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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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Author
CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#721 - 2011-12-19 10:55:54 UTC
We are here and we are reading your feedback.

We will be iterating on our balancing efforts based on the feedback in this and other threads and will release some more balancing in early 2012.

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]

Koen L
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#722 - 2011-12-19 13:30:17 UTC
To see so many drastically changes after so many years is frustrating.
I made long time plans to fly one race´s big ship. I also made long time plans to focus on producing one race ship. The skilling time to fly one race mothership or even titan is really something.

But to see that every second patch everything changed completly is bad.

Thats not balancing. Thats hitting with a hammer on porcellan and destroy everything.
Instead you should turn a finethreaded screw sensitivly and not completly screw up the whole shipsets.

I want to see stability so i can make decisions which affect my gameplay for years. Building a motherhsip or even titan is something (well for me), and this issue should be solved soon.

Instead i see friends in motherships quitting eve because flying a supercapital just sucks. Dont follow populistic opinions of players who just make the loudest noise.
Close yourself into one room, throw away the key and find a good balanced solution fast, please. Sometimes its better just leave things like they are. People will adapt. I can adapt. But i dont want throw away my long time plans every 2nd Patch.

♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♪ ♫ And you lose your Faction fits ♪ \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/

Zarak1 Kenpach1
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#723 - 2011-12-19 13:30:55 UTC
hey, your the one who said all carriers svennig. i've been having a reasonable dialogue with you here. no need to get uppity
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#724 - 2011-12-19 13:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Koen L wrote:
To see so many drastically changes after so many years is frustrating.
I made long time plans to fly one race´s big ship. I also made long time plans to focus on producing one race ship. The skilling time to fly one race mothership or even titan is really something.

But to see that every second patch everything changed completly is bad.

Thats not balancing. Thats hitting with a hammer on porcellan and destroy everything.
Instead you should turn a finethreaded screw sensitivly and not completly screw up the whole shipsets.

I want to see stability so i can make decisions which affect my gameplay for years. Building a motherhsip or even titan is something (well for me), and this issue should be solved soon.

Instead i see friends in motherships quitting eve because flying a supercapital just sucks. Dont follow populistic opinions of players who just make the loudest noise.
Close yourself into one room, throw away the key and find a good balanced solution fast, please. Sometimes its better just leave things like they are. People will adapt. I can adapt. But i dont want throw away my long time plans every 2nd Patch.



Please keep it civil. Spitfire For more than 6 years Titans and Motherships were ****. You weren't crying about it then. When they changed both ship classes to something else, that was game shattering content by your standards. May I recommend the back left corner of the room for crying?
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#725 - 2011-12-19 15:04:53 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
hey, your the one who said all carriers svennig. i've been having a reasonable dialogue with you here. no need to get uppity


FWIW I'm referring to shield reps, not shield tanking. As far as I'm concerned, there is only one shield tanking carrier, the chimera. Everything else should (and does) armor tank. Fixing CSBs might allow for (say) the nid to shield tank, but no-one in their right minds will at the moment. It's most important for the chimera, as this will make chimera triage fits on a par with the archon.

Apologies if two issues have been conflated.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#726 - 2011-12-19 15:05:53 UTC
CCP Tallest wrote:
We are here and we are reading your feedback.

We will be iterating on our balancing efforts based on the feedback in this and other threads and will release some more balancing in early 2012.


<3 Tallest. Thanks for all the hard work, keep up the two way dialogue, and have a good Christmas break.
MastahFR
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#727 - 2011-12-19 18:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: MastahFR
CCP Tallest wrote:
We are here and we are reading your feedback.

We will be iterating on our balancing efforts based on the feedback in this and other threads and will release some more balancing in early 2012.


Cheer for at least taking care of the feedback we provide.

