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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#41 - 2011-11-04 22:33:10 UTC
Plz make sure to give the Naga bonus for hybrids only. The Typhoon, Moa and Ferox was changed for a reason not that long ago... Giving the Naga the option to fit launchers will be nice for an alternative giving variety and a few advantages in return for less dps (just like the Rokh), however forcing split weapons just doesn't work.
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#42 - 2011-11-04 22:34:53 UTC
I forgot if i asked already, but did you notice that modules on these new ships overheat very slow? I could overheat 8 guns for quite longer time than on lets say machariel or maelstrom.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#43 - 2011-11-04 22:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
I think the main issue is that both the Oracle and Naga essentially only get one bonus. The Tornado gets falloff and rate of fire. The Talos gets tracking and damage. The Oracle gets damage and cap use? The Cap use issue is a bit of a cop out since you need that to simply fire the larger guns and doesn't really help its damage. The naga gets essentially one bonus unless you split fit it, which while it can be awesome, I don't think most people would use it.

I personally like the split fit idea, but at least give the Oracle a real bonus. Many amarr ships have this, but it isn't a bonus as so much a oh hey, now you can be on par with the other ships. Energy turrets don't do that much better damage to make using them worth the lack of a ship bonus on the ship itself.

Probably the reason you see tons of abbadon fleets running projectile turrets.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#44 - 2011-11-04 22:43:20 UTC
Btw

How does a Tornado handle vs a Hurricane or Typhoon?
How does an Oracle perform vs a Harbinger or Geddon?
Bhaal Chinnian
#45 - 2011-11-04 22:44:54 UTC
Regarding the Talos----> maybe decrease the cpu requirement slightly.

My sisi initial Talos fit :
8 large T2 neutrons,
2 T2 Webs,
1 meta 4 mwd,
1 TC2,
1 DC2,
2 T2 EANMs,
1 1600mm plate,
3 T2 trimarks
1 Reactive plating left me with just 1 cpu left \0/ nice and tight! :)



decent cap usage with that at around 4 min all mods on.

Obviously not a pvp fit since this thing would be wrecked before it ever got into range.....so please give damage bonus other than 5%.....change to 10%(or 15% per level if you are serious about addressing the 'Gallente & Hybrid problem')and ffs give it a drone bay!!! IT's GALLENTE!!

alll in alll ...nice target.

'A Good Plan executed today is better than a perfect plan executed next week'-- George Patton

Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#46 - 2011-11-04 22:52:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmell
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Btw

How does a Tornado handle vs a Hurricane or Typhoon?
How does an Oracle perform vs a Harbinger or Geddon?


If you can outrange/outtrack and still hold a point, tier3 will win. Otherwise you will lose badly because of EHP difference.

Basically you can forget about going solo on these, because first frigate or destroyer (which were buffed to nearly op state - catalyst can do up to 500dps and thrasher is not far behind) will tear you apart. They can't counter small ships and need support badly
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#47 - 2011-11-04 23:29:24 UTC
I still think it's a shame if these babies can fit the highest tier blasters, autocannons and pulse lasers though... If they will be able to, at least make sure they get REAL advantages of using lower tiers. Like MUCH better tracking or similar.

Pinky
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#48 - 2011-11-04 23:37:14 UTC
Okay, the Talos. This ship is completely worthless. It is outclassed as a blasterboat by the Tornado:

Blaster Talos with neutrons, dual MFS, 800 mm plate, dual trimarks and an ACR.
It can do 1061 DPS with Void, at 6.8 km optimal and 6.3 km falloff.
33k EHP, 1308 m/s, 105 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.

AC Tornado, 8x 800s with Hail, CDFEs, DC, 4x gyros.
980 DPS with 3 km optimal and 36 km falloff.
31k EHP with overheated Invuln, 1662 m/s, 147 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.

If you are brave/stupid enough to fly a ship in the blasterboat role, the better ship for the job is the Tornado. It is much faster and much more agile so it can actually get close to apply DPS, and it has the falloff to apply DPS while trying to get close. Selectable damage types increase its applied DPS to basically the level of blasters. The Talos has almost no chance of winning in a fight between these ships. Of course, in reality, the Tornado does not need to go into blaster range to apply its DPS, unlike the Talos. But the point is that the Tornado is better than the Talos at the only job the Talos can do, and the Tornado can also apply DPS from far greater range.

The Talos is also outclassed by the Oracle. With 8x MP and 3x HS, it does 1022 DPS to twice the effective range of the Talos, with basically the same EHP, and the option to instantly switch to Scorch for 730 DPS at 45 km. Even worse than this, the Talos will also lose a straight-up fight at blaster optimal with a bog-standard shield Hurricane. The Talos's DPS advantage over the Hurricane is insufficient to make up for its inferior EHP.

Let's look at the rail Talos then. Its competitors are the Scorch Oracle, Tachyon Oracle, Rail Naga and artillery Tornado. To 50 km, the Scorch Oracle does pretty much the same DPS with twice the tracking. The Tachyon Oracle outdamages, outvolleys and out-tracks it at all ranges. The artillery Tornado outdamages and outvolleys it at all ranges. It doesn't matter what the Naga does.

