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Probably the WORST event I've wasted my time on in my 10 years of EVE ...

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White Carol
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1241 - 2013-11-15 00:28:11 UTC
Luca Lure wrote:
I do understand why it took 5 days for this devpost. They had to read about 2500 replies from angry people with good arguements and come with a text that makes it look like they made some minor mistakes. I have to give it to CCP, they really are good at sweettalking the mess they created here.


On that topic:

1. "The Empire representative actors logged in and started to interact with people, forming them up and telling them where to go."
-This is a flat out lie. I sat in the live events channel x-ing for fleet until an hour after the event was to begin. Everyone in channel with me was x-ing up as well. I noticed that the same people were doing this over and over again. I then asked, "Is anyone actually getting into a fleet?" The answer was no.

2. "With a ready supply of intelligence from the fleet, several alliances had set up a wall of warp interdiction bubbles inside the gate that led to Doril. Word of this got back to the Empire forces and they sat outside the gate, pondering the possible fate of those who had joined them."
- Why the hell didn't you developers who are aware of what is going on in null sec, warn your noob army of the risks which they couldn't possibly have been aware of? You owe any player >6 mos old a full replacement for whatever they lost.

3. "Word of this got back to the Empire forces and they sat outside the gate, pondering the possible fate of those who had joined them. In the end, the need to destroy their pirate laboratory target was too great and they ordered the fleet to jump into the gate camp. Though this spelled certain death for a portion of their fleet, they hoped to get enough people through to reach their final destination and stop the pirates research."
-WOW, why the hell did you think you could lead a fleet of noobs through this? Did you tell them your plan was to sacrifice some to get to some dumb ass destination where you had a totally safe fleet waiting to crush whatever made it through?
- I don't know who these devs are in the game, but I would bet my wallet that none of them are as good at this game as most null sec fcs.

Lastly, nice try devs. The live event was a TOTAL failure.
Balaster McNugget
Into The Plasma Inc
#1242 - 2013-11-15 00:32:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Balaster McNugget
I, Balaster McNugget (Balaster of the buddy system), am pretty new to EVE. However I am already a hardened PVP Vet, coming here after years of classic EQ pvp and now emulated EQ classic PvP.

I find this hilarious, and wish that I could have made the event to die too.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1243 - 2013-11-15 00:42:23 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
- Stream the event LIVE from CCP Headquarters -


Asking CCP to punish people who exert control over certain space because of their experience and gathered assets in this situation is an idea so bad it folds in on itself, becomes good and then plunges again to bad. It breaks the sandbox to create a themepark: "are you tall enough to ride THE TITAN?!".[/quote]

agreed, nobody should be punished for how well they have done in the game, for the control and strengths they have gathered, I'm preferring the idea for these events of a non-targeted one way gate to fire fleets into system at random locations...then everyone starts on an even setting and the fleets that fight best get their rewards.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1244 - 2013-11-15 00:51:23 UTC
my point of view on this excursion was that I'm new, I want to see what EVE has to offer especially in terms of mass fleet actions and I expected at least a fair chance at that. Most of the complaints here are because people are disgruntled with just being pushed through the gate shaped mincer.

If I'd gotten blown up actually fighting in an action under orders from my fleet command actually trying to achieve something then fine, that was (i thought) the point of the event. People accept they will lose ships, but don't expect to be led to throw them away.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1245 - 2013-11-15 01:22:32 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


If I'd gotten blown up actually fighting in an action under orders from my fleet command actually trying to achieve something then fine, that was (i thought) the point of the event. People accept they will lose ships, but don't expect to be led to throw them away.


I consider my ships to be in a prolonged, extremely-slow-motion state of exploding as soon as I undock with them.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1246 - 2013-11-15 02:56:08 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


If I'd gotten blown up actually fighting in an action under orders from my fleet command actually trying to achieve something then fine, that was (i thought) the point of the event. People accept they will lose ships, but don't expect to be led to throw them away.


I consider my ships to be in a prolonged, extremely-slow-motion state of exploding as soon as I undock with them.

