that. Unlike you, I also care a little about warzone control but farmers don't stop that either since, as has been established at length, there is nothing they can do against people who are properly fitted and are actually willing to do the work involved in capping plexes. It's only those who want an easy mode in which they don't have to do anything except get handed PvP on a plate with no work that are whinging. And even they still get plenty of PvP! Problems? I see none.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Tzenick
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#145 - 2013-12-10 14:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzenick
We either have a couple people serious about trolling and derailing a thread started to facilitate constructive ideas for the betterment of FW or some people truly fear losing their easy mode ISK source. Lets be realistic here, we aren't discussing new players trying to make some start-up ISK and anyone who implies otherwise IS trolling or just oblivious. The problem we are fighting here is semi-afk plex alts impacting the warzones with as absolutely little risk as possible. I have lost count of the number of conversations I have had with these people, bragging about running incursions, fleeting up, or hi-sec mining on their mains while they make easy ISK.

Keep in mind that I don't have any issue with people making ISK, I do in fact believe people making ISK keeps things active in the warzone with plenty of ships to explode. I am also quite happy that there is a low barrier to entry into FW, for those wanting to explore the option. The problem is almost never the person who won't fight, although there are some of those and they are frustrating in another aspect. That is their choice to actively evade fighting and probing while trying to capture a complex in a defended system. No complaints there, can't make them fight, oh well we deal with it. Simple changes like timer rollbacks and rats that can tank reasonable DPS won't make it any harder for those individuals to claim a complex. They will however, and I am sure this is what is causing the arguments, make that condor fit some DPS mods in the lows and maybe use that CPU for it as well ( instead of a cloak). Why such a problem with that? They can still go run defensive complexes in their cloaked and stabbed ships. They would no longer have as large of an impact in a system they have no interest in doing anything but farming in.

Something does ultimately need to be done to limit this type of activity. I and my faction warfare allies attempt to hold the sovereignty of our home systems in the spirit of the design for little to no reward. We know how to counter it, we are here to tell CCP that it is creating serious issues that will impact the system and the game in general if we are forced to counter it in it's current iteration, in perpetuity. It has already done so with many people tiring of it and asking for changes almost immediately with more and more doing the same all the time. If all you have to say is "Oh its all about you" and "You just want to farm noobs" then you bring nothing constructive to the conversation. Try to be big boys and girls, tough as it may be, and add something to help resolve the issue rather than the simplistic trolling.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2013-12-10 14:53:50 UTC
Not interested in hijacking this, but ...

You're making me interested in rolling an alt just to make easy billions.
I think your thread is kind of counter-productive.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#147 - 2013-12-10 15:01:16 UTC
Implementing timer rollbacks doesn't stop you from having to run down timers to maintain control of a system.

Implementing timer rollbacks doesn't stop new players and/or farmer alts from fitting Cloaks and Warpcore Stabs

Implementing timer rollbacks DOES reduce the amount of impact that cloaky warpcore stabbed ships have on the warzone slightly. It also gives them a reason to want to fight for the plex, but doesn't force them.

There will still be plenty of backwater systems where you can farm your hearts out without getting interrupted often.

Implement timer rollbacks please.

P.S. To those that say that Gal Mil wouldn't be saying this if all the farming alts were on our side, go ahead and look back at old forum threads. I created my AFK farming alt while we were at Tier 2 or 3 and I will continue to ask for timer rollbacks until they are implemented or some other fix is put in place. Most of the active FW pilots have been asking for this for quite some time, no matter which side of the pendulum they are on at any given moment.

JUSTK is recruiting
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#148 - 2013-12-10 15:03:45 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Not interested in hijacking this, but ...

You're making me interested in rolling an alt just to make easy billions.
I think your thread is kind of counter-productive.


ATM if you just wanna farm you are better off with 4 toons, 1 for each militia so you can farm with whatever one is at the highest tier, that or get 1 corp to manage the standings and have them on 4 different accounts and you can hop to the various Faction that has the highest Tier. I recommend going the mission running route though rather than plexing if you wanna farm.

Timer Rollbacks Please!

JUSTK is recruiting
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2013-12-10 15:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Not interested in hijacking this, but ...

You're making me interested in rolling an alt just to make easy billions.
I think your thread is kind of counter-productive.


ATM if you just wanna farm you are better off with 4 toons, 1 for each militia so you can farm with whatever one is at the highest tier, that or get 1 corp to manage the standings and have them on 4 different accounts and you can hop to the various Faction that has the highest Tier. I recommend going the mission running route though rather than plexing if you wanna farm.

