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Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

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Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1361 - 2013-10-27 22:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Falin Whalen
PotatoOverdose wrote:
TL;DR of the last 60 pages:

CFC doesn't like it when people can steal their moon goo. :shocking:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

You haven't read the last ~60 pages then. The perpetually dim, such as yourself, are bleating, "Goon tears." Actual Goons are stating that this is the greatest griefing tool since remote doomsdays. 10% of moongoo will go poof raising moongoo prices, and since we have the largest player base in null, and most of the best moons(and largest stockpile of moongoo as well), we stand to gain the most from this little wonder toy than anybody else. What do we care that a few people will actually steal a few pennies from our pocket, when millions will flow into our pockets daily, from the very people bleating about "Goon tears."

Please continue to bleat, "Goon tears," while you line our pockets with ISK when you buy anything T2.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1362 - 2013-10-27 23:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Falin Whalen wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
TL;DR of the last 60 pages:

CFC doesn't like it when people can steal their moon goo. :shocking:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

You haven't read the last ~60 pages then. The perpetually dim, such as yourself, are bleating, "Goon tears." Actual Goons are stating that this is the greatest griefing tool since remote doomsdays. 10% of moongoo will go poof raising moongoo prices, and since we have the largest player base in null, and most of the best moons(and largest stockpile of moongoo as well), we stand to gain the most from this little wonder toy than anybody else. What do we care that a few people will actually steal a few pennies from our pocket, when millions will flow into our pockets daily, from the very people bleating about "Goon tears."

Please continue to bleat, "Goon tears," while you line our pockets with ISK when you buy anything T2.

On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1363 - 2013-10-27 23:24:37 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll

Newsflash, the CFC doesn't have a single hive mind. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and those opinions may differ.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1364 - 2013-10-27 23:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll

Newsflash, the CFC doesn't have a single hive mind. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and those opinions may differ.

So what you're saying is that no one actually knows how these changes will play out, and we should maybe see how they work on the live server before making unnecessary changes to siphons?

I can live with that.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#1365 - 2013-10-27 23:36:58 UTC
We should have like some place where we can discuss ideas and talk it over.

Like this thread.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1366 - 2013-10-28 00:28:59 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll

"Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say no more than ten to twenty million killed, tops. Uh, depending on the breaks. " -General "Buck" Turgidson

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1367 - 2013-10-28 02:04:36 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll

it's called reading, you know that thing they taught you in grade school? cause if you would have done such you would see that the siphon wont hurt the goons much because they have the numbers to keep their space clear of siphons however any smaller entity (ie 99% of low sec moon mining) doesn't have the numbers and will be hurt to the point that alot of them will simply stop moon mining...which in turn means that those able to prevent the theft (ie goons) get more isk due to less supply of moon minerals on the market. how many times must we provide the evidence before yall see the light?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1368 - 2013-10-28 02:24:35 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll

Newsflash, the CFC doesn't have a single hive mind. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and those opinions may differ.

So what you're saying is that no one actually knows how these changes will play out, and we should maybe see how they work on the live server before making unnecessary changes to siphons?

I can live with that.
As a griefing tool it is pretty clear how the current syphon mechanics will play out. Griefers are by nature pretty lazy and go for soft targets (valuable but easy to kill and or disrupt financially). The softest targets for this group will be lowsec operations which in most cases are not aligned with the CFC or any other major entity involved in moon mining, therefore often don't have the manpower to guard towers 24/7. These small operators getting taken out of the Goo industry is nothing more than profit for the bigger entities as their stockpiles alone will fetch higher prices than before and even with say a 20% reduction in their production (possible losses from the odd successful syphon). The large entities can't do anything but profit as they will be the only ones with product to sell.

Some have stated simply using syphon's to destroy moon goo by jetting syphoned product and popping cans. This too only helps the bigger groups. Less product + same demand = higher prices.

Final result, we all pay more for anything made from moon goo (and big stake holders just get richer)

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1369 - 2013-10-28 04:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.

And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1370 - 2013-10-28 05:06:45 UTC
Can't wait to hear about the larger siphons

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#1371 - 2013-10-28 09:04:27 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.


Sgt Ocker wrote:

As a griefing tool it is pretty clear how the current syphon mechanics will play out. Griefers are by nature pretty lazy and go for soft targets (valuable but easy to kill and or disrupt financially). The softest targets for this group will be lowsec operations which in most cases are not aligned with the CFC or any other major entity involved in moon mining, therefore often don't have the manpower to guard towers 24/7.


