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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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Mauryce
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#361 - 2011-11-17 23:12:14 UTC
In Sisi you dump my dronebay in a high sec station, 45 jumps.....another smartidea perhaps or negligent planing?
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#362 - 2011-11-17 23:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Charles Edisson
I have a solution,

I'm not going to fire sale my super so I just suspended the count, RL money is the only think CCP listen to as it's what pays their wages.
Yes they were over powered and needed reducing BUT only one or two of the things CCP have done. They hit them with the nerf bat, then hit them again and again and again and again.

It's a shame, I know CCP wont listen to SC pilots as there are only a few thousand of them as opposed to the 10's or 100's of thousands of subscribers that don’t have them. We all pay the same for the sub so they listen to the masses.
It's a populist philosophy. Why not just label the oldest richest members something horrible (***) and kill them and take all their property. ***** ****, ***** ****.


It's ALL about the money.
Mioelnir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#363 - 2011-11-18 00:18:10 UTC
Nizzotch wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Update:

Supercarriers
* All supercarriers: dronebay +25000 (5 extra fighters/fb)


Is this not happening anymore as per http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=4796&tid=1

Would like an Update on this too.

Transparent attempt to trigger wordfilters: CCP Tallest, GM Grimmi
Sigras
Conglomo
#364 - 2011-11-18 00:45:07 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Yes you are right. CCP needs to make the things Dockable now that there nerfed into the ground as they needed to be but at the same time even Capital pilots need to be able to change ships now that it's not One ship to rule them all.

Ever hear of a CSMA?



You would have to be a complete moron to park your super in a CSMA.

Do you have any faction ships, like a Baalghorn or Nightmare? Maybe a nice officer fitted Machariel? You do? Good! Now put 10 of them in your corp's SMA and go do your own thing for a while.

Don't worry, they'll be ~just fine~ there.

CSMAs are about as juicy to pop as a CSAA.

#1 if youre really that worried about people in your corp stealing your stuff, you can just put up your own tower and uncheck that little "allow corp access" button then whoever wants in the tower needs the PW.
#2 Theyre not the same as CSAAs at all because you can still get your stuff out after the tower has been RFed, then you just log off and since you're not aggressed, poof you disappear in 1 minute.
#3 you can get a holding alt and log him off if youre really that worried about it . . . there are several for sale in the character bazaar ======> that way
#4 the problem with docking supercarriers is that now you have a ship with a HUGE EHP buffer RRing a station after it comes out of reinforce that can simply dock, get free repair and undock again to resume RR . . . this may be a bit dangerous depending on the station, but the gallente and caldari ones have very large undock radii

Say no to free repairs on 3,000,000 armor HP
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#365 - 2011-11-18 07:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Sigras wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Yes you are right. CCP needs to make the things Dockable now that there nerfed into the ground as they needed to be but at the same time even Capital pilots need to be able to change ships now that it's not One ship to rule them all.

Ever hear of a CSMA?



You would have to be a complete moron to park your super in a CSMA.

Do you have any faction ships, like a Baalghorn or Nightmare? Maybe a nice officer fitted Machariel? You do? Good! Now put 10 of them in your corp's SMA and go do your own thing for a while.

Don't worry, they'll be ~just fine~ there.

CSMAs are about as juicy to pop as a CSAA.

#1 if youre really that worried about people in your corp stealing your stuff, you can just put up your own tower and uncheck that little "allow corp access" button then whoever wants in the tower needs the PW.
#2 Theyre not the same as CSAAs at all because you can still get your stuff out after the tower has been RFed, then you just log off and since you're not aggressed, poof you disappear in 1 minute.
#3 you can get a holding alt and log him off if youre really that worried about it . . . there are several for sale in the character bazaar ======> that way
#4 the problem with docking supercarriers is that now you have a ship with a HUGE EHP buffer RRing a station after it comes out of reinforce that can simply dock, get free repair and undock again to resume RR . . . this may be a bit dangerous depending on the station, but the gallente and caldari ones have very large undock radii

Say no to free repairs on 3,000,000 armor HP



You know the tower thing's do able now that it should not be as big a pain in the ars with the fuel changes. You only have to pick up one thing to keep it running after set up and only once ever 29 days or so.