Do you have any clue if you'll attend to change something with the Hel and more generally with shield capitals/supercapitals ?
I know you already intend to apply shield as armor does, give us a DED invu and maybe some implants. But do you actually consider rebalancing the Hel so it's a ship that people would like to fly as much as the 3 others supercarrier ?
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#728 - 2011-12-19 22:58:06 UTC
just FYI our triage nids are running shield boosters and have been doing so for more than 2 years now. they do this while running 3x armor RR's for the gang. it works amazingly well.

after reading your first post on the subject of how to balance this all out. i would not complain if they did go the way you suggest with the shield stuff svennig. i would however be a very a sad panda if a thanny or nid could do as much as a chimera or archon could for their respective fleet compositions. the scale should look something like this

armor - archon then nid then lolthanny then lolchimera

shield - chimera then nid then lolthanny then lolarchon

yea, i am hatin on the thanny. its a drone boat it should suck ass at logistics compared to the other three races.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#729 - 2011-12-19 23:38:54 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
just FYI our triage nids are running shield boosters and have been doing so for more than 2 years now. they do this while running 3x armor RR's for the gang. it works amazingly well.

after reading your first post on the subject of how to balance this all out. i would not complain if they did go the way you suggest with the shield stuff svennig. i would however be a very a sad panda if a thanny or nid could do as much as a chimera or archon could for their respective fleet compositions. the scale should look something like this

armor - archon then nid then lolthanny then lolchimera

shield - chimera then nid then lolthanny then lolarchon

yea, i am hatin on the thanny. its a drone boat it should suck ass at logistics compared to the other three races.


This raises an interesting question, however. Do you run CSB triage nids because there's an advantage in shield, or because (pre crucible) a 3 CRAR 1 CET 2 CAR nid wasn't feasible due to powergrid issues?
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#730 - 2011-12-20 01:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarak1 Kenpach1
its more or less because cap power relays benefit the over all cap recharge more so than the mid slot cap rechargers do.

i think they are viable now but, they cannot sustainably rep or be given a resistance profile that is suitable for our uses. especially now that a moros alone can over come its tank if the pilot has tech 2 siege skills

edit: when i say viable i mean fitting wise. i have to ask him before i post it but, if he does not mind i'll show you what we've been using
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#731 - 2011-12-20 08:08:27 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
its more or less because cap power relays benefit the over all cap recharge more so than the mid slot cap rechargers do.

i think they are viable now but, they cannot sustainably rep or be given a resistance profile that is suitable for our uses. especially now that a moros alone can over come its tank if the pilot has tech 2 siege skills

edit: when i say viable i mean fitting wise. i have to ask him before i post it but, if he does not mind i'll show you what we've been using


Aaah yes, that's another interesting aspect of it.
MastahFR
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#732 - 2011-12-21 19:13:22 UTC
MastahFR wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
We are here and we are reading your feedback.

We will be iterating on our balancing efforts based on the feedback in this and other threads and will release some more balancing in early 2012.


Cheer for at least taking care of the feedback we provide.

Do you have any clue if you'll attend to change something with the Hel and more generally with shield capitals/supercapitals ?
I know you already intend to apply shield as armor does, give us a DED invu and maybe some implants. But do you actually consider rebalancing the Hel so it's a ship that people would like to fly as much as the 3 others supercarrier ?



CCP Tallest can you tell us if you might consider re-balancing the Hel so it's align with the 3 others supercarrier (ie. not sucking) ?
Emmerik
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2011-12-22 11:56:31 UTC
or any shield capital for that matter
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#734 - 2011-12-22 16:49:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarak1 Kenpach1
Svennig this is something you would see us use.

[Nidhoggur, New Setup 1]
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Triage Module II
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

i'll never use it until the triage II changes come into play because i think the tank leaves it with a small/med gang skirmish role and that is quickly disappearing due to the damage changes to dreadnaughts. we typically run armor so, this may look like a bastard fit to some but, when the ships in triage it is on it's own so, you got to tank with what you can get.

the ship has absolutely no fitting issues in this setup but, again the tank is around 8k active so, i'm reluctant to use it.

another thing. you mentioned the slot layouts of the archon and chimera. i'll post these so you can see where you are mistaken about how the chimera's slot layouts compromise regen rates of capacitor.