'Lowsec operations' aren't necessarily moon mining. A good chunk of T2 materials are produced from low-sec reaction farms, with very little mining taking place. That's the kind of operation that will suffer most from griefing.
Omega Flames
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1372 - 2013-10-28 10:14:12 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.

And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.

*wonders when I became mythological..does this mean I get to use Zeus's thunderbolt?

go wander around lowsec for a few jumps and you will find this mythological guy isn't as rare as you imply
Dagda Morr
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#1373 - 2013-10-28 11:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dagda Morr
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.

And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.


I don't think you know much about lowsec or null - there are plenty of small groups mining a bit of cadmium here or mercury there making a few hundred mil per tower. Big entities don't care abou those moons - the effort to take and hold them is not worth it.
You also have those guys that buy raw mins on buy orders, react it to add value and sell to sell orders in Jita - this is the prime way small to medium sized independant corps make money. Big groups cannot bear to shoot more POS's so ignore these towers.

However

Siphons in their current incarnation will allow large, organised groups to make swathes of low and npc null utterly worthless for this type of activity. Bearing in mind how much the cfc spent on grifing miners and jita, the trivial cost and small size of these units are made for spamming every reaction tower or mining tower in lowsec and npc null. We will likely take a bit of a hit but we are just going to organise to sweep our towers - we'll do it even though we hate it becasue it will drive up the profit for us to spend on making other people cry.

Siphons are not bad - we don't need a limit on them, they just need to be bigger and cost a bit more. When you can fill a blockade runner with a hundred for just a billion and shutdown a POS-based income in a constellation solo, ccp need to have a look if this is really what they want or intend.

Nullsec will adapt - the guys "intended" to be hurt by this will adapt, and they will make a point of abusing it until its nerfed just for the smug satisfaction of being right.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1374 - 2013-10-28 12:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah yes, the mythological small-entity moon miner. Much like the fabled unicorn of olde. It's simply heartwarming to see all of the larger moon mining entities rise up to the defense of the little man.

And of course, these small-entity moon miners control the most valuable of low sec moons and would naturally be the first targets of so-called griefers, unlike all of the big entities which content themselves with the more worthless moons. You lot are truly magnanimous.

Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.

As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. And the threshold for unprofitability is low. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them.

Between grief players targeting smaller corps (as these are the softest and easiest targets) and large alliances incentivizing the use of siphons on their competitors it has now become extremely easy to knock out the smaller moon owners out of the way.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1375 - 2013-10-28 12:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rakshasa Taisab
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.

As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them.

You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays...

Nyan
Dagda Morr
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#1376 - 2013-10-28 12:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dagda Morr
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.

As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them.

You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays...


The simple reactants have to come from somewhere......
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#1377 - 2013-10-28 12:59:08 UTC
Dagda Morr wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays...


The simple reactants have to come from somewhere......

Only endpoints can be siphoned, so just do the simple reaction as an input to the complex, nothing will be stolen.

Nyan
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1378 - 2013-10-28 12:59:17 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Mythological? I'd wager that at least in lo sec, the vast majority of non-goo producing moons are held by small corporations and alliances. And these moons are where the bulk of T2 reactions take place.

As a reaction moon owner falling under "small corporations", I can tell you with confidence I will close shop if I get hit with these to the point where it is no longer profitable, as I simply cannot babysit my moons 24/7, unlike the larger alliances. It's not hard to see how the introduction of syphons will end benefiting the largest alliances, not hurting them.

You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays...YET

Fixed.

In any case, I wasn't referring to complex reactions alone. You need moon and intermediate materials for complex reactions. The effect trickles up.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Mister McDerp
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1379 - 2013-10-28 13:38:18 UTC
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
Dagda Morr wrote:
Rakshasa Taisab wrote:
You can't siphon from complex reaction arrays...


The simple reactants have to come from somewhere......

Only endpoints can be siphoned, so just do the simple reaction as an input to the complex, nothing will be stolen.


Fairly sure that is wrong, it will steal from the simple reaction as it is "unloading" into the silo.
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1380 - 2013-10-28 14:28:54 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

On the one hand you guys say this change will do nothing, that your colossal manpower and alts will render these siphons impotent.

On the other hand you say that these same impotent siphons will raise prices, even though they are "impotent," and won't accomplish anything.

Cognitive dissonance much? Roll


Something can be ****** for everyone while still being significantly more ****** for you than it is for me.