There is simply no reason to fly the Talos. The blaster fit offers nothing that the Tornado, Oracle or Hurricane cannot also do as an afterthought, way aside from their main abilities. The Talos is utterly defenceless against frigates, while the Tornado and Oracle have the combination of tracking and range to hope to apply some sort of DPS to smaller ships. At long range, it is casually outclassed by tachyons and artillery.

The Talos, therefore, is hybrids in microcosm. It is completely pointless.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#49 - 2011-11-04 23:51:58 UTC
LOL - And nobody even care to put the Naga up for comparison... Because range just doesn't work as a substitute for raw damage when you cant get a practical advantage anywhere...
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2011-11-05 00:00:28 UTC
Sad that CCP pre-nerfed the talos from early stats:
No Drone Bay
No Super-Web
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-11-05 00:18:52 UTC
Katabrok First wrote:
Exactly what Hellen said. We need 2 bonus for each of the weapons systems that we will use in the naga. ! bonus for each doesn't cut it.


This is very true since the ROF for Seige launchers and Guns are too high.
I tried a Naga with Rails and with Blasters.
To be very very honest along with being paper thin( which they are supposed to be) their
DPS is very bad against cruisers and BCs.

Its got only 3 lows so if we fit 2 TE + 1 Mag stab (DC II doesnt help on such a small tank)
In the med 1x LSE, MWD, SB II, 2x Invul II, TP II
In high 8 Neutron Blaster II or 8 425MM II.
Rig-ACR I, Gun rig I, Agility Rig

It can definitely do one thing correctly. Hit nothing below BS --- just nada
and dies ever so quickly.

For me its role is very specific - I dont yet know what that is.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#52 - 2011-11-05 00:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
The blaster Naga is worthless. There's no point fitting it with blasters, as the Tornado and Oracle deal much more DPS with much more range. It does sort of outrange the Talos, but does far less DPS. Pointless.

The rail Naga also appears to be worthless. At less than 50 km, everything else does more damage. Around 100 km is the closest it comes to being useful, as the rail Talos and Tachyoracle are running out of range. However, the Tornado can still outdamage it and massively outvolley it at 100 km, although the Tornado fit to do this requires two TCs and is a bit short of EHP. Ranges beyond 150 km are irrelevant.

The torp Naga is just hopeless. Torps are simply not very effective against other t3 BCs, because of the 450 m explosion radius and the relatively small sigs of these BCs. Basically, the Talos and Tornado do much more DPS that's much easier to apply (well, in the case of the Tornado, anyway). There's no reason to fly a torp Naga when the Tornado exists.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#53 - 2011-11-05 00:35:47 UTC
Dare Devel wrote:
Katabrok First wrote:
Exactly what Hellen said. We need 2 bonus for each of the weapons systems that we will use in the naga. ! bonus for each doesn't cut it.


This is very true since the ROF for Seige launchers and Guns are too high.
I tried a Naga with Rails and with Blasters.
To be very very honest along with being paper thin( which they are supposed to be) their
DPS is very bad against cruisers and BCs.

Its got only 3 lows so if we fit 2 TE + 1 Mag stab (DC II doesnt help on such a small tank)
In the med 1x LSE, MWD, SB II, 2x Invul II, TP II
In high 8 Neutron Blaster II or 8 425MM II.
Rig-ACR I, Gun rig I, Agility Rig

It can definitely do one thing correctly. Hit nothing below BS --- just nada
and dies ever so quickly.

For me its role is very specific - I dont yet know what that is.


Quick capital ship counters.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#54 - 2011-11-05 00:41:12 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
The torp Naga is just hopeless. Torps are simply not very effective against other t3 BCs, because of the 450 m explosion radius and the relatively small sigs of these BCs. Basically, the Talos and Tornado do much more DPS that's much easier to apply (well, in the case of the Tornado, anyway). There's no reason to fly a torp Naga when the Tornado exists.


Even if you just shoot BS, the Oracle with the damage bonus would outgank the torp naga with conflag, since the naga lacks the 4. low for the 3. BCU(you need a DCU for torp range period). I still think the old oracle concept was better for overall balance compared to the other tier 3 BCs(except the Tornado). It was even better balanced compared to the Harbinger since the focus was purely longer range.
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#55 - 2011-11-05 00:59:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Bomberlocks
Tallest, Ytterbium: I seriously suggest changing the Naga's missile bonus to include cruise missiles. Torps are going to mean nothing on a ship with that fragile a tank. The Naga would shine being able to kite BS at 130km.

Also: Helvitis Fokking Fok. You are my hero, mate.
Sheeco Ziko
Frontier Pioneerz
#56 - 2011-11-05 01:12:05 UTC
The Naga is in desperate need of having two bonuses for both hybrid and missiles. That is what i've always disliked about the typhoon you can never utilize both bonuses like for example a hurricane can.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#57 - 2011-11-05 01:33:05 UTC
Give the Naga 'versatility'. Minmatar style.

4 Hybr Turrets, 4 Missile launchers, and one ROF bonus for each. Make it like a mini-Typhoon or Nag. Except without the vertical.
Only requires twice as many damage mods - and twice the training to fly it, but versatility is awesome. Trust me.

I'd say the best way to go with the Tornado is to replace the silly falloff bonus with a 5% damage/level bonus. Kind of like the 'Cane. To balance it out, reduce the agility/top speed or even the tank. Then I'm happy.


Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#58 - 2011-11-05 01:55:45 UTC
The current way the split bonus setup is being done now is just wrong. It doesn't deal out enough damage, and the mix between short range torps and long range rails just doesn't work.

Enable Torps AND Cruise to be fit, and drop the rail capabilities. Swap one of the weapon bonuses for a resist, and make the other one a range mod. this would make the Naga the only T3 BC with a tank bonus, but considering how fragile they are anyways, the difference shouldn't be OP. Requiring it to get in close with torps, or pummel from afar with Cruise. Fitting anything except resists on a Naga is already difficult if you want to keep a MWD, so maybe that will work?

Katrina Oniseki

Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-11-05 02:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Gypsio III wrote:
Okay, the Talos. This ship is completely worthless. It is outclassed as a blasterboat by the Tornado:

Blaster Talos with neutrons, dual MFS, 800 mm plate, dual trimarks and an ACR.
It can do 1061 DPS with Void, at 6.8 km optimal and 6.3 km falloff.
33k EHP, 1308 m/s, 105 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.

AC Tornado, 8x 800s with Hail, CDFEs, DC, 4x gyros.
980 DPS with 3 km optimal and 36 km falloff.
31k EHP with overheated Invuln, 1662 m/s, 147 m/s/s average acceleration under MWD.

If you are brave/stupid enough to fly a ship in the blasterboat role, the better ship for the job is the Tornado. It is much faster and much more agile so it can actually get close to apply DPS, and it has the falloff to apply DPS while trying to get close. Selectable damage types increase its applied DPS to basically the level of blasters. The Talos has almost no chance of winning in a fight between these ships. Of course, in reality, the Tornado does not need to go into blaster range to apply its DPS, unlike the Talos. But the point is that the Tornado is better than the Talos at the only job the Talos can do, and the Tornado can also apply DPS from far greater range.

The Talos is also outclassed by the Oracle. With 8x MP and 3x HS, it does 1022 DPS to twice the effective range of the Talos, with basically the same EHP, and the option to instantly switch to Scorch for 730 DPS at 45 km. Even worse than this, the Talos will also lose a straight-up fight at blaster optimal with a bog-standard shield Hurricane. The Talos's DPS advantage over the Hurricane is insufficient to make up for its inferior EHP.

Let's look at the rail Talos then. Its competitors are the Scorch Oracle, Tachyon Oracle, Rail Naga and artillery Tornado. To 50 km, the Scorch Oracle does pretty much the same DPS with twice the tracking. The Tachyon Oracle outdamages, outvolleys and out-tracks it at all ranges. The artillery Tornado outdamages and outvolleys it at all ranges. It doesn't matter what the Naga does.

There is simply no reason to fly the Talos. The blaster fit offers nothing that the Tornado, Oracle or Hurricane cannot also do as an afterthought, way aside from their main abilities. The Talos is utterly defenceless against frigates, while the Tornado and Oracle have the combination of tracking and range to hope to apply some sort of DPS to smaller ships. At long range, it is casually outclassed by tachyons and artillery.

The Talos, therefore, is hybrids in microcosm. It is completely pointless.


Excellent analysis. After a couple of hours now, pretty much same conclusion. Very sad. Well, this is why we test. The question is now, will CCP do anything about it. Fundamentally the problem is all about hybrid/gallente ships as a whole needs to be addressed. The Talos is just an uber example of the overall problem, no way this thing can be a blaster boat with no tank. It has to be a rail gun platform as it stands. But why bother? The Tornado or Oracle do it far better.

CCP, you promised not to let this ship suck....
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#60 - 2011-11-05 02:38:25 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:


Excellent analysis. After a couple of hours now, pretty much same conclusion. Very sad. Well, this is why we test. The question is now, will CCP do anything about it. Fundamentally the problem is all about hybrid/gallente ships as a whole needs to be addressed.


CCP will not do anything about it, because they cannot. Their previous episodes of ill-thought-out power creep to lasers and projectiles have now forced themselves into a corner where all solutions are unattractive. Lasers and projectiles have intruded into hybrids' roles and become better than hybrids at the only things that hybrids can do.

There are three ways out of this problem, but all of them are impossible to implement. The first option is to boost blaster range, but this just homogenises the weapon systems. It's a stupid, lazy fix and everyone knows it. The second choice is to increase blaster damage until they have an advantage commensurate with the difficulty and danger of going into blaster range. The damage boost required would be absurd, about 50%. It simply will not happen. That leaves only the option of significantly reducing the applied damage of projectiles and lasers in the areas where hybrids are supposed to dominate. Since this would require widespread nerfs to ACs, tachyons, Pulse and artillery, it simply will not happen - the threadnoughts and ragequitting would be apocalyptic.