[Archon, triage standard]
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Triage Module II
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

[Chimera, standard triage]
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Imperial Navy Cap Recharger
Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Imperial Navy Cap Recharger
Imperial Navy Cap Recharger
Imperial Navy Cap Recharger

Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I
Triage Module II

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I



so, price difference aside, examine the lows and mids on these two ships. subract reps and resistance mods. these ships have the same recharge mod layout. the tanks are nearly identical as well. the chimera actually gets a little bit of an advantage over the archon since its resists are slightly better. lol, i'm starting to talk myself out of changes to the chimera. Oops

edit: i found whats unreasonable. the capital shield trans require about 10% more cap to activate than capital RR's
Dizztar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#735 - 2011-12-22 23:16:43 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
edit: i found whats unreasonable. the capital shield trans require about 10% more cap to activate than capital RR's

So do capital shield boosters. Please stop trying to make shield tanking identical to armour tanking, they're not meant to be the same thing. Shield tanks are meant to be stronger (via better resists from invulns), cost more cap and hence run in shorter bursts. Armour is meant to be easier to sustain for longer periods but at a lower repair rate (EANMs - the armour omni tank mod - give way lower resists).

Please keep in mind while balancing that you're comparing apples to oranges.
Xtover
Cold Moon Destruction.
#736 - 2011-12-23 00:23:00 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#737 - 2011-12-23 01:04:51 UTC
dizzler, you need to read a bit more than the last post. svennig and i are discussing particuliars of the med/low energy mods and how they contrast and relate to the chimera and archons performance.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#738 - 2011-12-23 01:10:50 UTC
the triage II will actually imabalance this since the chimera will not be able to fit the module without a CPU boost and the archon will be able to fit it without any issues at all. and since it means a massive reduction in activation cost of the RR's the archon can now fit an additional 1-2 EANM's instead of CPR's this means that the ship is now going to be a real bastard to to take down before it can get out triage and receive reps. this will not be much of an issue in k-space where a couple supers can punish someone for even fielding a traditional capital but, in wormhole space it means the balance between shielding and armor is going to tip even further in the favor of the armor fleet.

which is fine by me and most of my corp if you really want to go there but, it seems like a shame that half of the potential fleet comps will be made completely obsolete in w-space due to this very small detail
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#739 - 2011-12-25 01:22:52 UTC
The chimera desperately needs more CPU, 10-20% more CPU, it won't fit Triage II even with faction and meta mods in a standard 3 triple remote 1 shield booster fit, it still painful when its only 2 remote.

Its capacitor is also rather weak.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#740 - 2011-12-25 03:33:06 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
the triage II will actually imabalance this since the chimera will not be able to fit the module without a CPU boost and the archon will be able to fit it without any issues at all. and since it means a massive reduction in activation cost of the RR's the archon can now fit an additional 1-2 EANM's instead of CPR's this means that the ship is now going to be a real bastard to to take down before it can get out triage and receive reps. this will not be much of an issue in k-space where a couple supers can punish someone for even fielding a traditional capital but, in wormhole space it means the balance between shielding and armor is going to tip even further in the favor of the armor fleet.

which is fine by me and most of my corp if you really want to go there but, it seems like a shame that half of the potential fleet comps will be made completely obsolete in w-space due to this very small detail


This, and why havn't capital ship self-destructs been changed yet?

But to be fair Zarak, you know the only viable way to drop carriers in W-Space is to use bhaalgorns; raw damage output in W-Space is always much smaller than K-Space as well because of the limited number of battleships used. The burst tank of a carrier in these situations tends to be irrelevant (except in invasion scenarios where the defender has dreads) . Cataclysmic holes are the exception to this rule because local tank takes a huge hit.

TBH, I don't know where the Triage 2 module should even go. Triage is already strong as hell in W-space, but in known space where its more blobby its weaker.

You guys should really run the numbers with the new T2 ganglinks. They benefited armor much more than shield (1.69 triaged cycle time makes a bigger difference for end of cycle reps+ resistance gain is higher in general). If a triage carrier can remote rep in 1.69 secs, I don't think I can say end of cycle is much of a drawback (1.43 sec overheated).

I won't lie though, I've never seen anyone bring a shield carrier out for pvp in W-space. Archons having that cap energy transfer range can keep your bhaalgorns fed, whereas a nid you are stuck with the 16.5km range for cap energy transfers. Yes, bassys and guardians can be used, but bassys are much easier to alpha down than guardians, and you end up back at square 1.