Edit: You can even off set some of the towers fuel cost by moon mining too. As my High sec Tech 2 Industry guys are always happy to buy cheaper and cheaper moon mins.Lol

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
keuel
Imperium .H.E.M.P.
#366 - 2011-11-18 09:35:55 UTC
Moros just outDPS any other dread in game with the t2 siege, named guns and faction XL (even more if you can afford use imps, it doesn´t even need to be the 5% ones or 6%).
So, how about change the other XL guns, like, increase more their dmg modifier, or lower their ROF, nerf their track to siege level, remove the Siege tracking penality and explosion radius, so titans won´t be doing any harm to any subcapital fleet.

Also, increase a bit more the EHP of dreads and carriers a bit. Also, make dreads the capital killers and Super killer, not inverse.
SCs will still being OP even with the so called fighter/fighter bomber nerf. Anyway, let´s see what will happen when the patch hits TQ.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#367 - 2011-11-18 10:06:04 UTC
Charles Edisson wrote:
I have a solution,

I'm not going to fire sale my super so I just suspended the count, RL money is the only think CCP listen to as it's what pays their wages.
Yes they were over powered and needed reducing BUT only one or two of the things CCP have done. They hit them with the nerf bat, then hit them again and again and again and again.

It's a shame, I know CCP wont listen to SC pilots as there are only a few thousand of them as opposed to the 10's or 100's of thousands of subscribers that don’t have them. We all pay the same for the sub so they listen to the masses.
It's a populist philosophy. Why not just label the oldest richest members something horrible (***) and kill them and take all their property. ***** ****, ***** ****.


It's ALL about the money.


Can I have your super? Cool

I can't comprehend of the mental deficiency required to see these changes and want to take your ball and go home. Still, I think of it as a darwinian thing. The people who stay will be the people who are intelligent enough to understand that they're still immensely powerful ships whose role and deployment scenario has now changed slightly, and aren't a bunch of whiny drama llamas.

When people like you quit, the quality of super pilots improves. Long may this continue.

Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#368 - 2011-11-18 10:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Phunnestyle
Phunnestyle wrote:
Ok heres what CCP have done right & you should be commended for it:

+ Pinging aggro timers,yes commit to the fight.
+ Limit Supercarrier to Fighters/Fighter Bombers

This is what CCP have done wrong, but never the less it is a small price to pay in consideration to other mistakes & is there by aggreable to accept:

+/- Reduction of HP on suppercarriers is basically for the haters, all that needed changing for at least the time being was the above 2 + points.

Now this is what CCP have done drastically wrong & needs changing immediately:

-Drone bays on suppercarriers need to be able to carry an optimal amount of both Fighters & Fighter Bombers. So in other words at least 20 Fighters & 20 Fighterbombers.
This is common sence & logical to all but the most stubborn of fools. While reducing Supers flexibility, you have overstepped your mark & made Supers limited in offencive ploys. For with this rediculious implimentation Supers will as has been said again & again, only be used after the winter patch with Fighters & target painters in the Mids. They will only use Fighters for the most obvious of reasons.
If they are to be intercepted by a Subcap fleet, it is primary among all else that they be at least able to give a fight back. So Fighter Bombers take & indeffinate back seat due to this patch failure. CCP need to acknowledge this failure as soon as possible & as stubborn as we know you are,you need to sort it out & inform us that you wish to sort this stupidity out. This you MUST do as you obviously don't want to give back the skill points intwined with the learning of the Fighter Bombers skill.


^ READ CCP AN DO......
You said due to feedback you changed the drone capacity to allow only 25, well 1stly who ever gave you the LOL feedback was completely wrong, 2ndly they are what you call FOOLS, they neither know of nor expeirence the machanics in question although they still give a stupid opinion never the less <- these are the people CCP listened to (scratches head in amazement that CCP listened to FOOLS)
Iv loyaly stayed with EVE for several years, correcting that 1 point above in Quote is fair,reasonable,logical, it makes sence,but unless this patch is sorted out then I will be Looking forward to STAR WARS THE OLD REPUBLIC MMO yay.
ETA for all my accounts to run out of game time start of Febuary. Sort this mess out CCP or lose a huge amount of Money & huge amount of players in EVE.
Docking Supers would be nice but for more reason than have been said. Now selling off & trading Supers is going to be a nightmare. Travel fitting them to transport them to seller destination is going to be a tricky art. For seeing many hularious Super deaths.... So being able to use station cyno's would make it that bit safer to transport them around space.
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2011-11-18 10:55:13 UTC
BTW: are Supers (Titans + MS) still able to speedtank Dreads in Siege?

DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=706442#post706442 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#370 - 2011-11-18 11:16:09 UTC
Odd isn't it?

CCP Tallest does a minimal no-real-change to hybrids in the name of gradual balancing.

CCP Tallest goes overboard with the nerf bat to supers in the name of instant balancing.

I spot a slight discrepancy.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#371 - 2011-11-18 11:59:27 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
Sort this mess out CCP or lose a huge amount of Money & huge amount of players in EVE.


Losing 1/3 supercapital pilots isn't "huge".

On the other side, the 15k peoples who used not to be able to do crap against supers is resubbing as we speak.

So, is this really a mess ?

Quote:
CCP Tallest does a minimal no-real-change to hybrids in the name of gradual balancing.


Yeh right, because buffing EVERYTHING ABOUT HYBRIDS except range is definitely a "no-real-change".

Here's what's being buffed atm :

Gallente Speed (+ 10m/s on base speed for almost every ship)
+5% agility on every blastership.
Tracking (+20%)
Cap usage (-30%)
Blaster damage (+5%)
Railgun damage (+10%)
Ammo size (-50%, more ammo in cargohold)
5s reload on hybrids
PWG/CPU needs (-15%)

Sure, that's a "no-real-change". You get bigger guns because of reduced fitting requirements. You get more tracking, more damage, 5s reloads so you can match to the situation, you're faster, you're more agile. What else would you want ? It's still bazillion times better than any hybrid/gallente buffs we've seen in the last 2 years.
Sigras
Conglomo
#372 - 2011-11-18 12:17:04 UTC
Svennig wrote:
I can't comprehend of the mental deficiency required to see these changes and want to take your ball and go home. Still, I think of it as a darwinian thing. The people who stay will be the people who are intelligent enough to understand that they're still immensely powerful ships whose role and deployment scenario has now changed slightly, and aren't a bunch of whiny drama llamas.

When people like you quit, the quality of super pilots improves. Long may this continue.

Its because they got used to having invulnerable totally overpowered pwnmobiles with a guaranteed loss of > 4 even if a battle goes bad and now they dont want to play without them.

The problem is that they want only whats good for them, and not whats good for the game . . .
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#373 - 2011-11-18 12:27:01 UTC
Sigras wrote:
#1 if youre really that worried about people in your corp stealing your stuff, you can just put up your own tower and uncheck that little "allow corp access" button then whoever wants in the tower needs the PW.
#2 Theyre not the same as CSAAs at all because you can still get your stuff out after the tower has been RFed, then you just log off and since you're not aggressed, poof you disappear in 1 minute.
#3 you can get a holding alt and log him off if youre really that worried about it . . . there are several for sale in the character bazaar ======> that way
#4 the problem with docking supercarriers is that now you have a ship with a HUGE EHP buffer RRing a station after it comes out of reinforce that can simply dock, get free repair and undock again to resume RR . . . this may be a bit dangerous depending on the station, but the gallente and caldari ones have very large undock radii

Say no to free repairs on 3,000,000 armor HP



My idea was to add the ability to moor supers to towers.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#374 - 2011-11-18 12:31:27 UTC
Neo Agricola wrote:
BTW: are Supers (Titans + MS) still able to speedtank Dreads in Siege?



Citadel cruise expl. velocity: 25m/s
Average Supercap top speed: 60 m/s

yep.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#375 - 2011-11-18 12:53:51 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
Phunnestyle wrote:
Sort this mess out CCP or lose a huge amount of Money & huge amount of players in EVE.


Losing 1/3 supercapital pilots isn't "huge".

On the other side, the 15k peoples who used not to be able to do crap against supers is resubbing as we speak.

So, is this really a mess ?



