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[Rubicon] Interceptors

First post
Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#61 - 2013-10-02 18:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
I cannot believe you are all that bad that you don't complain about crusader.
Tell me more. While i agree that claw somewhat needs it, the crusader with his damage projections is perfectly fine with just 2 mids.


Nah, I totally disagree. There's no reason to use a Crusader over a Slicer, ever. Damage projection on small Pulse even when fitting for optimal is only ~13km. Your entire engagement range is wasted either on a point or by being in neut range. You have no counter to neuting (no utility high, no utility mid for a cap booster) and no ability to counter web or TD. I can't really fathom any time when I would use a Crusader... at all.

-Liang

Ed: I want to note that the new suggestion from Fozzie simply does not address any of the reasons why the Crusader is simply not a usable ship.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Naomi Anthar
#62 - 2013-10-02 18:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
I cannot believe you are all that bad that you don't complain about crusader.
Tell me more. While i agree that claw somewhat needs it, the crusader with his damage projections is perfectly fine with just 2 mids.


I will tell you more ... claw is WAY BETTER THAN Crusader . Now and after this change. really if you think that 7,5% tracking bonus will make crusader actually hitting stuff. Then damn ....... Story is simple - WEB OR OPTIMAL range. I fly almost only laser ships and i know what im talking about. I pvp actively. And i know exactly what i'm talking about. Both small scale and completly solo.

"Perfectly fine with just 2 mids" - tell me , TELL ME - do you fly Crusader if you think its fine with 2 mids ? I guess no as noone flies Crusader unless he is noob or making some lols.

EDIT : I'm disguested with some people who say crusader is ok. Goddamn you are terrible.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#63 - 2013-10-02 18:21:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Helicity Boson wrote:
The summary here, is that no pirate will be able to catch a smaller vessel once it warps to a gate/far away point

And no pirate fleet will ever escape a FW blob again, due to the fact FW can deploy interceptors to tackle them on gate, and pirates can not.

This seems a bit lopsided to me.


Again, 17k ehp maledictions


This number sounds made up.


You can already fit maledictions to 12.5k ehp. Probably more like 14-15ish with the 4th low actually.
PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-10-02 18:22:24 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
I cannot believe you are all that bad that you don't complain about crusader.
Tell me more. While i agree that claw somewhat needs it, the crusader with his damage projections is perfectly fine with just 2 mids.


I will tell you more ... claw is WAY BETTER THAN Crusader . Now and after this change. really if you think that 7,5% tracking bonus will make crusader actually hitting stuff. Then damn ....... Story is simple - WEB OR OPTIMAL range. I fly almost only laser ships and i know what im talking about. I pvp actively. And i know exactly what i'm talking about. Both small scale and completly solo.

"Perfectly fine with just 2 mids" - tell me , TELL ME - do you fly Crusader if you think its fine with 2 mids ? I guess no as noone flies Crusader unless he is noob or making some lols.

EDIT : I'm disguested with some people who say crusader is ok. Goddamn you are terrible.


Uh, I have, and did fly one just fine for a bit. It's not worse than the Retribution, you just have to keep it's propensities in mind when you fly it. If you want a dedicated tackler, get the Vengence, that's literally how the roles are different.

Crusader is pretty simply, burn in, grab point, turn off mwd and orbit close while apply deeps.

Problem solved. I'm really not sure why people ***** about only having 2 mids, 2 mids is fine if you're not terrible and think every ship needs a point/web combo.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#65 - 2013-10-02 18:26:21 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:

Problem solved. I'm really not sure why people ***** about only having 2 mids, 2 mids is fine if you're not terrible and think every ship needs a point/web combo.


Probably because they've spent a fair amount of time actually flying the ship or flying frigates. The idea that you just MWD straight up to someone and orbit with the MWD off for great success is simply laughable. You can't run your guns because you have no cap, you can't keep range because you're scrammed + webbed, and you have no tank because you're in an interceptor.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Aranel Zirachii
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#66 - 2013-10-02 18:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aranel Zirachii
Reading through all the posts i kind of agree with the majority here

Interceptors need at least 3 midslots period if you want them to have any kind of tackle usage.
1 slot for a MWD (required)
1 slot for a scram/disruptor (required)
Then 1 slot to fit either a sensor booster or a web.

Leaving the ceptor with 2 midslots limits the decision making in fits and makes them become a non-choice when wondering which ceptor to fly.

If you want to make one ceptor of each class a tackle and one a combat then remove the disruptor bonuses off the combat ones and make them combat, don't beat around the bush.


Second is the lock range.
I feel half/half on this because i agree that the lock range needs to be realistic on a class that can be out of lock range in 1-2 seconds easily, but i also agree that you don't want to make the class to easy, there should be some skill involved in flying it. Taking into account fleet bonuses and stuff balancing this is understandably a pain in the butt.

Overall though this is definitely a step in the right direction. Good job!
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2013-10-02 18:28:31 UTC
Crusader + Claw.

Combat interceptors.

Two mids.

We had no reason to fly them before, especial with the buffed Executioner and Slasher.

What reason do we have for flying them now.

Amarr and Minmatar fleet interceptors make better combat interceptors than the combat interceptors.

No change.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.

Naomi Anthar
#68 - 2013-10-02 18:29:32 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
I cannot believe you are all that bad that you don't complain about crusader.
Tell me more. While i agree that claw somewhat needs it, the crusader with his damage projections is perfectly fine with just 2 mids.