Which still has nothing to do with the complete screw up of the event by CCP. The rage is NOT OVER DYING. We are going to say this again and again. It is over CCP not even giving most of the several thousand high sec players a chance to even get to the event before they called it over so they could go and drink and party with their friends upstairs.

CCP; How on earth were High sec meant to win when you call the event over when most of them are still in low sec even. Your Dev Blog is a blatant white wash, and rewriting history with outright lies. I was annoyed before over the mismanagement of the event. Now I'm actually angry because you are lying about the event.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1247 - 2013-11-15 03:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Which still has nothing to do with the complete screw up of the event by CCP. The rage is NOT OVER DYING. We are going to say this again and again. It is over CCP not even giving most of the several thousand high sec players a chance to even get to the event before they called it over so they could go and drink and party with their friends upstairs.

CCP; How on earth were High sec meant to win when you call the event over when most of them are still in low sec even. Your Dev Blog is a blatant white wash, and rewriting history with outright lies. I was annoyed before over the mismanagement of the event. Now I'm actually angry because you are lying about the event.



the blog was structured to provide players with a legitimate line of reasoning excusing their choices.

the issue is they sided with hardware and digits over the state of their players, they prioritized their physical assets over their sentimental/intellectual ones and so harmed their players and themselves.

most will not understand that ccp has made the wrong choices and so will accept the blog's explanation as "oh well... they did try and had a reason.."

the issue is that for those of us who have done this before we know better, if they are continually let off for making these inadequate choices then they will continue to make them under the presumption that they will continue to work.

their line choice and reason/priority is a line of neglect not growth, and will not solve to the improvement of anything.
Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#1248 - 2013-11-15 05:09:40 UTC
Wedgetail wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Which still has nothing to do with the complete screw up of the event by CCP. The rage is NOT OVER DYING. We are going to say this again and again. It is over CCP not even giving most of the several thousand high sec players a chance to even get to the event before they called it over so they could go and drink and party with their friends upstairs.

CCP; How on earth were High sec meant to win when you call the event over when most of them are still in low sec even. Your Dev Blog is a blatant white wash, and rewriting history with outright lies. I was annoyed before over the mismanagement of the event. Now I'm actually angry because you are lying about the event.



the blog was structured to provide players with a legitimate line of reasoning excusing their choices.

the issue is they sided with hardware and digits over the state of their players, they prioritized their physical assets over their sentimental/intellectual ones and so harmed their players and themselves.

most will not understand that ccp has made the wrong choices and so will accept the blog's explanation as "oh well... they did try and had a reason.."

the issue is that for those of us who have done this before we know better, if they are continually let off for making these inadequate choices then they will continue to make them under the presumption that they will continue to work.

their line choice and reason/priority is a line of neglect not growth, and will not solve to the improvement of anything.


I kind of agree that they seem to be hiding behind a network of hardware and software excuses, but don't seem necessarily interested in solving those issues. As if those shortfalls aren't resolvable issues. I mean, if a player complains that he doesn't have the necessary tool because of a code issue, that's not the player's fault. When we're talking about the actual developers of the game saying, "We can't do this because of our software or hardware, so we work around the issue..." it does beg the question why they aren't throwing their shoulders into solving those issues.

I think more damning that all about this is simply that CCP doesn't seem to actually know what's going on. They didn't foresee time dilation occurring? They couldn't see that their route wound through a warzone and then, when they knew, it was just too late to change the route in-flight? They didn't think moving a group early might throw their entire schedule off? They thought jumping a fleet as a steady trickle through a gate was a good way to deal with a gate camp?

To take the dev's blog post at their word would require us to literally assume that the devs are capable of a level of incompetence that would be astounding. It would be like an architect that doesn't put more than one door in because he didn't think about what might happen if a fire started, or putting one toilet in a stadium because he figured people would pee at home and wouldn't buy their expensive sodas.