Yes completely & utterly a mess,
What is failing to some degree to be understood is that a huge majority of the wealthiest, most experienced players in EVE in both assets & multiple accounts use Supers among everything else, so effectively those victims are not only cancelling at least a pair of accounts involved with owning a Super, will more than likely be cancelling dozens of accounts wich apply to there Sub cap toons,cyno toons,indy toons etc. Would expect within a few months to lose 10K active accounts within eve, wich is a big number considering EVE has been declining for a while now, should be paramount amoung all else for CCP to listen and act to what is right,maintain and improve, this is not being done effectively.
Although alot of narrow minded people nod there heads an follow the sheep infront, this however does not make it right. Super pilots Know what is best for the particular nerf in question, what confuses me is why people who have only a narrow minded single aspect of experience & mechanics to do with the nerf in question, are being listened to over those who are knowledgeable in all aspects is beyond me. Super pilots can see it from all aspects as we fly Subcaps,capitals & Super Capitals, hence these are the pilots that should be listened to. Follow what was said in the Quote that I gave above DEAR GOD
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#376 - 2011-11-18 13:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: SMT008
Phunnestyle wrote:

Yes completely & utterly a mess,
What is failing to some degree to be understood is that a huge majority of the wealthiest, most experienced players in EVE in both assets & multiple accounts use Supers among everything else, so effectively those victims are not only cancelling at least a pair of accounts involved with owning a Super, will more than likely be cancelling dozens of accounts wich apply to there Sub cap toons,cyno toons,indy toons etc. Would expect within a few months to lose 10K active accounts within eve, wich is a big number considering EVE has been declining for a while now, should be paramount amoung all else for CCP to listen and act to what is right,maintain and improve, this is not being done effectively.
Although alot of narrow minded people nod there heads an follow the sheep infront, this however does not make it right. Super pilots Know what is best for the particular nerf in question, what confuses me is why people who have only a narrow minded single aspect of experience & mechanics to do with the nerf in question, are being listened to over those who are knowledgeable in all aspects is beyond me. Super pilots can see it from all aspects as we fly Subcaps,capitals & Super Capitals, hence these are the pilots that should be listened to. Follow what was said in the Quote that I gave above DEAR GOD


That's a whole lot of words for "Oh god my car's ashtray is full, quick, let's sell the car and never buy one again !".

Why are supercapital pilots so narrowminded about what ship should they use in EVE ? I wanted to fly a Rokh since I subscribed. I saw that it's wasn't what I though it would be when I first boarded the ship (With all related skills to 4/5 ofc).

I though "Well, the Rokh isn't what I though it would be, let's fly something else".

And a nerf like the one that is happening right now to supers isn't a HARD nerf ( -20% EHP on armor supers, -10% on shield supers, still leaves you with 80% and 90% of your current, and I mean huge, EHP). Sure, you can't instapop dictors anymore, but you still have your fleetmates to do that, right ? You're an experienced, wealthy player, in an experienced alliance. You have friends, you can form fleets. And the supercarrier is still very effective at killing capitals (What it was designed for in the first place).

What you can't do anymore is solocamping a gate in lowsec, or soloengage a 15 man gang because you know they won't EVER break your tank (And you can still CTRL-Q if something goes wrong). Is that why you are crying ?
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2011-11-18 13:10:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Charles Edisson
Sigras wrote:
Svennig wrote:
I can't comprehend of the mental deficiency required to see these changes and want to take your ball and go home. Still, I think of it as a darwinian thing. The people who stay will be the people who are intelligent enough to understand that they're still immensely powerful ships whose role and deployment scenario has now changed slightly, and aren't a bunch of whiny drama llamas.

When people like you quit, the quality of super pilots improves. Long may this continue.

Its because they got used to having invulnerable totally overpowered pwnmobiles with a guaranteed loss of > 4 even if a battle goes bad and now they dont want to play without them.

The problem is that they want only whats good for them, and not whats good for the game . . .


Wrong, I could live with and agree with the new agression mechanics(I actualy think these should be made harsher and the 30 agression timer on gates should be upped to 60 secs), the HP reduction is also ok, even the removal of the regular drones I can live with. The straw that broke the cammels back was the reduction in the drone bay size so you have to choose between Fighters or Fighter Bombers.
Too many attributes of the ships were changed in one go.
Shuut U
Prism Technologies
#378 - 2011-11-18 13:12:06 UTC
Why not make a separate drone bay for drones which are not fighters/fighter bombers?

There would be a limit to the amount of drones other than fighters which could be carried by supercarriers. Instead of making the ship almost useless, why not do something that will make it functional.

