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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2011-11-05 22:49:27 UTC
Naglfar only needs one thing , give it back the third turret slot and remove 1 med from it.

Top damage, worse tank.

Nid and hel are both shi* its bonus make them consume cap faster, they have worst cap and worst tank if they are going to be giant guardians give them a op repair bonus , something that can make
a difference.
Aoa Lux
Joel Osteen's Internet Tax Shelter
#42 - 2011-11-05 23:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aoa Lux
Pesadel0 wrote:
Naglfar only needs one thing , give it back the third turret slot and remove 1 med from it.


m8 I don't want to call you out here but that is very dumb.
It takes the art department like two years just to take an antenna off a ship model.
There is no way they are going to redesign the naglfar.

%bonus increase to damage/rof.
Far more simple solution.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2011-11-06 01:00:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Pesadel0 wrote:
Naglfar only needs one thing , give it back the third turret slot and remove 1 med from it.

Top damage, worse tank.

Nid and hel are both shi* its bonus make them consume cap faster, they have worst cap and worst tank if they are going to be giant guardians give them a op repair bonus , something that can make
a difference.


It does not have the worst tank unless you are armor tanking it. If you are saying that you need to balance the Naglfar based on its armor tank, then you should balance the phoenix the same way, on its armor tank. Insert OP phoenix here.

Relevant part of my first post

...

Armor EHP comparison(3x trimark Is, 2x EANM IIs, 1x DCU II)
Moros - 2,049,789
Revelation - 2,058,336
Naglfar (remove one EANM because of low slots, you should really be shield tanking this ship anyway) - 1,635,112

Shield EHP (Nag only - 3x Large Core Defence Field Extender, 2x invul IIs, DCU II)
Naglfar - 1,906,907 (Unaffected by compensation skills, does not require 5x lvl 5 skills to reach this level)
Naglfar (+1 invul (3 total) because, lets face it, you should be replacing a TC with a TE if shield fitted...) - 2,112,473

...

"BUT WAIT!" you say. "You are using one more slot to get that higher EHP out of a Naglfar."
"Yes, I am," I respond."However, the Moros has no ability to add a EHP slot without losing the third damage mod. On top of that, that capacitor you gain from that one cap mod the Moros gets is lost when you realize that the Moros's guns use capacitor."

But you still, despite the EHP, burst tank, capless weapons, damage selection, and versatility of the Naglfar, think that it should get more DPS than a Moros?

The Naglfar's issue is that the autocannons lack the significant falloff of their lesser cousins and the missiles are rather poor.

The issue of shield capital bonuses / slave implants on armor ships is an entirely separate issue and has not been addressed well enough by CCP.

Beyond those two issues, the Naglfar is not broken.
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#44 - 2011-11-06 01:38:39 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Naglfar only needs one thing , give it back the third turret slot and remove 1 med from it.

Top damage, worse tank.

Nid and hel are both shi* its bonus make them consume cap faster, they have worst cap and worst tank if they are going to be giant guardians give them a op repair bonus , something that can make
a difference.


It does not have the worst tank unless you are armor tanking it. If you are saying that you need to balance the Naglfar based on its armor tank, then you should balance the phoenix the same way, on its armor tank. Insert OP phoenix here.

Relevant part of my first post

...

Armor EHP comparison(3x trimark Is, 2x EANM IIs, 1x DCU II)
Moros - 2,049,789
Revelation - 2,058,336
Naglfar (remove one EANM because of low slots, you should really be shield tanking this ship anyway) - 1,635,112

Shield EHP (Nag only - 3x Large Core Defence Field Extender, 2x invul IIs, DCU II)
Naglfar - 1,906,907 (Unaffected by compensation skills, does not require 5x lvl 5 skills to reach this level)
Naglfar (+1 invul (3 total) because, lets face it, you should be replacing a TC with a TE if shield fitted...) - 2,112,473

...

