These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: No Honor Among Thieves - Siphon Units in Rubicon

First post First post First post
Author
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1281 - 2013-10-23 01:43:03 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Hmm… 30 pages of Goon Tears and no additional dev response. Straight

FTFY.

The last 30 pages have mostly been a CFC whine and cheese reception. Page by page, every page.

Geee, I wonder why the entity that holds most of the valuable moons would be opposed to a nerf leveled squarely at moon holders. Roll

TBH, it reminds me of all the PL and Raiden tears on the forums after the Super nerf. Man, the nerf bat's a bich, aint it? Cool

30 pages of whining?? I've been following this thread pretty closely and only seen a few posts from a couple of different goons. None of which was complaining about the mechanic and why would they it is only going to make their moons more valuable. Goons won't be targeted in any major way by syphons.

I still believe syphons should require the person running it to be online, in system and uncloaked. Thieves should not simply be handed the win by spending 10 mil isk, there should be some risk involved (aside from losing the 10 mil isk)

Yeah, bull. Page 63 -> 9 CFC posts, Page 62 -> 7 CFC posts, Page 61 -> 8 CFC posts, Page 60 -> 7 CFC posts.
And on and on it continues. If you can't see it, then you should get your eyes checked.

40% of all the posts in this thread are made by members of the CFC, and the vast majority of the "negative feedback" is coming from CFC members. The CFC have most of the moons worth siphoning, so they absolutely will be targeted, as there's (almost) no one else to siphon.

If siphons should require the person anchoring them to be online, so should all moon harvesters, refineries, research labs labs, CSAA's, and anything else you can anchor on a pos. That idea is bad and you should feel bad.
Could you link me some of the negative feedback these goon toons are posting, I can't seem to find a lot. Yes they have posted a lot, mainly trolling trolls.
1; You aren't anchoring anything on the pos,
2; Why should someone dropping a syphon be able to gain passive isk?
3; There are too many in this thread who (wrongly) believe Pos mining is "passive" income.
4; Placing syphons is too risk free and needs some sort of balance, risk vs reward.
4; CCP have stated they want to lessen the impact of this so called passive income and redistribute the assets but is creating another form of passive income really the way to go?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1282 - 2013-10-23 02:22:45 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned

Shooting at stationary structures is boring

Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring

See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool


Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it

See: everything involving starbases.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1283 - 2013-10-23 03:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Falin Whalen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Lessons learned

Shooting at stationary structures is boring

Waking up every morning and having to clean up the mess made while you were asleep is boring

See: station ping-pong pre-sov, repairing station services. Having to do something tedious every day before you can actually play the game is not cool


Making something tedious will not stop players doing it if it's very clearly the best option. They'll do it, and they'll hate it

See: everything involving starbases.

The CFC likes to fight on the principle of no fun allowed.


This is great

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#1284 - 2013-10-23 05:49:05 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
To ANYONE upset about these siphon units

Medium and Heavy units are next

They will target advanced components from complex reactions as well as fullerines

You might as well save some tears for that...


Was this info given out at Eve Vegas, or is there some other place we could confirm?



yes, but if you read the original dev blog it was right there. I have quoted it for you in case you missed it:

This hopefully gives you a good overview of how siphon units will function. We’re looking into more versions of siphon units to add later (like in Rubicon 1.1). Larger variations would steal more, but take more room and potentially cost fuel to run. Other variations could steal additional types of materials, such as complex reactions or polymer reactions.
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1285 - 2013-10-23 05:58:20 UTC
why should the siphon bother with a limited amount of theft in moon goo. why not just emulate the behavior of POCO? a siphon is just a tax for the non vigilant? or can we make poco tax in minerals instead of isk, with a limited hopper - after all its all the same thing, right?
Andrea Griffin
#1286 - 2013-10-23 13:11:21 UTC
CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.

These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1287 - 2013-10-23 14:12:23 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.

These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next?
Sorry but where do you get the idea moon mining is passive?
Basically what your asking for is ways to increase your ability for making passive income.

To all those who believe moon mining is easy isk and passive.. Go set up a few pos's and try it for a month, be prepared to not be able to do much of anything else though

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1288 - 2013-10-23 15:20:46 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.

These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next?

If by "angry," you mean fabulously wealthy, then yes, please continue with this. You do realize that by making 10-20% of moongoo go poof, you raise the price of moongoo. If we hold the majority of good moons, where does the majority of the money go to buy the moongoo? That is right, right into our pockets. What do we care that a few pennies are stolen, here and there, from our money vault, by those that will actually get to steal some moongoo from us.

Please continue to bleat, "Goon Tears," as you continue to shove money into our pockets

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1289 - 2013-10-23 15:34:02 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:
CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.

These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next?

If by "angry," you mean fabulously wealthy, then yes, please continue with this. You do realize that by making 10-20% of moongoo go poof, you raise the price of moongoo. If we hold the majority of good moons, where does the majority of the money go to buy the moongoo? That is right, right into our pockets. What do we care that a few pennies are stolen, here and there, from our money vault, by those that will actually get to steal some moongoo from us.

Please continue to bleat, "Goon Tears," as you continue to shove money into our pockets


That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1290 - 2013-10-23 15:39:46 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time.


Tell us more about nullsec warfare, bro.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1291 - 2013-10-23 15:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Zakhin Desver wrote:
To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduce the number of people to peeveepee.

There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#1292 - 2013-10-23 15:47:26 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduces the number of people to peeveepee.

There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.


Nailed it.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Orakkus
Southern Cross Monopoly
Flying Dangerous
#1293 - 2013-10-23 15:48:23 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:

That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time.


