EVE General Discussion

So essentially you want me to convince you that afk complex farming is not the intent of the FW sovereignty system( as an extension of the complex mechanic). I mean what I am gathering is that the rewards for complexes run in FW warfare are NOT rewards for taking an active role in the FW theater. Rather, these are merely payouts to people for free ISK to PLEX their accounts or support their hisec/nullsec/pirate mains. I am terribly sorry. I have no argument for that beyond the obvious. In fact, since it is only obvious to people who, you know, want the full features of FW, maybe the best road for those who give a darn is to just leave FW with our mains and continue to farm ISK for our shiney ships. Many have already taken that path.

I will however look at changes made by CCP concerning other activities to limit afk ISK farming. There is the change to ice belts. There is the AI change that did a nice job limiting the old afk lvl 4 missioning with drone boats. There is the fact that with the mining rebalance, even the barges net a higher vulnerability for the higher possible reward. Nope, can't see any patterns here, might as well resign the FW mechanic to just another ISK faucet free for the taking rather than a real feature that many people do actually want to do, actively, like an MMO or something.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

Hopefully we will see more constructive discussion here and maybe even some fresh ideas we can all get behind. The multiple timer suggestion seems a decent alternative to rollbacks. I personally would still just rather see a rollback at normal rate if the plex isn't occupied by a faction.

WCS and stealth farmers aren't too popular and never will be. The problem is - your proposed changes would hit not only them, but also people who want to make genuine profit in FW, and the said profit is what attracts people there.

Any timer rollback is not an option because I get my plexes invaded every 5 minutes. I would make literaly nothing. And no one will ever convince me that ancient neuts and multi-million sp WTs are decent pvp opportunities.

I know local chat in amarr militia - people in slicers, comets and firetails complaining about farmers.

And I think Rawr has a point in that you are too bored to plex. I dare to say it's because you do missions, and make a lot more isk of the said "pvp only" FW than I do. Never acctualy firing at another player

The farmers are constantly in your system not because there is a problem with the basic mechanics but because you are grotesquely outnumbered at the moment.

I deleted the first part of your post because it's acctualy legit, and would maybe work if done right.

But then it's just getting silly. You guys never answer the problem of numbers in FW. If you cut profits people will disappear. Not only farmers, but those who want to pvp and make decent cash.

Chaneling them to missions would be bad, because they involve getting a lot of SP and just so you could do them in a dumb way, with fits inpractical for anything else (SBs).

At best - you would get empty space, with no pvp, and, in a couple of months, people complaining about "missioners running away in stealth bombers".

You complain, but your only valid arguement is defending home system against farmers with numerical adventage, yet you want to chase a lot of people away from FW. The "isk-printer" is there for a reason. You get the isk so you could spend it.

Seriosuly - all you guys write goes down to some basic issues you never answer. How would it change life of general population of FW players? How many would be underfinanced? Wouldn't the number of players hurt be acctualy larger than number of players suddenly happy about the changes?

You want to change FW so it fits your needs. I can understand that. But you usualy come to this post with some moral high ground, and it's totaly against facts. You chase noobs around, and call them farmers, but on the same time you tend to pick your targets yourself. This is what I typicaly encounter.

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Also - I have yet to see a player that does super well because he ignores ISK. Let's be honest here also - we all farm it, and feel alright about that. I wouldn't judge someone else's way of making profit just cause mine fits my "ideology" better.

Thank you ever so much Forum ate my post, so get the abbreviated version.

If farming alts are to be considered "real people", then yes the damage would exceed the benefits. But has to be held up against the benefit top game as a whole which would get lower PLEX prices, better risk/reward consistency etc.

Requiring a certain level of SP for a person to be able to pull in 100M+/hr is not wrong, the requirement should actually be insanely high if you compare that income level to other areas of Eve. At any rate, SP requirement for doing FW lvl4's is lower than comparable requirement needed for high-sec lvl4's yet the payouts are not the same ballpark or even the same area code.

There is nothing in Eve except for frequent capital suicide runs that requires that high an income.

FW existed and had frequent hour long BS down brawls with little to no paupers for years before tier system and plex LP was even a glimmer in CCPs beer hazed eyes. Mission based LP generation, pre-tier system ... now that was grinding!

