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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Cunane Jeran
#21 - 2011-11-04 18:41:18 UTC
Schmell wrote:
Ors Darklighter wrote:
Can anyone post a screen of the skill requirements?

Level 3 BC IIRC as it is tier 3 battlecruisers. Still you need skills for large guns, and lots of fitting skills, because those CPU and PG numbers are TIGHT . Those are hardly ships for starters

I got a full rack of 425mm Rails and a full rack of Neutrons on the Talos with plenty of grid to spare. Hell if you really want to its possible to fit 8x 425mm Rails, 10mn MWD Med Cap injector and a MAR II.

Hardly tight. Tons of room to play with.

For the record I have BC4 and AWU4
C4 985
Space Fiber Weavers
#22 - 2011-11-04 18:55:32 UTC
Please make Naga a single platform BC, we don't need any more ravens.
All Together
Invidia Gloriae Comes
#23 - 2011-11-04 19:10:21 UTC
CCP please give the naga cruise missiles only forget the torps and rails,
give it the same bonus as the raven a true caldari ship.Idea
Hratli Smirks
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-11-04 19:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Hratli Smirks

Given the choice between a split bonused Naga and a Talos, I'd pick the Talos every time. Split bonuses only ensure that the ship does two things half as well as two dedicated ships would. In EVE, where I have multiple ships in my hangar, that just means I own two good ships instead of one mediocre one.

I liked the old 4 bonuses the Naga had because it put a meaningful choice in the hands of the player: the player chooses whether he wants to fly a torpedo boat or a rail sniper and, at the end of the fitting process, he has a ship with two useful bonuses. It highlighted practical versatility that is actually rare in EVE.

To use an example, the Hurricane is a versatile ship in part because both its bonuses support it in any role (sniping, brawling, camping undocks, whatever.) The player then gets to customize the Hurricane with more versatility through the choice of utility highs (neuts, cyno, RR, assault launchers, salavager, etc.) while still doing first-rate battlecruiser dps. This is important, because versatility cannot come at the cost of performing the primary role competently. With the split bonuses, the Naga would essentially be crippled no matter what decision was made by the player in fitting the ship because he would have one applicable bonus to another ship's two.

I expect that the decision to pull the third and fourth bonus came down to someone saying "We can't give this ship 4 bonuses when other ships only get 2 that's not fair!" but I would posit that giving us A Bad Ship isn't fair either. The number of bonuses a ship gets is immaterial. What really matters is how the ship performs in space. A torpedo Naga only got two bonuses, a rail Naga only got two bonuses, and lo and behold, a blaster Talos gets two bonuses and a rail Talos gets two bonuses. That looks fair to me.
Alirra Zyir
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-11-04 19:21:55 UTC
Seems to me that the Naga is gimped compared to the other Tier 3 Battlecruisers... Its the only one that doesnt get a damage bonus to its weapon systems. Like everyone else is saying, its only got one bonus to torps and hybrids, which doesnt make it up to par with the other three.

Not to veer off topic, but its a growing trend to missile users... Look at the pirate faction ships, none of them get a bonus to missile damage. Just my two cents.

Oh yea, and this is just my personal opinion, but it seems like the Tornado is flying backwards, lol. Other than that its a great ship so far. Havent flown the other two, but their models looks pretty good to me, especially the Oracle.
Omnium Domitor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2011-11-04 19:23:51 UTC

I know it's still WIP, but the removal of explosion velocity/radius bonus on torps is a big letdown.

Why do we even want large hybrid optimal ranged bonus on Naga, when Rokh already has that and nobody uses it?

Either focus on being a complete missile boat or hybrid turret boat, not a poor mixture of both.
Votive Antiphon
#27 - 2011-11-04 19:31:29 UTC
I know it's still WIP, but the removal of explosion velocity/radius bonus on torps is a big letdown.

Why do we even want large hybrid optimal range bonus on Naga, when Rokh already has that and nobody uses it?

Either focus on being a complete missile boat or hybrid turret boat, not a poor mixture of both.
Atomic Heroes
#28 - 2011-11-04 20:11:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikuno
Tried the Talos came back very disappointed. It's not possible to fit it to be even half way useful with blasters, so it seems it's a rail only boat - and rails still suck compared to the other turrets. So sorry, but the Talos is a failure from start to finish at this point in time for me.

Looking at what the posters above said about the Talos having 2 bonuses that apply for rails and 2 bonuses that apply for blasters, sorry but you're wrong. This boat would die to a battleship if it fitted blasters, it has too little tank; it would die to a battlecruiser as it has either too little tank or too little range or speed; it would die to a cruiser or frigate as it has too little tank and no effective way of hitting them in close range. The Talos has only 2 bonuses that will work for rails; it has no other weapon system.
Genos Occidere
#29 - 2011-11-04 20:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Raimo
1st very quick impression: Talos needs at least a flight of light drones so bad. (Heck, it's Gallente too! But it really needs that modicum of utility TBH) Also it, seemed a little gimped on CPU.
Kyoko Sakoda
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#30 - 2011-11-04 20:17:10 UTC
I think it would be more interesting if the Naga was a cruise missile platform. Cruise missiles are under-utilized on TQ.
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2011-11-04 20:58:27 UTC
I have to agree with the people above and say that have naga do a single thing well rather than two subpar. It hardly seems fair that it has only a single applicable bonus at a time when it's even not a damage one, which the others get. Yes, it has versatility, but what's the point of that when there's better ships for the job either way? The talon is more effective with hybrids and while not directly comparable, you could get two stealth bombers for the price of a naga.

This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.

Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2011-11-04 21:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Scottishprog
I am sorta ambivalent on the split weapons bonuses on the Naga.... for the main reason that you are not forced to use two different weapons systems... you can use one or the other for all 8 high slots, and thus only one set of damage mods, unlike say, the typhoon.

Now, I can see why they would not want to bonus torps any more then they already are.... make the ship too capable of hitting smaller ships....

Rails on the other hand, might used a damage, or more likely a tracking boost in addition to the range boost?

Or are we gonna have to be content with the "damage boost" of being able to use higher damage ammo to farther ranges?

On a separate note, I think the EHP is a bit low, I was only able to get it up to 17K or so with a reasonable tank. (EM resist rig, two extender rigs, all T1, and two invluns) Time will tell it that is too prone to being instapopped...

This ship will never be the jack of all trades in PvP, it's DAMAGE all the way baby! (leave the tackling to someone else; takes too much out of the shield....
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#33 - 2011-11-04 21:13:08 UTC
I think the Naga should get a rof bonus to hybrids and torps, to complement the current bonuses.
Katabrok First
Apukaray Security
#34 - 2011-11-04 21:13:39 UTC
I think the Naga should get a rof bonus to hybrids and torps, to complement the current bonuses.
Kalot Sakaar
#35 - 2011-11-04 21:16:43 UTC
Once again, Minmater wins. Oracle not bad. The others... meh. Talos seems terrible. Need to see if I can fit this better.
Death Toll007
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-11-04 21:46:18 UTC
Players of EVE....


The Caldari will never have another ship to fit their fiction role.


The Caldari will never have a ship designed into a specialist role.


I gave up training Caldari and switched to minmatar, and have loved it.

Lesson here...


Accept it, CCP will not listen to any discussion making a useful Caldari ship again.

Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-11-04 22:09:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen0nn
Kalot Sakaar wrote:
Once again, Minmater wins. Oracle not bad. The others... meh. Talos seems terrible. Need to see if I can fit this better.

I'd actually say that the Oracle is on par with the Tornado, close battle Tornado wins, ranged the Oracle wins.
But who knows if being able to fit T2 Tachs will make it to Triti.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2011-11-04 22:25:47 UTC
1 hour testing the Naga using torpedoes


I try to use a gang fit where I'm the dps ship. I try to fit a basic t2 but failed:

High -> 8 Siege Missile Launcher T2
Medium -> 1 MWD Y-T8 + 2 Invul T2 + 1 Large Shield Extender + 1 Photon + 1 wildcard slot (I selected a target painter t2)
Low -> 1 Damage Control T2 + 2 Ballistic Control Systems T2
Rigs -> 3 CDF extenders

If possible I was expecting a buffer shield of 9k, cap 3 minutes, resistances around 60-70%.

When I try to fit the large shield extender and the second BCS I had no CPU!
For the second BCS I need at least 7 more CPU! them for the LSE I need more 46! -> total of 53 CPU needed!

This fit is a basic tank, 9K, without the LSE there is only 4k !!!! this ship needs one at least.
Also this is a DPS ship, having the ability to fit t2 weapons with 2 BCS t2 should be a minimum.

So in resume, missing CPU, at least give it more 53 and round it to 584

Then I decided to remove both BCS to try to activate the LSE and I can't! missing 13 power! Dam.... 13
I fitted a power diagnostic t2, problem solved, still one low to fill! I went for a nano internal t2.

Another problem some minor power missing! maybe if the bonus for power given for siege ML goes up to 45% we can find the missing 13 units without the need to change the power grid.


Nice speed and agility but damage of torpedoes is not there, maybe because I missed 2 BCS!

Then there is velocity/range issue, there is something missing, with faster BCs with close combat fittings that remain in the 20k orbit with mdw that I cannot break with my mdw... cannot hit them, 20k for torpedoes should be minimum!

So in my opinion this ship needs a small 5% bonus for max flight time so with BC4 the top range can go up to 25km

Also hitting something with a MDW on, even with a target painter, the explosion velocity is not there, I know that is asking too much, but please discuss a explosion bonus for torpedoes

In resume:

+ speed
+ agility
+ medium slots and low slots numbers are ok
+ grid power ok
+ cap stability in line with the other BCs

- cpu missing even to fit a glass tank!
- minor power grid issue to fit a glass tank
- DPS is not there, maybe because I can't fit BCSs that I had to drop so I can fit a minimum tank in this ship... 585 DPS only! with 2 BCSs I can get 861, a much more acceptable number, I just need CPU
- shield basic hp is too low for a BC, I understand the concept of glass ship but having less than half the shield capacity of the ferox is too much ---> 2160hp !!!!!!!!!! less 25% is a more acceptable number, please consider this issue.
- flight time needs a bonus

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)

Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-11-04 22:30:41 UTC
It's been said already many times but it can't be stressed enough: no split bonus things. I'd rather have the Naga stuck on just one weapon type than having the choice to proactively SUCK at both.

To the cruise lovers: there are reasons why cruise missiles aren't used much on TQ. Many of those reasons are integral to how missiles work and as such I doubt they'll ever change. Torps, on the other hand, while a niche weapon can have uses, especially on a nimble-ish platform (nimbler than a raven at least).

So I'd rather have the Naga be a full hybrid or full torp ship. A better solution would be to go back to the 4 bonuses... Though I doubt that will be the case (hordes of naglfar, phoon and who remembers what ship-pilots would cry in rage, though they probably have a reason to do so).
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#40 - 2011-11-04 22:31:02 UTC
Katabrok First wrote:
I think the Naga should get a rof bonus to hybrids and torps, to complement the current bonuses.

What about a ROF bonus for just Rails and Torps? Then it won't step into the Talos's blaster role.

With its speed the Naga has no need for a hybrid range bonus.