Timer Rollbacks Please!
How about me reading a guide about it first.

Edit: Now back to the scheduled program

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#150 - 2013-12-10 15:31:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Balshem Rozenzweig wrote:
.."My source of income is elsewhere and I pvp in militia space. I want you to pvp against me, and make profit elsewhere"

And we're back to "FW is supposed to be a way to introduce new players to pvp". Good thinking - we all know we should try harder to "repopulate" high sec.

Expanding FW system and adding new stuff sounds great, but limiting amount of people by cutting profits is what I said earlier - counter-productive...

No one said anything about cutting profits, even though I find the word in a debate about what is in essence a war of attrition distasteful. Only the "sure way" (line #2), would cut profits but it is an option however bad so needs to be included, rest just shifts most of it away from the war for space and puts more of it into holding space than conquering it .. guess which one has historically caused the most bloodshed both in Eve and the real world.

Suggested almost two years ago that PvP LP be rather high, but held in escrow and paid out when doing the boring 'other' warstuff such as shooting bunkers and orbiting buttons .. worked pretty well for the few Incursions I have participated in.
Taken to the extreme one could probably fashion a system wherein you'd need to kill people at least occasionally to make any LP at all.

Point is, the LP-for-nothing has done more harm to FW than good. Last "major" change, the one that prevented infini-farm of vulnerable systems, did not remove the mass flip paradigm just prolonged the cycle it works on .. take a look at Minmatar/Amarr front now and compare it to how it will look after new years, I am willing to bet it will be almost perfectly reversed.

Biggest wish for me is the inclusion of neutrals into the fray. That would at least give me (as a disgruntled FW trenchie) a reason to still live the life but without having to participate in a war where combat prowess makes up a fraction of a percent of the way the war goes .. I don't want to be a ghost in Pacman, forever chasing an ever fattening interloper, if I am to be a ghost I want to terrorize the snot out of people!!
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#151 - 2013-12-10 15:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Xuixien
Roime wrote:
I'm not talking about hisec mining, mission running or null anom running. Bears can be bears, they are involved in PVE activities.

Factional Warfare plexes, however, are explicitly meant to facilitate PVP combat. Running plexes is the only way to push FW systems to vulnerable state so that the Infrastructure Hub can be attacked. It's the equivalent of reinforcing structures in null sov.



I'll wait for some quotes from CCP that "Factional Warfare plexes are explicitly meant to facilitate PvP combat". I'll wait for any quote from CCP, actually, that's contrary to the idea that FW is a mix of PvE and PvP.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
RAW23
#152 - 2013-12-10 15:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
Tzenick wrote:
We either have a couple people serious about trolling and derailing a thread started to facilitate constructive ideas for the betterment of FW or some people truly fear losing their easy mode ISK source. Lets be realistic here, we aren't discussing new players trying to make some start-up ISK and anyone who implies otherwise IS trolling or just oblivious. The problem we are fighting here is semi-afk plex alts impacting the warzones with as absolutely little risk as possible. I have lost count of the number of conversations I have had with these people, bragging about running incursions, fleeting up, or hi-sec mining on their mains while they make easy ISK.

Keep in mind that I don't have any issue with people making ISK, I do in fact believe people making ISK keeps things active in the warzone with plenty of ships to explode. I am also quite happy that there is a low barrier to entry into FW, for those wanting to explore the option. The problem is almost never the person who won't fight, although there are some of those and they are frustrating in another aspect. That is their choice to actively evade fighting and probing while trying to capture a complex in a defended system. No complaints there, can't make them fight, oh well we deal with it. Simple changes like timer rollbacks and rats that can tank reasonable DPS won't make it any harder for those individuals to claim a complex. They will however, and I am sure this is what is causing the arguments, make that condor fit some DPS mods in the lows and maybe use that CPU for it as well ( instead of a cloak). Why such a problem with that? They can still go run defensive complexes in their cloaked and stabbed ships. They would no longer have as large of an impact in a system they have no interest in doing anything but farming in.

Something does ultimately need to be done to limit this type of activity. I and my faction warfare allies attempt to hold the sovereignty of our home systems in the spirit of the design for little to no reward. We know how to counter it, we are here to tell CCP that it is creating serious issues that will impact the system and the game in general if we are forced to counter it in it's current iteration, in perpetuity. It has already done so with many people tiring of it and asking for changes almost immediately with more and more doing the same all the time. If all you have to say is "Oh its all about you" and "You just want to farm noobs" then you bring nothing constructive to the conversation. Try to be big boys and girls, tough as it may be, and add something to help resolve the issue rather than the simplistic trolling.