I have farmed for a grand total of three days. Happened back in FW year two, in the final days of the mission-glitch era when one could turn down missions with no repercussions .. all plexing LP is iHub'ed because :principles: (cue rant about walk being consistent with talk, morals/ethics, taking a stand and sticking to it etc.).
Note: Back then, only drain I experienced came from the big bashes. General day-to-day operating costs were covered by loot.

PS: Wow, had a proper wall before it was eaten. I kind of like this abbreviated concept .. will explore.

then again. Last night - 4 WT in system. RFF, remote rapairer (whatever they are called), the gallante active tank frig and a freaking maladiction. 2 way older than me, 1 slightly older than me, and some dude I didn't even bother to check. All trying to get into my plex, and "pvp" lol

Then I changed systems - 5 neuts enter system, RFF goes for my plex, I kill RFF (younger than me) and warp away as I see some interceptors entering the plex. Still - 5 guys up to "pvp". I was lucky the RFF was sure he would get an easy kill.

So... let's nerf the ability to warp away from the plex or reset timers... right... I think people proposing that are in a stealth bomber production lobby :P You work as tabacco companies trying to associate cigarettes with sport - "missions good and FW healthy, do missions, skill for them, you can train those guns and rockets later"

Well, you seem to believe that this only happens to you. It certainly happens to everyone and if it causes my complex and timer to roll back at the same rate it ticks off, odds are I won' t lose so much time that I can' t finish it after said neutrals vacate. There have been suggestions that also address that concern of yours, such as only starting the rollback if it would is the opposing side that starts the rollback. I do suspect that you have also completed a few complexes as well, and for a nice reward as well.;

SB battleships on stargate, only a fool would sit a battleship at an accel gate all the time. I constantly see one guy in maller with smartbombs taking out pods while sat at a gate and he is in gallente militia. He seems to have the patience -

*snip* Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited. ISD Ezwal

He doesn't do it all the time but he does it regularly enough. I myself have taken out a stealth bomber with a smartbomb battleship though that was some time ago.

I understand your corp needs to go on the attack and get some fleet fights. However if you don't have the patience and/or the equipment to defend systems then you should let someone else handle it and go do your roaming thing.

I support and agree with all the comments made by my fellow QCATS here.

These minor changes suggested would vastly improve all aspects of FW

To sum up a few points I have read.

For the Status Quo
1) Those advocating for timer rollbacks are essentially too lazy to defend their systems
2) Timer rollbacks already exists in the form of defensive plexing
3) Cloaks and WCS are part of the game and there is no valid reason to limit their usage in FW plex's
4) Farming LP for significant isk, nearly zero risk, and little to no SP/ship/fitting requirements is perfectly ok for the game
5) Changing the nature of plexes from what they are will limit the ability of newer player to earn LP for FW


Against the status quo
a) Farmers with little to no interest in FW other than making LP for isk are adversely impacting the FW feature of Eve through an out sized reward vs. risk and the direct impact on WZ control this imbalance creates.


That to me is a reasonable characterization of the previous 15 pages of discussion.

Questions to answer
1) Is this situation acceptable for the overall health of that game in the context of FW and what is was intended to be?
2) If not then does any solution violate the sandbox ethos that is Eve?
3) If this does violate the sandbox ethos then is their past precedent for impacting player behavior to the betterment of the game?
4) What are potential solutions to correct the issue

If you can logically get to the 4th question then there is cause for change. If not then the status quo should remain.

I have my opinions on the matter and in the end all any one in this discussion can express are their opinions.

My answers to the questions:
1) Definitely the current situation is unhealthy for the overall health of FW and the game
2) perhaps changing the nature of FW combat plex's does go against the sandbox ethos, depending on the changes brought forth
3) Absolutely there is precedent and not just in FW.
4 Options mentioned so far are:
4a) Timer rollbacks based on some roll back function that resets the timer to its natural state when the plex is unoccupied
4b) Faction specific timers in the plex that have independent timers
4c) Another option is to have 2 classes of combat plex's similar to the combat exploration anomalies. One geared toward new players and farmers that has a reduced payout and significantly reduced impact on WZ control. The other geared toward combat that has a high LP payout and high impact on WZ control.