So do something like this:

Fighter Bay:
Aeon, Revenant and Wyvern: 125000 (25 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers)
Hel and Nyx: 150000 (30 total Fighters + Fighter Bombers)

Drone Bay:
1000 m^3 = 40 large drones
Limit the number of drones deployed to 10 at a time.
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#379 - 2011-11-18 13:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Phunnestyle
SMT008 wrote:
Phunnestyle wrote:

Yes completely & utterly a mess,
What is failing to some degree to be understood is that a huge majority of the wealthiest, most experienced players in EVE in both assets & multiple accounts use Supers among everything else, so effectively those victims are not only cancelling at least a pair of accounts involved with owning a Super, will more than likely be cancelling dozens of accounts wich apply to there Sub cap toons,cyno toons,indy toons etc. Would expect within a few months to lose 10K active accounts within eve, wich is a big number considering EVE has been declining for a while now, should be paramount amoung all else for CCP to listen and act to what is right,maintain and improve, this is not being done effectively.
Although alot of narrow minded people nod there heads an follow the sheep infront, this however does not make it right. Super pilots Know what is best for the particular nerf in question, what confuses me is why people who have only a narrow minded single aspect of experience & mechanics to do with the nerf in question, are being listened to over those who are knowledgeable in all aspects is beyond me. Super pilots can see it from all aspects as we fly Subcaps,capitals & Super Capitals, hence these are the pilots that should be listened to. Follow what was said in the Quote that I gave above DEAR GOD


That's a whole lot of words for "Oh god my car's ashtray is full, quick, let's sell the car and never buy one again !".

Why are supercapital pilots so narrowminded about what ship should they use in EVE ? I wanted to fly a Rokh since I subscribed. I saw that it's wasn't what I though it would be when I first boarded the ship (With all related skills to 4/5 ofc).

I though "Well, the Rokh isn't what I though it would be, let's fly something else".

And a nerf like the one that is happening right now to supers isn't a HARD nerf ( -20% EHP on armor supers, -10% on shield supers, still leaves you with 80% and 90% of your current, and I mean huge, EHP). Sure, you can't instapop dictors anymore, but you still have your fleetmates to do that, right ? You're an experienced, wealthy player, in an experienced alliance. You have friends, you can form fleets. And the supercarrier is still very effective at killing capitals (What it was designed for in the first place).

What you can't do anymore is solocamping a gate in lowsec, or soloengage a 15 man gang because you know they won't EVER break your tank (And you can still CTRL-Q if something goes wrong). Is that why you are crying ?


Not to offend you, but this is a stark example of what iv been saying, people who don't have a clue giving there opinions, at least think & understand before you woffle.

I will make a simple analogy for you think apon, I understand that its hard if not impossible for alot of people to grasp but here we go:

A Lion cub wouldn't learn to hunt & kill from a snail
So why should some one who does not understand mechanics in question & have no more experience than "Ohhh they hotdropped me" have a viable resounding say in whats best for the Super nerf. I have given a quote above on this page, that is what needs to be done,black an white,easy do it. Listen to the Super Pilots.
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#380 - 2011-11-18 13:31:41 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
Phunnestyle wrote:
Ok heres what CCP have done right & you should be commended for it:

+ Pinging aggro timers,yes commit to the fight.
+ Limit Supercarrier to Fighters/Fighter Bombers

This is what CCP have done wrong, but never the less it is a small price to pay in consideration to other mistakes & is there by aggreable to accept:

+/- Reduction of HP on suppercarriers is basically for the haters, all that needed changing for at least the time being was the above 2 + points.

Now this is what CCP have done drastically wrong & needs changing immediately:

-Drone bays on suppercarriers need to be able to carry an optimal amount of both Fighters & Fighter Bombers. So in other words at least 20 Fighters & 20 Fighterbombers.
This is common sence & logical to all but the most stubborn of fools. While reducing Supers flexibility, you have overstepped your mark & made Supers limited in offencive ploys. For with this rediculious implimentation Supers will as has been said again & again, only be used after the winter patch with Fighters & target painters in the Mids. They will only use Fighters for the most obvious of reasons.
If they are to be intercepted by a Subcap fleet, it is primary among all else that they be at least able to give a fight back. So Fighter Bombers take & indeffinate back seat due to this patch failure. CCP need to acknowledge this failure as soon as possible & as stubborn as we know you are,you need to sort it out & inform us that you wish to sort this stupidity out. This you MUST do as you obviously don't want to give back the skill points intwined with the learning of the Fighter Bombers skill.



Quote in question to sort this mess out.