A lot of wishful thinking here. We HOPE that this is how it will play out. With the change to how many a particular pilot can drop (and I hope CCP also does not allow trial accounts to place them either, which may already be the case depending on the skillset required), that has improved the chances that it will be just that.

The big problem is with Goonswarm's moon operations being so large, along with the amount of actual space they cover with their coalition friends, that it will be harder to "hurt" Goonswarm. Remember, the sweet underside of Goonswarm is going to be deeper into null-sec and will require more time and effort to maintain a presence that could hurt them. To be fair, Goonswarm probably has more to worry about from blues than it will ever have to fear from opponents in the long term.

Now, that being said, I am not saying it isn't possible that this could be the bane of Goonswarm. It is just that Goonswarm has a lot of advantages that are above and beyond a typical alliance. In addition, what Falin wrote is also very correct. Any disturbance that causes market prices to increase will benefit Goonswarm, at least in the short term. Potentially, Goonswarm could be hurt by long term concerted efforts to KEEP siphoning Goonswarm moons.. but that would require a significant level of organization. Though, it is doable.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1294 - 2013-10-23 15:56:51 UTC
Zakhin Desver wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:
CCP, if you're making Goonswarm this angry, you must be doing something right. Please continue.

These Siphons should encourage people who run moon mining operations to be active in their space. I hope to see more capabilities against passive income streams in the future. Will I be able to deploy a hacker module and steal researching BPOs next?

If by "angry," you mean fabulously wealthy, then yes, please continue with this. You do realize that by making 10-20% of moongoo go poof, you raise the price of moongoo. If we hold the majority of good moons, where does the majority of the money go to buy the moongoo? That is right, right into our pockets. What do we care that a few pennies are stolen, here and there, from our money vault, by those that will actually get to steal some moongoo from us.

Please continue to bleat, "Goon Tears," as you continue to shove money into our pockets


That's correct if we assume you will be the only ones not being affected by the theft of resources. To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

The term is "overstretching", you can't attack and defend everything at the same time.
Let's just say that we are in a better position to do just that, than everyone else.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Zakhin Desver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1295 - 2013-10-23 16:00:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakhin Desver
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduce the number of people to peeveepee.

There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.


Nice, because the waste of time and the inability to do PVP was one of your reasons to nerf the syphons. I love you guys. After 20 more pages the syphons probably will be boosted thanks to your posts.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1296 - 2013-10-23 16:57:13 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Zakhin Desver wrote:
To achieve such thing, you should have patrols at all times, which reduces the number of effectives to do real PVP, therefore other alliances can take advantage of your greed for moongoo.

Confirming trial alts logged out at POSes reduces the number of people to peeveepee.

There is a clear optimal solution to having your towers siphoned, and it doesn't involve real people wasting their time flying from POS to POS to POS. It is also probably the worst example of pointless timewaster mechanic CCP has implemented so far.


Nailed it.

There's some chaps who love timewaster mechanics.

Structure shoots

Reinforcement timers

Blueballing

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1297 - 2013-10-23 17:04:33 UTC
Please CCP, don't throw us in that there briar patch.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

Icesail
Ganja Clade
Triumvirate.
#1298 - 2013-10-23 18:58:03 UTC
With all this bitching and moaning on both ends of the stick, this initial addition of siphoning to the game will have little effect to garnering more interaction via pvp.. It does however give those with moons an opportunity to over inflate the price. Given that we currently don't know what current stockpile that the majority moon holders have. The prices could already be over inflated because they're sitting on it. Even if someone drops a siphon on a pos, it takes only from the harvesting array. Not the silo (which would be A LOT more interesting which would justify the complaining in this forum).
If any group that will take advantage of this first iteration of moon goo siphoning, it will be the large alliances that have the resources to flood the eve world with the siphons on their enemies..
I won't benefit from siphons this time but I hope CCP moves it in a direction going forward to actually benefit the small groups. I know that I was excited to first hear of guerrilla warfare and siphoning but it certainly isn't as grandiose as they would like you to believe.. CCP's idea of guerrilla warfare is weak as well..
Orakkus
Southern Cross Monopoly
Flying Dangerous
#1299 - 2013-10-23 19:09:24 UTC
Icesail wrote:
I won't benefit from siphons this time but I hope CCP moves it in a direction going forward to actually benefit the small groups. I know that I was excited to first hear of guerrilla warfare and siphoning but it certainly isn't as grandiose as they would like you to believe.. CCP's idea of guerrilla warfare is weak as well..


The threadnaught on this is pretty big, so you can easily miss the part where CCP indicates that it does not classify this mobile unit as part of any "guerilla warfare". They mostly were referring to the warp accerlation and speed changes as well as the mobile cyno jammer unit.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Icesail
Ganja Clade
Triumvirate.
#1300 - 2013-10-23 19:53:06 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Icesail wrote:
I won't benefit from siphons this time but I hope CCP moves it in a direction going forward to actually benefit the small groups. I know that I was excited to first hear of guerrilla warfare and siphoning but it certainly isn't as grandiose as they would like you to believe.. CCP's idea of guerrilla warfare is weak as well..


The threadnaught on this is pretty big, so you can easily miss the part where CCP indicates that it does not classify this mobile unit as part of any "guerilla warfare". They mostly were referring to the warp accerlation and speed changes as well as the mobile cyno jammer unit.


I caught it in the post from CCP. I was pointing out that I as well as others thought it was going to be part of guerrilla warfare when it was first announced. I was disappointed when they said otherwise. Ultimately the first iteration of the siphoning is a minor nuisance to some and a waste of time for making isk. One can only hope that CCP does better on the progression of this potentially game changing addition.

The 2 additions for guerrilla warfare are weak. CCP, shake it up instead of the little girls fart you're currently giving us!