"BUT WAIT!" you say. "You are using one more slot to get that higher EHP out of a Naglfar."
"Yes, I am," I respond."However, the Moros has no ability to add a EHP slot without losing the third damage mod. On top of that, that capacitor you gain from that one cap mod the Moros gets is lost when you realize that the Moros's guns use capacitor."

But you still, despite the EHP, burst tank, capless weapons, damage selection, and versatility of the Naglfar, think that it should get more DPS than a Moros?

The Naglfar's issue is that the autocannons lack the significant falloff of their lesser cousins and the missiles are rather poor.

The issue of shield capital bonuses / slave implants on armor ships is an entirely separate issue and has not been addressed well enough by CCP.

Beyond those two issues, the Naglfar is not broken.


So in your example of the Moros tank having 3 dmg mods to keep it's EHP lower, when the Nag would have to use all 6 of it's lows in dmg mods to get the same percentage effect for it's split weapon systems. Go back and fit your moros with 2 dmg mods and and more tank and show those numbers. If you want to try to get your apples closer to oranges that is.

Also those two issues you listed are part of the game we play in and just ignoring them doesn't change them. You are also ignoring the fact a Moros pilot has quiet a bit less to train to get in to his dread than a Nag pilot.


Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#45 - 2011-11-06 02:37:41 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Naglfar only needs one thing , give it back the third turret slot and remove 1 med from it.

Top damage, worse tank.

Nid and hel are both shi* its bonus make them consume cap faster, they have worst cap and worst tank if they are going to be giant guardians give them a op repair bonus , something that can make
a difference.


It does not have the worst tank unless you are armor tanking it. If you are saying that you need to balance the Naglfar based on its armor tank, then you should balance the phoenix the same way, on its armor tank. Insert OP phoenix here.

Relevant part of my first post

...

Armor EHP comparison(3x trimark Is, 2x EANM IIs, 1x DCU II)
Moros - 2,049,789
Revelation - 2,058,336
Naglfar (remove one EANM because of low slots, you should really be shield tanking this ship anyway) - 1,635,112

Shield EHP (Nag only - 3x Large Core Defence Field Extender, 2x invul IIs, DCU II)
Naglfar - 1,906,907 (Unaffected by compensation skills, does not require 5x lvl 5 skills to reach this level)
Naglfar (+1 invul (3 total) because, lets face it, you should be replacing a TC with a TE if shield fitted...) - 2,112,473

...

"BUT WAIT!" you say. "You are using one more slot to get that higher EHP out of a Naglfar."
"Yes, I am," I respond."However, the Moros has no ability to add a EHP slot without losing the third damage mod. On top of that, that capacitor you gain from that one cap mod the Moros gets is lost when you realize that the Moros's guns use capacitor."

But you still, despite the EHP, burst tank, capless weapons, damage selection, and versatility of the Naglfar, think that it should get more DPS than a Moros?

The Naglfar's issue is that the autocannons lack the significant falloff of their lesser cousins and the missiles are rather poor.

The issue of shield capital bonuses / slave implants on armor ships is an entirely separate issue and has not been addressed well enough by CCP.

Beyond those two issues, the Naglfar is not broken.


So in your example of the Moros tank having 3 dmg mods to keep it's EHP lower, when the Nag would have to use all 6 of it's lows in dmg mods to get the same percentage effect for it's split weapon systems. Go back and fit your moros with 2 dmg mods and and more tank and show those numbers. If you want to try to get your apples closer to oranges that is.

Also those two issues you listed are part of the game we play in and just ignoring them doesn't change them. You are also ignoring the fact a Moros pilot has quiet a bit less to train to get in to his dread than a Nag pilot.





The naglfar has an advantage in that you can change damage types and your guns and missiles use absolutely no cap. The Naglfar is fine.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-11-06 03:12:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Krell Kroenen wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:
Naglfar only needs one thing , give it back the third turret slot and remove 1 med from it.

Top damage, worse tank.