The problem is that no one has actually made a compelling case that establishes that there is a real problem. All we have heard is that people doing this stuff means that you guys have to actually cap plexes when you don't want to do so. Farmers can be killed or driven off without much difficulty. You can hold your plexes against them without much difficulty. Where is the problem? Well, the problem is that you don't want to do the necessary things, not that you can't.

As I see it, the current issue is not the mechanics, it's that you are faced at the moment with an overwhelming numerical superiority. Don't get me wrong - that absolutely sucks. But it does not mean that the mechanics you identify are broken. You are trying to hold the line against much higher numbers and that means you have to work much harder to do so if you want to maintain control. That is leading to burnout among some players who just don't enjoy doing what is needed to counter the enemy's tactics.

Now, there might be an argument to be had about balancing things when faced with a major numerical imbalance on one side of the war but that would be a different discussion. The topics that have been picked up on here, i.e. stabbed or cloaky farmers, already have direct counters and what is being argued for is a change in the rules so that you don't have to counter them because you don't enjoy doing so. If you frame the real issue honestly and acknowledge that what you object to is being swarmed by a numerically superior force and that you don't think that should be possible in the FW environment then there is the chance for a decent conversation. But currently what are being trotted out are a load of canards backed up by misleading statements.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Wyrmlimion
Doomheim
#153 - 2013-12-10 15:41:07 UTC
So this is where all the farmers went, get back to work ya scrubs I want my ISK!
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#154 - 2013-12-10 15:45:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
RAW23 wrote:
Tzenick wrote:
We either have a couple people serious about trolling and derailing a thread started to facilitate constructive ideas for the betterment of FW or some people truly fear losing their easy mode ISK source. Lets be realistic here, we aren't discussing new players trying to make some start-up ISK and anyone who implies otherwise IS trolling or just oblivious. The problem we are fighting here is semi-afk plex alts impacting the warzones with as absolutely little risk as possible. I have lost count of the number of conversations I have had with these people, bragging about running incursions, fleeting up, or hi-sec mining on their mains while they make easy ISK.

Keep in mind that I don't have any issue with people making ISK, I do in fact believe people making ISK keeps things active in the warzone with plenty of ships to explode. I am also quite happy that there is a low barrier to entry into FW, for those wanting to explore the option. The problem is almost never the person who won't fight, although there are some of those and they are frustrating in another aspect. That is their choice to actively evade fighting and probing while trying to capture a complex in a defended system. No complaints there, can't make them fight, oh well we deal with it. Simple changes like timer rollbacks and rats that can tank reasonable DPS won't make it any harder for those individuals to claim a complex. They will however, and I am sure this is what is causing the arguments, make that condor fit some DPS mods in the lows and maybe use that CPU for it as well ( instead of a cloak). Why such a problem with that? They can still go run defensive complexes in their cloaked and stabbed ships. They would no longer have as large of an impact in a system they have no interest in doing anything but farming in.

Something does ultimately need to be done to limit this type of activity. I and my faction warfare allies attempt to hold the sovereignty of our home systems in the spirit of the design for little to no reward. We know how to counter it, we are here to tell CCP that it is creating serious issues that will impact the system and the game in general if we are forced to counter it in it's current iteration, in perpetuity. It has already done so with many people tiring of it and asking for changes almost immediately with more and more doing the same all the time. If all you have to say is "Oh its all about you" and "You just want to farm noobs" then you bring nothing constructive to the conversation. Try to be big boys and girls, tough as it may be, and add something to help resolve the issue rather than the simplistic trolling.


The problem is that no one has actually made a compelling case that establishes that there is a real problem. All we have heard is that people doing this stuff means that you guys have to actually cap plexes when you don't want to do so. Farmers can be killed or driven off without much difficulty. You can hold your plexes against them without much difficulty. Where is the problem? Well, the problem is that you don't want to do the necessary things, not that you can't.

As I see it, the current issue is not the mechanics, it's that you are faced at the moment with an overwhelming numerical superiority. Don't get me wrong - that absolutely sucks. But it does not mean that the mechanics you identify are broken. You are trying to hold the line against much higher numbers and that means you have to work much harder to do so if you want to maintain control. That is leading to burnout among some players who just don't enjoy doing what is needed to counter the enemy's tactics.