The really sad thing is that... yeah, I actually do believe it. Against all odds, I really just don't think CCP knows how any of this works. I take them at their word that they didn't plan this correctly, didn't know what their own game would do to their event, and didn't come up with the easy answers like available NPC titans for bridging or organized, pre-chosen, experienced player FCs before we did.

In the end, I'm not sure if I'd prefer that to them being malicious. At least if they were just being pricks, it would matter if we called them out on it. If they're really not sure how to run an event or even to fix issues within their game, what exactly can we say to make the situation better? They may really, honestly not know any better.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#1249 - 2013-11-15 06:30:34 UTC
Is the new former EA guy doing due diligence? Is CCP trying to prove they can run live events like EA to be bought by them?
Killerjock
Von Neumann Industries
#1250 - 2013-11-15 06:55:56 UTC
Constantin Baracca wrote:
I kind of agree that they seem to be hiding behind a network of hardware and software excuses, but don't seem necessarily interested in solving those issues. As if those shortfalls aren't resolvable issues. I mean, if a player complains that he doesn't have the necessary tool because of a code issue, that's not the player's fault. When we're talking about the actual developers of the game saying, "We can't do this because of our software or hardware, so we work around the issue..." it does beg the question why they aren't throwing their shoulders into solving those issues.


I mostly agree with your post, but as a professional developer of my own I feel I need to drop a line on this :)

Software development on old, complex software is a lot like doing card castles - everytime you add something you run the risk of crumbling the castle. Also, optimization is one of the hardest part of any software dev cycle: if the code is REALLY bad to begin with, it's easy to optimize.... but the risk to break it is a lot higher; if the code is good, then it's easier to manage... but it's probably well thought of and difficult to improve. When you're on a tight schedule, and show me one developer who isn't, you can't just drop everything and start fixing whatever it is you'd like to fix.

That the tools aren't there can't be blamed on the people organizing this event. But this does not mean they can hide behind that - if I know I don't have a truck I do not tell everyone I'll be hauling their stuff around!!
They knew perfectly what tools were at their disposal, and they still attempted to deliver something that was not possible by using inadequate tools. So while I give them that they could not possibly fix the tools in time, it is still utterly a fault of the organizing team.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#1251 - 2013-11-15 07:57:24 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Excellent idea that I quite like but can you imagine if "Operation Spectacle" had been streamed how bad it might have affected CCP? They need to really dig down deep and sort these events out before this happens.

On an improvement front and to combat the Null Bloc a little cos, well if they want a fight lets give them one hellava fight, you could declare that you are Titan Bridging into EVF-456 and the Titan Bridge opens, Fleet jumps, and "Whoooaaaa" along with this:

"This is the FC, due to the secrecy required for this mission we had to sow disinformation and you were not bridged to where we told you we would be going. Pilots...PREPARE TO DEFEND YOURSELVES!"

Now the spies in the Fleet will be squawking on comms back to the Null Bloc FC's, Null Bloc will be TB'ing back to where ever the hell we've landed and we'll be all "Come at me bro!" and probably all die in a big ball of flame with a smile while taking the pod goo express to a clone in a Hi-Sec Station shouting on comms "What a ride, what a ride!"

Now that's how you get around spies and that would be an awesome fight I would gladly bring a decent fit to!

EDIT:

If it is part of the game to spy and try to disrupt then surely it would be reasonable that you can put out disinformation on the objectives etc. This maintains the secrecy in both the "Chronicle" and the lore along with the "excitement of the unknown" for the participants while ensuring that those not accustomed to Fleet Warfare get some time in fleet to do something i.e. "PREPARE TO DEFEND YOURSELVES!" and the Null Blocs logistics get tested along with them being a little on the back foot and not sitting at a gate waiting for the barrel to be delivered full of the juicy fish. Cool


That wouldn't really cause our FCs to scramble and try to reach the target. It'd be more like "Welp, seems like we got shafted by CCP gentlemen." with the decisions that followed mostly guided by how far off target are we. Shooting people is fun, but if things end before we can arrive we'll just go home and treat it as yet another case of 'blueballs'. Disappointing but it happens. It's not an R64 or a CSAA to rush to defend it at all costs - while the operation "let's punch CONCORD in their spacehorse" had people attend it, it wasn't strategic.

Titans cost ISK and risk to run, they have limited bridge range, require a fleet being in system so a mis-bridge would cost us fuel, time to return and reposition or time to burn. Does this sound like :effort:? It kind of is :effort:, unless people want to have fun at all cost the fleet will likely burn home.

Why burn home? Because the only really mobile bridging ship is a Black Ops. With short-lasting nearly undetectable cynos (can still get probed down) and costing only around a billion (or less if it's a basic pig fit) it can be dropped about to move a sneaky squad. A Titan costs... last killboard numbers put it at eighty times that + fittings, though I heard they went down a tad since then. To bridge a fleet back you'd need to deploy a safe tower, jump in a titan (without the fleet knowing - there may be real spies about), bridge the fleet back, jump back the titan. It costs fuel, stront, and is too damn risky.

People should, instead of relying on CCP to give them an easy taxi (yes, I get it, riding a Titan bridge rocks. They should let people experience it, the first time you do it it's awesome. They should also have a CCP Dev commit the most common Titan Pilot mistake. The wrong button, please do press it.) and weaken the defenders for them - start organizing themselves.

No titan? Get into a corporation that owns a Titan. CCP provides a Titan bridge? Good - get into a squad of your own folk, set up a doctrine, get some logis, maybe a booster. Get at least someone who knows his spaceships to call primaries, organize and move together. Learn. Don't ask to be spoonfed fun, go punch a bear and rip the fun out of his bloodied guts.

As full of chestbeating, dickwaving and overall "Hooga booga, we best, we best!" we are, getting an alliance fleet up and running and reliably using it to smack someone about isn't as easy as it sounds. Each thing that benefits the fleet and increases its chances of success is an investment - Titans and appropriate pilots for them need to be purchased/built. Everyone can FC in theory but in practice fleet FCs - especially good fleet FCs - are valuable assets.

Asking CCP to punish people who exert control over certain space because of their experience and gathered assets in this situation is an idea so bad it folds in on itself, becomes good and then plunges again to bad. It breaks the sandbox to create a themepark: "are you tall enough to ride THE TITAN?!".


Thank you for posting this up, it was an interesting read. I certainly wouldn't advocate punishing any one player style or group of players and I didn't mean to do that in the roughly thrown together idea I had I just didn't know everything to do with Titan Bridging. This is an interesting thing to bear in mind and maybe CCP could open communications with the large entities to get some co-ordination together.

All that being said the live event fleet was massively disadvantaged in this and the cost to everyone (not that it wasn't unexpected or uncommitted at the offset) involved does mean that the fleets from hi-sec paid a lot in logistics and assets for this event. I truly hope that a happy balance can be found.

I do appreciate the time you took to fully explain the logistics required in Titan Bridging and I hope that CCP learn something from it and not to screw over any one particular side.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#1252 - 2013-11-15 08:44:38 UTC
It takes a man to understand and accept an apology from your eyes in the ground and you first reaching out for a handshake. That's because men know we are susceptible to mistakes and that's the way we want to apologize.

It takes a woman to look at you groveling in your knees with your head in the dirt to say: "I don't think your apologies are genuine. Kiss my feet if you mean them", That's because women are perfect and never make mistakes so they are not worried about apologizing Roll.

Lots of womanlike folk in this thread. "Many of you grow a pair have to" says Yoda from a Galaxy far far away from New Eden.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1253 - 2013-11-15 08:55:56 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
A large part of the problems seem to revolve around the preconceptions that events need to be large scripted "mega events"

This is always going to be a very difficult thing to achieve with any hardware and software.

When you bring large numbers of naturally antagonistic players together,and try to predict their behaviour then understandably it's not going to end well.

In the real. World events are split into tournaments or finals and semi finals etc to give everyone a chance over a period.

EvE gives us a better way to do that.It is a sandbox,players make their own events and impact every day.

A lore event that causes excitement and interest just needs to combine a little different structure to play in than the normal universe.

Ok thematic situation where a new area of space is opened with many pockets.
Some parts of it have very different rules.(like current wh space) players who choose to compete are in here for the week unless they die. (You can save this for a surprise)Shocked
So they can check in any time they like, but can never leave.


There are sites than contain something Important to the lore.

They also are needed by the state/empire/capsuleers/goons whatever to stabilise this space for their use in future.
The winning faction gets sovereignty. Pocket by pocket.
Once collected they are carried by the players in their hold until killed or looted, handed to a colleague to hold ,sold to an alliance,or handed in at the end.
Either fleets will form to protect and deliver the relics or guerrilla groups play the shell game, or whatever players decide is the best strategy for them.does the buyer honour the promise to pay? or kill you and loot it. Who can be trusted, who pays the most?
Amarr may not offer much for example and the Goons pay twice that but do you trust them to pay or blow you up on delivery?

Some areas favour the fighting of fleets, some pirates, some are almost impossible to fight in. These areas are where players can log off and rest during the week long tournament.

Now throw in the fact that over the week players will be collecting the relics that their faction needs to control the space.
And will be decided which has the most for control of each pocket at the event termination.Hand in can only happen in the last hour.

As the event approaches the conclusion PvP will get more and more intense as players ambush kill steal and cheat to get the relics already collected. The area around hand in will turn into a massive fur-ball, will it be the biggest gatecamp ever, or a massive game of hunt the courier?
Will it end at the last second with a shuttle slipping by unnoticed ? Or thousands of destroyed ships being pillaged and looted in a desperate last minute search for the relics.

So we use the players to generate their own content.you will have big fleets, small skirmish groups,awoxing spies cheating , double dealing, you think of it,we will have it. No concord no rules but the ones you make for yourself.

And all we do is give them a new space to do it in.
Should generate more tears/excitement than any scripted event. And all timezones compete.
The final side effect is future conflict, if for example Goonswarm wins 3 new pockets of space and amarr republic 2. test 5 gallente 6 etc etc Hmm sounds like good neighbours.....not.
Room for new wars and conflict in the future.

CCP the best thing is you do not even need to manage it. Just open the door, let the players go in and throw the hand grenade in!
And the players will do the rest and have fun doing it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#1254 - 2013-11-15 09:17:12 UTC
Well, we can only encourage CCP to go on - admittedly, the staggering amount of whining in those threads doesn't help - and develop better events. Perhaps spark a massive relic hunt with rewards more than just discovering a small bit of lore. When it's about lore only, and empire one at that, a lot of people will just laugh and walk away unless there's an opportunity for a fight.

Now, think billions of ISK for those involved. When it's down to that, many would throw in more than just a shoddily fitted cheap T1 boat in to get the upper hand. You put meaningful rewards in and there can only be more betrayal and conflict. (Unless null crowd wins again. Then behold, more accusations of favoritism.)

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1255 - 2013-11-15 09:23:55 UTC
Trii Seo wrote:
Well, we can only encourage CCP to go on - admittedly, the staggering amount of whining in those threads doesn't help - and develop better events. Perhaps spark a massive relic hunt with rewards more than just discovering a small bit of lore. When it's about lore only, and empire one at that, a lot of people will just laugh and walk away unless there's an opportunity for a fight.

Now, think billions of ISK for those involved. When it's down to that, many would throw in more than just a shoddily fitted cheap T1 boat in to get the upper hand. You put meaningful rewards in and there can only be more betrayal and conflict. (Unless null crowd wins again. Then behold, more accusations of favoritism.)

Trii just was in the process of updating and broadening the post above taking account of your excellent ideas.

This gives every block or faction the chance of new space Even the Goons!

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
El Jin'meiko
Warcrows
The Ascendants
#1256 - 2013-11-15 10:39:12 UTC
Actually I didn't feel that it was this particular event, the reason I stayed away this time is because the last few events had been poorly organized and ran, so for me its a culmination of events. Also, the mention of gathering resources for a live event to please industry type players was already done with the arek jaalen project, which CCP haven't finished and in all likelihood probably never will.
Chi Garu
Perkone
Caldari State
#1257 - 2013-11-15 11:01:52 UTC
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
It takes a man to understand and accept an apology from your eyes in the ground and you first reaching out for a handshake. That's because men know we are susceptible to mistakes and that's the way we want to apologize.

It takes a woman to look at you groveling in your knees with your head in the dirt to say: "I don't think your apologies are genuine. Kiss my feet if you mean them", That's because women are perfect and never make mistakes so they are not worried about apologizing Roll.

Lots of womanlike folk in this thread. "Many of you grow a pair have to" says Yoda from a Galaxy far far away from New Eden.



Thankyou for sharing your opinions, Captain Misogyny!
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#1258 - 2013-11-15 11:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aramatheia
Trii Seo wrote:
Well, we can only encourage CCP to go on - admittedly, the staggering amount of whining in those threads doesn't help - and develop better events. Perhaps spark a massive relic hunt with rewards more than just discovering a small bit of lore. When it's about lore only, and empire one at that, a lot of people will just laugh and walk away unless there's an opportunity for a fight.

Now, think billions of ISK for those involved. When it's down to that, many would throw in more than just a shoddily fitted cheap T1 boat in to get the upper hand. You put meaningful rewards in and there can only be more betrayal and conflict. (Unless null crowd wins again. Then behold, more accusations of favoritism.)


i think when it comes to anything requiring organisation and structure on a reasonable scale that most the null sec powers and possibly some of the low sec powers would have the upper hand. Possibly the only real high sec powers that might have the cohesion to put up a fight (up to say 80 ppl) might be any dedicated high sec pvp entities if they exist, or the most intense incursion mob.

And i dont think thats a bad thing because to exist where they exist (the low/null esp null lot) cohesion and teamwork and all that come together for a cause stuff matters alot. if they want to keep thier space.

Still dont think feeding veteran teams of killers bite size portions of unorganised high seccers for an hour really makes for an enthralling and compeling live event, or even content. I mean goons could probably do a whole lot better job, in highsec itself and make a ton more isk from the loot. That would probably be worthy of news articles
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1259 - 2013-11-15 11:14:21 UTC
So in terms of future events i'm gueesing most would like to see:

- Smaller better orgsanized events
- Correctly sized events to minimize TiDi
- A mix of events around different areas, not just combat
- events should provide additional lore, introduce new lore, and otherwise be relavent to the EVE backdrop
- but should not be driven purely for lore, there should be some payback for those involved

A good example may be the ghost site trailer they just released (but not necessarily ghost sites for events)

various sites to explore in low-sec or a newly opened wormhole (so not to infringe on someone's hard earned home). Limited number of places, first come first served on a PLEX authorization code found in game from data sites/loot drop/trade

then everyone has a fair chance to go on the missions and fleets will inevitably meet
then they can choose their approach, stealth, evasion, outright fight.

would be a much more rich experience for those involved I think
Lenroc Elisav
Lenny'S TAX evasion 101
#1260 - 2013-11-15 11:15:08 UTC
Chi Garu wrote:
Lenroc Elisav wrote:
It takes a man to understand and accept an apology from your eyes in the ground and you first reaching out for a handshake. That's because men know we are susceptible to mistakes and that's the way we want to apologize.

It takes a woman to look at you groveling in your knees with your head in the dirt to say: "I don't think your apologies are genuine. Kiss my feet if you mean them", That's because women are perfect and never make mistakes so they are not worried about apologizing Roll.

Lots of womanlike folk in this thread. "Many of you grow a pair have to" says Yoda from a Galaxy far far away from New Eden.



Thankyou for sharing your opinions, Captain Misogyny!


HaHaHa You were quick to jump on that, guess it hit a nerve P. Harsh reality is not misogyny, well maybe a little when you generalize it like I did Blink.