Nid and hel are both shi* its bonus make them consume cap faster, they have worst cap and worst tank if they are going to be giant guardians give them a op repair bonus , something that can make
a difference.


It does not have the worst tank unless you are armor tanking it. If you are saying that you need to balance the Naglfar based on its armor tank, then you should balance the phoenix the same way, on its armor tank. Insert OP phoenix here.

Relevant part of my first post

...

Armor EHP comparison(3x trimark Is, 2x EANM IIs, 1x DCU II)
Moros - 2,049,789
Revelation - 2,058,336
Naglfar (remove one EANM because of low slots, you should really be shield tanking this ship anyway) - 1,635,112

Shield EHP (Nag only - 3x Large Core Defence Field Extender, 2x invul IIs, DCU II)
Naglfar - 1,906,907 (Unaffected by compensation skills, does not require 5x lvl 5 skills to reach this level)
Naglfar (+1 invul (3 total) because, lets face it, you should be replacing a TC with a TE if shield fitted...) - 2,112,473

...

"BUT WAIT!" you say. "You are using one more slot to get that higher EHP out of a Naglfar."
"Yes, I am," I respond."However, the Moros has no ability to add a EHP slot without losing the third damage mod. On top of that, that capacitor you gain from that one cap mod the Moros gets is lost when you realize that the Moros's guns use capacitor."

But you still, despite the EHP, burst tank, capless weapons, damage selection, and versatility of the Naglfar, think that it should get more DPS than a Moros?

The Naglfar's issue is that the autocannons lack the significant falloff of their lesser cousins and the missiles are rather poor.

The issue of shield capital bonuses / slave implants on armor ships is an entirely separate issue and has not been addressed well enough by CCP.

Beyond those two issues, the Naglfar is not broken.


So in your example of the Moros tank having 3 dmg mods to keep it's EHP lower, when the Nag would have to use all 6 of it's lows in dmg mods to get the same percentage effect for it's split weapon systems. Go back and fit your moros with 2 dmg mods and and more tank and show those numbers. If you want to try to get your apples closer to oranges that is.

Also those two issues you listed are part of the game we play in and just ignoring them doesn't change them. You are also ignoring the fact a Moros pilot has quiet a bit less to train to get in to his dread than a Nag pilot.


Look at the ship as a whole, you bonus the better weapon system, otherwise you are asking for all four guns to each have an effect equal to the individual three guns of a moros. In a given class of ship, SP required should not have an effect on the ship's power (Or should a typhoon always have an advantage over a dominix, geddon, or scorpion? The typhoon is versatile, not simply "better" (though it using no cap and out-dpsing a Megathron w/ similar EHP while having no capacitor usage, damager selection, a decent engagement range bothers me, at least it runs into a bunch of CPU issues in the process)). You argue that because you had to train up those pesky citadel missiles, you should get better dps and good EHP while keeping your other advantages: damage selection, no capacitor usage, better (almost doubly so) burst tank.

2x mag stabs tank - 2,225,871
New DPS current (blasters) - 5706 at 19+19, 2378 at 60+19
+Potential 600 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 450 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New DPS patched (blasters) (1.47x) - 8388 at 19+19, 3495 at 60+19

New DPS current (rails)- 3097 at 60+30, 1290at 192+30
+Potential 600 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 450 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New DPS Parched (rails) (1.47x) - 4552 at 50+30, 1896 at 192+30

C/Ped - 2,112,473
Naglfar (Auto + Torp) - 6232 at 16+24 (<59.1), 3491 at 50+24 (<59.1)
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Naglfar (Auto + Torp) (1.1x) - 6876 at 16+24 (<59.1), 3852 at 50+24 (<59.1)

Naglfar (Arty + Cruise) - 3643 at 35+88 (<191.3), 2036 at 144+88 (<191.3)
+Potential 300 DPS from Garde IIs at 30+12 or 225 DPS at 75+30 with Warden IIs
New Naglfar (Arty + Cruise) - 4019 at 35+88 (<191.3), 2246 at 144+88 (<191.3)

So, the damage came much more into line given the extra EANM, proving my point. The EHP is in fact somewhat worse for the Naglfar under these conditions, but the damages are actually not that far off. Remember, you are still choosing you damage and not using capacitor.
VeloxMors
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2011-11-06 05:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: VeloxMors
Soon Shin wrote:
The naglfar has an advantage in that you can change damage types and your guns and missiles use absolutely no cap. The Naglfar is fine.


It also takes the most skill points to fly effectively, and by no small margin. They have to train 2 completely different weapon systems with 2 completely different sets of support skills and use 2 completely different sets of upgrade modules. Minmatar are known for projectiles, and only a select few of their ships are made for missiles; why in the world would CCP make the 1 Minmatar dreadnaught one of those missile ships, when most minmatar pilots have no significant use for missile skills?

Whine all you want about capacitor use and not being able to change damage types with the Revelation; that's the same with the majority of Amarr ships. If you don't like having weapon cap usage and damage type restrictions, don't fly Amarr (derp). If CCP had similarly made the Amarr dreadnaught a Khanid missile boat, then I'd fully support your argument about the Revelation being screwed up.

TL;DR: the Naglfar is definitely not fine.
Gol'dar
Dar Inc.
#48 - 2011-11-06 08:58:24 UTC
yesterday I tested my Nyx against Baddon and Tornado. It is a pain - fighter bomber against subcaps. The Tornado with 2 LSE and 3 medium CDFE has a signature radius of 266.

in short: the Tornado can sig/speed/shieldtanking my Nyx (FB 5) easily.

Your Tyrfing hits (Tornado), doing 7,5 damage (without 2 TP)
Your Tyrfing hits (Tornado), doing 27,9 damage (with 2 TP)

And the Tornado was unbonused. With the new T2 Ganglinks (+35% Bonus) there is nearly no damage on the Tornado (300+ m/s speed without ab/mwd and <200 signature radius). But ok, you can refit your supercarrier for fighter (in before the fight and in your staging system of course)

Your Einherji is well aimed at (Tornado), inflicting 123,0 damage (without 2 TP)
Your Einherji is well aimed at (Tornado), inflicting 126,2 damage (with 2 TP)

No changes in damage, but with 2 TP you got more hits, without TP more misses. But If you fit for fighter, the supercarrier is useless against structures and 2 sets (FB + F) are not avaiable.

The devblog from 2011-10-05 says, supercarrier are to powerfull against subcaps. Now, supercarrier are helpless against subcaps. The new T2 warp disruption field generator will bring heavy Interdictor out of neutralizer range (36km für the HIC-bubble?). Only 4 officer neutralizer can neut the HIC on a range above 34km+. So, the supercarrier can't kill and can't neut the HIC. Fine. OK, you say "bring more supportfleet". Supportfleet for what? For an expensive, bold tagged "X" on a shiphull, that can't doing anything better than other, more cheaper ships? Full insureable, dockable and cheap Dreadnoughts will bring almost the same DPS (bye bye DPS-star supercarrier) on a structures and can additional shooting a POS. For what I got a second char? For a nondockable ship, that is only immune against ewar and expensive, apart from that it's only useless?

The history of supercarrier is great. Introduction as an I-Win-ship, nerf to uselessness, buffing to a dps/ehp-monster, now nerfing to uselessness again. With this stats on sisi, please remove the supercarrier from the game, convert all fighter bomber to fighter, remove the fighter bomber skill und move the minerals and mods from the ex-supercarrier to a station. In this case, the ex-supercarrierpilots has got an adittional useable carriercharacter on their accounts.

summary supercarrier nerf:
- nerf ehp (was ok)
- removing of drones (why no separately drone bay?)
- only fighter (useless against structures and almost useless against frig-/cruiser-/bc-sized ships) OR fighter bomber (useless against subcaps)
- introduction of 36km T2-HIC-Bubble
- No-introduction of new neutralizer to compensate the new hic-bubble
- introduction of Tier3-BC (with t2 ganklinks very low sigradius, but battleship-DPS for 60M fullfitted)
- dreadnought-buff (dockable, full insureable, cheap, nearly same dps)
- logoffski-change (it's ok, but in addition to all other points it is a heavy nerf too)

only my opinion as a bittervet
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2011-11-06 08:59:47 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
I cannot repeat that often enough, the Cimera needs a serious bonus for fitting capital shield transfers and the capital shield booster needs to be looked at.
All the other carriers can be fitted with 2 capital armor reppers + their remote reppers they are supposed to fit.
Even with having the highest amount of cpu of all carriers the cimera can simply not fit what she is supposed to fit in case of logistics.
Go ahead and fit a chimera with the follwing,
High:
2x capital shield transfer I, 2x captial energy transfer I, (triage for some cases)
Med:
1x capital shield booster I, 1x shield boost amp II, 4x cap recharge II
Low:
3x capacitor flux coil II, 1x power diagnostic system II (for the powergrid)
Now 350 cpu for 2 shield modules is somewhat insane in comparison to the 75 cpu a capital armor repper needs, don't you think?


Chimera needs significantly more CPU, it can Triage decently (3x shield rr, 1x cap transfer), but CPU makes it a pain in the ass, especially as you fit more expensive, high-cpu shield boost amps (also there is an issue if you do not fit the meta 2 capital modules for reduced CPU usage). Having said that, it fits decently if you throw in a 5% CPU implant, for what its worth. Look at it compared to the Archon + thanny, CPU is never an issue for those two.

Having said that, if you toss some isk in, the Chimera does get a beastly tank out of the deal.

BTW, Nid cannot fit self armor and remote armor decently; it has to have one tank shield and the other armor(self armor and remote shield or self shield and remote armor).

TLDR: Give Chimera more CPU, maybe some PG as well


confirming you cannot fit a local rep triage chimera due to lack of cpu

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
SuperBeastie
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2011-11-06 09:13:57 UTC
Super carriers now have no role except defanging poses and bashing sov structures while titans can still EASILY track battle cruiser and cruiser sized targets and 1 shot them. this is the worst planned fix I have ever seen. It abundantly clear the devs do not take part in the end game off eve. This is the equivalent of having a level 10 decide how end game pvp in wow should be. Balance the supers while you nerf them the hel has the lowest tank of any super a aeon has more than any titan how does this make any sense to you.

Also make the revenant not terrible it has the tank of a hel and its bonus is 10% bonus to fighter and fighter-bomber max velocity per level its wrong when people would rather have a nyx over a FACTION Super cap could you imagine if t1 battle ships were hands down better than faction battle ships its just stupid

[center]SuperBeastie's Third Party Service My in-game Channel is Supers Third Party[/center]
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-11-06 10:19:21 UTC
VeloxMors wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
The naglfar has an advantage in that you can change damage types and your guns and missiles use absolutely no cap. The Naglfar is fine.


It also takes the most skill points to fly effectively, and by no small margin. They have to train 2 completely different weapon systems with 2 completely different sets of support skills and use 2 completely different sets of upgrade modules. TL;DR: the Naglfar is definitely not fine.


Every pilot in all races do this. So you are not alone.

All this Minmatar tears here bitching about their Cap ship is not Op is ridiculous.

I think because their being op in each quarter of the game has made them think that simply being Minnie pilot
would priviledge them with everything overpowered.

They cannot bear to think otherwise.

What they need is a nerfbat of reality to bring them down to earth.Ugh
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2011-11-06 11:15:32 UTC
Dare Devel wrote:
VeloxMors wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
The naglfar has an advantage in that you can change damage types and your guns and missiles use absolutely no cap. The Naglfar is fine.


It also takes the most skill points to fly effectively, and by no small margin. They have to train 2 completely different weapon systems with 2 completely different sets of support skills and use 2 completely different sets of upgrade modules. TL;DR: the Naglfar is definitely not fine.


Every pilot in all races do this. So you are not alone.

All this Minmatar tears here bitching about their Cap ship is not Op is ridiculous.

I think because their being op in each quarter of the game has made them think that simply being Minnie pilot
would priviledge them with everything overpowered.

They cannot bear to think otherwise.

What they need is a nerfbat of reality to bring them down to earth.Ugh


If minie dreadnougths were that op as you said you would have see them as much as a revelation or a moros the thing you dont , because they arent , i guess you EFT whores can say pretty much watever you want the fact remains that the minie dread and carrier and to an extent the Hel are broken .

But i guess you being in a noob corp know everything about dread fittings in eve universe and pos bashing and capital engagements , and you lack a comprehension in reading also because i said to give them 1 turret slot and remove a 1 mid to make them more squishy in returns .
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#53 - 2011-11-06 11:37:49 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:


So a Nag pilot gets to train Projectile, Cruise skills and Torp skills to cover the required ranges and to be behind in DPS now eh? And to have that "flexible subpar" tanking that was talked about requires the need to train shield and armor skills up.

Given that case you won't see many new Nag pilots. They will just chose to train for the new easy mode Moros since it's the "best" dread now and easier to get in to.


At shortest-range, blasters need to be superior. ACs and missiles should have a range advantage, and do more DPS at somewhere in medium-ranges.

That said, the current Moros is silly.
Ammath
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2011-11-06 13:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammath
Gol'dar wrote:
yesterday I tested my Nyx against Baddon and Tornado. It is a pain - fighter bomber against subcaps. The

summary supercarrier nerf:
- nerf ehp (was ok)
- removing of drones (why no separately drone bay?)
- only fighter (useless against structures and almost useless against frig-/cruiser-/bc-sized ships) OR fighter bomber (useless against subcaps)
- introduction of 36km T2-HIC-Bubble
- No-introduction of new neutralizer to compensate the new hic-bubble
- introduction of Tier3-BC (with t2 ganklinks very low sigradius, but battleship-DPS for 60M fullfitted)
- dreadnought-buff (dockable, full insureable, cheap, nearly same dps)
- logoffski-change (it's ok, but in addition to all other points it is a heavy nerf too)

only my opinion as a bittervet


This is another case of CCP being reactionary and not visionary.

All you are doing by making these changes is making sure SC pilots consolidate into every larger SC focused corps and alliances and removing their use from any smaller capital deployments do to risk. Given that the majority of complaints come from alliances deploying 30-50+ on the field at once these changes actually ENCOURAGE that kind of behavior and really harm smaller entities who used to field a few SCs at a time. This is totally counterproductive.

If you think people will bring more carriers to support the Super fleets you are deluding yourself... as those 10 titans will gun down the enemy support carriers in under 1 minute making them more of a liability than a help.

If carriers are the support ships of the Capital and Super-Capital classes then they need to be versatile enough to actually SUPPORT those ships and help protect them against sub-capital ships but yet not be a liability on the field.

I have made this post before... should 100 Cap/Super fleet be able to defeat a 500 ships sub-cap fleet... YES, although they should take a beating doing so. Lets say that subcap fleet is hell-deathed they lose about 100m per ship so 50bn ... if they kill 1/3 of the caps/supers in the melee they will have destroyed about 60bn ISK in ships figure 2bn ISK per ship and far more if they bring down a SC or Titan in the mix.

So the argument is should 100 pilots "have more fun" than the 500? Well as a long time 0.0 pilot I will tell you I will gladly sacrifice my 100m Battleship to get on THIRTY capital ship killmails.... anyone else with me?

The problem is not SCs being "over powered" it is the disappearance of Dreads and Carriers from the battlefield and this is largely due to the focused Titan DD. Those ships die almost as quickly as a battleship to the DD but cost 20-30x as much!!! Do they do 20-30x the damage? hahahahahaha no. This makes the risk versus reward out of control.

Want to fix capitals.. here is the blueprint:


  • Carriers and Dreads should not be able to be 1 or 2 shotted by DD. Or killed in 20 seconds by FBs
  • Dreads need to be useful against MOVING battleships at hit at 3-5x BS firepower against them to cost justify use, although hopeless at hitting Cruisers and below making them vulnerable to tackle.
  • Supercaps should not be nerfed AT ALL. FBs versus ships need tweaking.
  • Make a "fighter bay" as a new bay for Carriers and SCs and allow both ships to use FBs and Fighters after all these are "not drones" according to the fiction next. This allows a more granular limiting of F/FB numbers on these ships.
  • Keep drone bays on Carriers and SCs but adjust its size so they dont have silly numbers of drones.
  • Triage carriers should be very hard for DD to kill, maybe reduce Sig?
  • Dreads in siege should do terrifying damage against Titans, SCs, and Structures to compensate for no RR, no movement, no escape.
  • Capital Energy Vamp/Neut, and Capital Smartbombs if the proposed changes go through are mandatory.
  • Consider a "Point defense battery" module if proposed changes go through. This mounts say 6-8 cruiser sized guns in one module that can reach out 40-50km to provide some small-ship defense to caps/supers - this has been proposed before


In summary poor damage and poor survivability of Dreads and Carriers against Super/Titan fleets is the reason they don't come out to play. Nerfing Super-Carriers against sub-caps will not fix this problem. It will only encourage LARGER Super/Titan blobs. and LARGER support fleets coming with the capital blob. Given that CCP claims they want to discourage this, I don't see where this helps.
Vilgan Mazran
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
Deepwater Hooligans
#55 - 2011-11-06 14:15:42 UTC
Lack of any fix for the massive disparity between shield and armor supers is kind of stunning. Slaves still work on armor supers with no shield equivalent AND shield supers still have to deal with poor application of shield bonuses? Meh.
Ammath
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2011-11-06 15:39:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammath
Vilgan Mazran wrote:
Lack of any fix for the massive disparity between shield and armor supers is kind of stunning. Slaves still work on armor supers with no shield equivalent AND shield supers still have to deal with poor application of shield bonuses? Meh.


Agreed.. although id like to see an armor ship that works like the Drake Army :) until then i think we are square :)
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#57 - 2011-11-06 17:25:53 UTC
Just something I threw together in EFT regarding dreads:

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/iv0i-3-eccb.jpg

blue = Moros
green = Revelation
light blue = Naglfar
red = Phoenix

All dreads with 3 (Naglfar 2+2) faction damagemods, shortrange weapons
Moros with 2 T2 Tracking Computer
Revelation and Naglfar with 1 T2 Tracking Computer

Nyx with x-type hardeners, a-type eanm, dcu and t2 trimarks

The Moros is just towering above the other dreads, which are more or less on the same level in terms of damage.

With applied resistances:

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/iv0i-2-c81e.jpg

Naglfar and Phoenix firing with explosive ammunition/missiles for best damage

The Moros is still outclassing the other dreads, despite not being able to utilize the target's explosive resistance hole.
Naglfar has no problem to secure the second position, as it doesn't rely on missiles als the Phoenix does.
Phoenix loses 96 DPS (abou 7%) as the Nyx simple outspeeds it's missiles.
Poor Revelation does about 55% (!) less dps than a Moros, making it the worst dreadnought in this situation.

Against armor carriers in triage, the Moros beats the Naglfar/Phoenix, which are more or less identical in performance by about 1.1k DPS (4277 DPS total, Nag/Phoenix about 3170), while the Revelation is the least effective with 2837 DPS.

The same applies to sieged armor-dreads.

Against immobile shield carriers/dreads, the Moros (5244 DPS) beats the Naglfar (4243) and the Revelation (4109), while the Phoenix lacks good EM/therm-DPS (3654 with kinetic torps). (DPS against sieged Phoenix)

Against mobile carriers/dreads, the phoenix sucks badly, while the moros still delivers significant dps at optimal range.