Now, there might be an argument to be had about balancing things when faced with a major numerical imbalance on one side of the war but that would be a different discussion. The topics that have been picked up on here, i.e. stabbed or cloaky farmers, already have direct counters and what is being argued for is a change in the rules so that you don't have to counter them because you don't enjoy doing so. If you frame the real issue honestly and acknowledge that what you object to is being swarmed by a numerically superior force and that you don't think that should be possible in the FW environment then there is the chance for a decent conversation. But currently what are being trotted out are a load of canards backed up by misleading statements.


We ask for this change even when the farmers are on our side. The reason we want it changed is low skilled farming alts are the fastest way to impact the war zone at the moment. Generally speaking we would like to see that changed.

JUSTK is recruiting
RAW23
#155 - 2013-12-10 15:52:26 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:


We ask for this change even when the farmers are on our side. The reason we want it changed is low skilled farming alts are the fastest way to impact the war zone at the moment. Generally speaking we would like to see that changed.


I'm obviously not understanding something here. With just 30 pilots you can completely shut farmers out of 10 systems (one defender per plex) and make it so that anyone who wants to take those plexes is prepared to fight for them. All that is required is that those pilots actually stay in the plexes. It looks to me, and correct me if I'm missing something, that the only reason those low sp farmers can have a major effect is because the defenders don't actually want to sit in the plexes and run down the timers but prefer to waltz from plex to plex looking for fights. Farmers literally can't do anything in a plex that is being actively defended. So why not actively defend them?

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#156 - 2013-12-10 16:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Home systems are actively defended. Actively Defending the entire FW zone is out of the question with the current player base. In 3-5 years if Eve continues to grow it may be possible, but for now it is not.

Timer Rollbacks won't stop farmers from farming, what it will do is make it slightly harder for them to have the mass impact that they currently do on the Warzone (basically everything outside of home systems). They will still impact the warzone for sure, but not quite as much as now.

EDIT: There are also frequently more than 3 plexes in a system.

JUSTK is recruiting
RAW23
#157 - 2013-12-10 16:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Home systems are actively defended. Actively Defending the entire FW zone is out of the question with the current player base. In 3-5 years if Eve continues to grow it may be possible, but for now it is not.

Timer Rollbacks won't stop farmers from farming, what it will do is make it slightly harder for them to have the mass impact that they currently do on the Warzone (basically everything outside of home systems). They will still impact the warzone for sure, but not quite as much as now.

EDIT: There are also frequently more than 3 plexes in a system.


Just so we're clear then, the issue is numbers rather than wcs or cloaks and what you are looking for is a system that allows a smaller number of defenders to successfully defend against a larger number of attackers?

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#158 - 2013-12-10 16:21:30 UTC
Sure, its all numbers. Spreadsheets in space and all that.

My cloaky farmer alt sits in a Medium plex for 18 min. A WT comes to the activation gate so I cloak up. Currently if he wants to cap the plex he has to sit in the plex for the base time of the plex as well as the 18 minutes that my cloaky farmer sat there. All we are asking for is that if the person that was running the plex bails or cloaks the timer goes back to the base time of the plex.

This will reduce the impact the cloaky farmers have on the warzone without stopping them from being able to plex as well as insentivize them to stay and actually fight for the plex that they have invested 18 minutes into.

You sound as if you do not want this change. Why is that?

JUSTK is recruiting
Lugalbandak
Doomheim
#159 - 2013-12-10 16:27:47 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Sure, its all numbers. Spreadsheets in space and all that.

My cloaky farmer alt sits in a Medium plex for 18 min. A WT comes to the activation gate so I cloak up. Currently if he wants to cap the plex he has to sit in the plex for the base time of the plex as well as the 18 minutes that my cloaky farmer sat there. All we are asking for is that if the person that was running the plex bails or cloaks the timer goes back to the base time of the plex.

This will reduce the impact the cloaky farmers have on the warzone without stopping them from being able to plex as well as insentivize them to stay and actually fight for the plex that they have invested 18 minutes into.

You sound as if you do not want this change. Why is that?


yep , i like to get rewarded when i kick frog butt out of a plex , dont like the w8 of what he/she plexed

The police horse is the only animal in the world that haz his male genitals on his back
Ginger Barbarella
#160 - 2013-12-10 16:36:36 UTC
So, basically, OP is raging at the fact that he can't catch those nasty, stabbed farmers? And he's saying that QCATS has never --- NEVER--- done any farming (and doesn't to this day)? Or is he saying that he wants a nice place to do so without bothering with anyone bugging his farming?

Goonies are so much better at this trolling; QCATS really needs to learn how to do it from them.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac