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TIDI
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ALI Virgo
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2013-11-06 12:09:38 UTC
If i had a food business and I advertised all you can eat and then while people ate I made a rule that people can only bite food once per hour. that would just be bad business.
Why does ccp boost hugs cap fights and presents that to public to play this game when we have tidi . We have supers tackled and the server just dies. Why allow such things when ability to host is lacking.
Why do we have lag in game why is the tidi so important. instead of spending time and efforts toward eve blobs and vegas. why not invest towards proper programmers and proper hardware. and the game methods that which will not break the game
Eve would be great if not for the dam TIDI AND LAG.So much time and effort is spent of chaning rules of ships and dust and dollup things like cap- cabin. Why not focus on eve and fixing it
and that dam socket close and spending 30 min to log back into game of tidi.
I guess its easy to rebalance the ships when people are getting bored then to fix what is broken. There are other games that host much bigger fights without lag or problems. why cant the game be fixed to work as advertised .
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#2 - 2013-11-06 12:21:16 UTC
Before TiDi it was worse. The server would just lag out of completely crash. Your modules wouldnt activate, etc.
TiDi is a nessecary evil to actually allow fights of this size to happen, even if it rustles your jimmies.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#3 - 2013-11-06 12:29:39 UTC
ALI Virgo wrote:
If i had a food business and I advertised all you can eat and then while people ate I made a rule that people can only bite food once per hour. that would just be bad business.

Would be worse if you got more than ten customers in your shop, the whole building and nearby shops blew up!!!


ALI Virgo wrote:
There are other games that host much bigger fights without lag or problems. why cant the game be fixed to work as advertised .


Which other games?

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Frozen Chief
Doomheim
#4 - 2013-11-06 12:41:02 UTC
Is it actually physically impossible to do what the OP is asking for though?

I have no idea how any of this server stuff works, so try to bear with my ignorance... but is this not a hardware issue? As in if they had faster servers and better/more hardware to support it, could they in theory eliminate TIDI?

If so maybe they should indeed take the money they spend adding all this extra non-sense and put it towards that.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#5 - 2013-11-06 13:03:08 UTC
Well, they "could" solve it with more hardware (and they have in the past) ... but the biggest problem is the players.

Mock several last years compressed into ~8 lines
CCP - OK guys, we have these new nodes that can handle 750 players/side easily
Players -> 2,000 man fight (servers die)
CCP -> *sigh*... dammit guys ... OK, now we can support 1250/side
Players -> 3,000 man fight (servers die)
CCP -> OK, so TiDi you crazy bastards
Players -> 4,000+ man fight (servers live)
CCP -> \o/ *goes off for brennevin, goat testicles (cured in lactic acid), and the shark* Blink
Uninformed players -- WTF TiDi is ****!
Informed players -- no, actually it's loads better ... trust us on this
Uninformed players -- QQ
Informed players -- *facepalm*

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#6 - 2013-11-06 13:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
Frozen Chief wrote:
Is it actually physically impossible to do what the OP is asking for though?

I have no idea how any of this server stuff works, so try to bear with my ignorance... but is this not a hardware issue? As in if they had faster servers and better/more hardware to support it, could they in theory eliminate TIDI?

If so maybe they should indeed take the money they spend adding all this extra non-sense and put it towards that.


FYI: TQ runs on Military Grade hardware...I'll repeat that for the slow readers amongst us: Military Grade hardware.

Here's the article I suggest reading and then comment. Meet Tranquility, the military-grade 2,500GHZ monster that powers Eve Online

ALI fail posting again...here comes the ban for me!

EDIT:

Oh and ALI: I suggest you read up on TiDi and what it stands for, how revolutionary it is and what it does before you run your mouth of about getting "proper programmers and proper hardware" etc. Roll

If you spent even a fraction of the amount of time reading and researching rather than fail posting all over the forums you may actually be able to contribute to the community with an informed idea.

EDIT 2:

Requested a lock for ranting.

IB4TL

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#7 - 2013-11-06 13:29:25 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


Requested a lock for ranting.

IB4TL


Haven't seen him in ages ... wonder if he moved on to other forums Cool

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#8 - 2013-11-06 13:42:27 UTC
Tidi is awesome. No other game comes close to the player count that Eve can have in one place at a time. I can't even think of many games that can cope with having a Euro Player, a US player and an Australian player in the same place all shooting each other without some horrific lag breaking things.

Velicitia's post is bang on, every time CCP increase the hardware performance, people will just try and have a bigger fight.

Over time the hardware will inevitably be upgraded and performance will improve. However the game will get more complex and players will try and get more people in one fight and you'll end up with no real net difference. That is not CCP's fault.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#9 - 2013-11-06 13:49:31 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


Requested a lock for ranting.

IB4TL


Haven't seen him in ages ... wonder if he moved on to other forums Cool


Please don't say this, ISD are the saviors of our sanity and some peoples stupidity.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2013-11-06 14:04:43 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


Requested a lock for ranting.

IB4TL


Haven't seen him in ages ... wonder if he moved on to other forums Cool


Please don't say this, ISD are the saviors of our sanity and some peoples stupidity.


was actually talking about the character THE L0CKBlink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2013-11-06 14:13:09 UTC
ITT I learned tidi is a feature designed to increase lag. Thanks OP!
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-11-06 15:01:18 UTC
I had the experience of being on the KA6 node after it had been reinforced, and logging in after the node had crashed with only 300-500 in local. With all effects off, brackets off, and all settings at lowest, once I landed on the grid where the TItan should have been, all that was left was the countless thousands of drones (were these abandoned intentionally to cause the node to crash I wonder). At this point my fps was down to about 5.

It may sound extreme, but I'd suggest to CCP they get rid of drones entirely. Make all your capabilities and actions in both PVE and PVP dependant on what you can do with your ONE ship.

They could do less extreme things as well, such as when TIDI hits, all abandoned drones disappear instantly.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#13 - 2013-11-06 15:12:53 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
I had the experience of being on the KA6 node after it had been reinforced, and logging in after the node had crashed with only 300-500 in local. With all effects off, brackets off, and all settings at lowest, once I landed on the grid where the TItan should have been, all that was left was the countless thousands of drones (were these abandoned intentionally to cause the node to crash I wonder). At this point my fps was down to about 5.

It may sound extreme, but I'd suggest to CCP they get rid of drones entirely. Make all your capabilities and actions in both PVE and PVP dependant on what you can do with your ONE ship.

They could do less extreme things as well, such as when TIDI hits, all abandoned drones disappear instantly.
I doubt very much that the drone were abandoned on purpose. Those were just the drones that happened to be out when the server died (and drones of dead people). an inactive drone should not really be to heavy hitting on the server, since it's just inactive clutter. It will lag you clientside, if you have drone models and brackets on, both of which you can turn off, but it should have no effect (or a very minimal effect) on tidi.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#14 - 2013-11-06 15:37:24 UTC
I like the "military grade hardware" comment, better keep the flash arrays secret at work ;)

From what I understand a part of the issue is legacy code being heavily single threaded, flying In the face of lower clock/more cores which is the current flavour.

Would be nice to get another dev blog in state of hardware and plans.
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#15 - 2013-11-06 16:55:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Stallman
Frozen Chief wrote:
Is it actually physically impossible to do what the OP is asking for though?

I have no idea how any of this server stuff works, so try to bear with my ignorance... but is this not a hardware issue? As in if they had faster servers and better/more hardware to support it, could they in theory eliminate TIDI?

If so maybe they should indeed take the money they spend adding all this extra non-sense and put it towards that.


Tranquality is already the most ridiculously overpowered behemoth in the video gaming world, the undisputed king. There's an article about it you can find here.


Quote:
The funny thing was that, at the time, the technology only existed in the military so we had to get military clearance to go into a bunker in Texas to evaluate the hardware because the company, back then, had only just started looking into commercializing this thing that they made for the US army. We were one of first clients and they thought it was really funny that they went from building things for the army to something that's so completely light-hearted.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#16 - 2013-11-06 17:01:20 UTC
What interconnecta do they use on the cluster?
Sarah Stallman
Pen2 Logistics
#17 - 2013-11-06 17:42:02 UTC
I'm sure it depends on which connection you're talking, but the norm is probably 10GE.
Hesod Adee
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-11-06 18:46:26 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Well, they "could" solve it with more hardware (and they have in the past) ... but the biggest problem is the players.


I'm not sure they can. From what I've heard, Eves server code is single threaded. Which means what CCP needs is faster hardware.
However, the trend in server hardware is not to make it faster. It's to stick more cores in the server, as that's easier to do and works far better for multithreaded applications. So people write new server code to be multithreaded.

If CCP could make the server code multithreaded that would help a lot. However that is going to be a lot of work just to find out if that's even possible.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#19 - 2013-11-06 19:16:11 UTC
Hesod Adee wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Well, they "could" solve it with more hardware (and they have in the past) ... but the biggest problem is the players.


I'm not sure they can. From what I've heard, Eves server code is single threaded. Which means what CCP needs is faster hardware.
However, the trend in server hardware is not to make it faster. It's to stick more cores in the server, as that's easier to do and works far better for multithreaded applications. So people write new server code to be multithreaded.

If CCP could make the server code multithreaded that would help a lot. However that is going to be a lot of work just to find out if that's even possible.


Yeah, I know ... which is why I said "could". Went into greater detail in the other TiDi post a little while ago.

At this point, "more hardware" simply means "fewer systems per CPU core" than anything.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#20 - 2013-11-06 20:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
What CCP needs to realise is that advances in computing is trending further into parallel processing, multicore, etcetera.

Higher clock speeds have a limit, its not a technical limit, its a physical limit limited literally by the laws of physics. This is why tech companies abandoned the race to higher and higher clock speeds, because its got limited shelf life regardless of what super meta-materials are created and utilised.

CCP need to realise that they cant keep waiting and waiting for some company to try develop a higher clock speed processor. its not going to happen.

The problem of servers being overloaded is a problem halved if shared to other servers. Certain aspects of server load does this. but the main physics engine process is still single threaded and still tied to 1 core without the ability to be able to share the load with other servers when it becomes overloaded.

Unfortunately one of the other aspects of this sort of change is that if Eve Onlines server side code became multicore and multiserver capable, its hardware would not be in any way optimised for this, meaning CCP would have to purchase an entire new set of servers that could allow the software the resources its coded for.
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