Overall, when fighting capitals, the Moros delivers at least about 25% more dps than any other dread in any given situation. It just has the best tracking, damagemod and range of any turret-dread.
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2011-11-06 17:33:24 UTC
The caldari capitals are still bad even after the proposed balancing. The Chimera is still light on CPU even with a CPU implant. The lolphoenix is still lol (citadel torps really really need some love). The Chimera is still has a rough time cap wise making it through a triage cycle and the lack of buffer means it is still very squishy.

On a side note (and potentially off topic) I still feel it was a huge mistake turning SC's into DPS boats. A normal carrier is a logistics boat (hauling, repairing, providing fitting service, etc.) so why would the "super" variant have as its primary role a damage dealer? I envisioned them as a carrier capable of fitting 6-8 bonused capital RR mods, sporting a tank in the realm of 5-10 times that of a normal carrier, and doubling (or more) its hauling capacity.
Ammath
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2011-11-06 18:19:58 UTC
Mongo Edwards wrote:


On a side note (and potentially off topic) I still feel it was a huge mistake turning SC's into DPS boats. A normal carrier is a logistics boat (hauling, repairing, providing fitting service, etc.) so why would the "super" variant have as its primary role a damage dealer? I envisioned them as a carrier capable of fitting 6-8 bonused capital RR mods, sporting a tank in the realm of 5-10 times that of a normal carrier, and doubling (or more) its hauling capacity.


Yes but if the Carrier/Super-Carrier is supposed to be a jump-capable support ship for Dreads/Titans not only should it have RR bonuses, but it NEEDS those Fighters/Bombers and DRONES to actually provide support, support in killing enemy subcaps, support in breaking tackles, support in rep-drones, support in lots of ways.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2011-11-06 18:35:58 UTC
VeloxMors wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
The naglfar has an advantage in that you can change damage types and your guns and missiles use absolutely no cap. The Naglfar is fine.


It also takes the most skill points to fly effectively, and by no small margin. They have to train 2 completely different weapon systems with 2 completely different sets of support skills and use 2 completely different sets of upgrade modules. Minmatar are known for projectiles, and only a select few of their ships are made for missiles; why in the world would CCP make the 1 Minmatar dreadnaught one of those missile ships, when most minmatar pilots have no significant use for missile skills?

Whine all you want about capacitor use and not being able to change damage types with the Revelation; that's the same with the majority of Amarr ships. If you don't like having weapon cap usage and damage type restrictions, don't fly Amarr (derp). If CCP had similarly made the Amarr dreadnaught a Khanid missile boat, then I'd fully support your argument about the Revelation being screwed up.

TL;DR: the Naglfar is definitely not fine.


Nevertheless, arguing that the Naglfar should be better than all other dreads in all ways because it has to train those skills is silly.

The Naglfar has (and the Revelation and Moros lack):
A better burst tank
Damage Selection
No capacitor usage for its guns

The Naglfar has:
Similar EHP (with the ability to up that via overload)
Similar DPS (see the 2x Mag stab comparison required for the argument that the Naglfar has less EHP)

The Revelation has (and the Naglfar lacks):
Instant Range Selection

And you argue that the Naglfar needs the highest DPS as well, really?

The cost of flying a Moros or a Revelation is using cap and no damage selection. The benefit is that the guns (assuming omni resistances) should perform better.

Saying "Don't fly Amarr or Gallente if you do not like using cap" misses the point; we want advantages in exchange for our disadvantages. Plain and simple. Or should every race perform the exact same way in terms of DPS and EHP, with Minmatar being the only race that has damage selection and can still use its guns w/o capacitor? You are arguing that Minmatar should be the clearly superior race to fly, something that has been the way sub-capital for quite some time, with the exception of some Amarr ships (Abaddon, Zealot).