I will tell you more ... claw is WAY BETTER THAN Crusader . Now and after this change. really if you think that 7,5% tracking bonus will make crusader actually hitting stuff. Then damn ....... Story is simple - WEB OR OPTIMAL range. I fly almost only laser ships and i know what im talking about. I pvp actively. And i know exactly what i'm talking about. Both small scale and completly solo.

"Perfectly fine with just 2 mids" - tell me , TELL ME - do you fly Crusader if you think its fine with 2 mids ? I guess no as noone flies Crusader unless he is noob or making some lols.

EDIT : I'm disguested with some people who say crusader is ok. Goddamn you are terrible.


Uh, I have, and did fly one just fine for a bit. It's not worse than the Retribution, you just have to keep it's propensities in mind when you fly it. If you want a dedicated tackler, get the Vengence, that's literally how the roles are different.

Crusader is pretty simply, burn in, grab point, turn off mwd and orbit close while apply deeps.

Problem solved. I'm really not sure why people ***** about only having 2 mids, 2 mids is fine if you're not terrible and think every ship needs a point/web combo.


Orbit close ? You just proved you are liar ... you never used Crusader - once you turn off MWD in NON DUAL PROP SHIP WITHOUT WEB - you are not orbiting unless its Dread or Carrier.

In situation you just mentioned one of following will happen - you will get neuted - no NOS or cap booster (not many mids right ?)
AND/OR you get webbed ... surprisingly now you are not THAT fast anymore, especially that you are not dual prop and without web - your opponent will orbit your pitiful Crusader not the other way.

Lets be honest there is nothing good about Crusader right now. NOTHING. Ship is garbage in every imaginable way. Was expecting huge buff, got just fittings. Sigh ....
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#69 - 2013-10-02 18:30:38 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
I cannot believe you are all that bad that you don't complain about crusader.
Tell me more. While i agree that claw somewhat needs it, the crusader with his damage projections is perfectly fine with just 2 mids.


I will tell you more ... claw is WAY BETTER THAN Crusader . Now and after this change. really if you think that 7,5% tracking bonus will make crusader actually hitting stuff. Then damn ....... Story is simple - WEB OR OPTIMAL range. I fly almost only laser ships and i know what im talking about. I pvp actively. And i know exactly what i'm talking about. Both small scale and completly solo.

"Perfectly fine with just 2 mids" - tell me , TELL ME - do you fly Crusader if you think its fine with 2 mids ? I guess no as noone flies Crusader unless he is noob or making some lols.

EDIT : I'm disguested with some people who say crusader is ok. Goddamn you are terrible.


Uh, I have, and did fly one just fine for a bit. It's not worse than the Retribution, you just have to keep it's propensities in mind when you fly it. If you want a dedicated tackler, get the Vengence, that's literally how the roles are different.

Crusader is pretty simply, burn in, grab point, turn off mwd and orbit close while apply deeps.

Problem solved. I'm really not sure why people ***** about only having 2 mids, 2 mids is fine if you're not terrible and think every ship needs a point/web combo.


Honestly if you don't know anything about frig combat don't reply.

You can kill a crusader easily in most properly fitted t1 frigs. and if you can't you can just leave most of the time...

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Aikar Nahrnid
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2013-10-02 18:31:13 UTC
Raptor with hybrids only... It should have Ishukone skin.
Pertuabo Enkidgan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-10-02 18:31:49 UTC
I'm gonna miss the extra highslot for malediction, I love running nosferatu on it.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#72 - 2013-10-02 18:45:32 UTC
Well, we've now got not just one, but two point range-bonused hulls with bonuses to light missiles. Just what the frigate pvp meta needed.

In the absence of a change to light missiles, **** is about to get stupid.
--
Claw and crusader are still bad, are outdone for most purposes by the slicer/firetail. Combat interceptors in general need a conceptual change away from second-rate AFs (the taranis works because it goes stupid fast and has a stupid amount of dps for its class. The others are also fast. Not so much with the stupidly high dps, though). Scram-range tackler would be good.
Kadesh Priestess
Goryn Clade
#73 - 2013-10-02 18:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadesh Priestess
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
I cannot believe you are all that bad that you don't complain about crusader.
Tell me more. While i agree that claw somewhat needs it, the crusader with his damage projections is perfectly fine with just 2 mids.
"Perfectly fine with just 2 mids" - tell me , TELL ME - do you fly Crusader if you think its fine with 2 mids ?
Last time i logged in to actually fly - i used crusader. And yes, it's totally fine, my 1k solo kills with it whisper you that i know small ship balance on a decent level.

And no, claw is much worse because if distance stabilizes at ~7-9k after getting into scram range, claw is effectively dead despite its super awesome EM resist - because it can't project its damage as well as crusader does, and can't get closer (if it can, then it has no tank and will die horribly).

Liang Nuren wrote:
Nah, I totally disagree. There's no reason to use a Crusader over a Slicer, ever. Damage projection on small Pulse even when fitting for optimal is only ~13km. Your entire engagement range is wasted either on a point or by being in neut range. You have no counter to neuting (no utility high, no utility mid for a cap booster) and no ability to counter web or TD. I can't really fathom any time when I would use a Crusader... at all.
In lowsec - maybe. For nullsec, speed and signature difference makes a big deal. 4500-5200 with 1-2 speedmods and 70 sig, it's more than decent for sort of safe navigation.

Crusader is perfect ship for killing tacklers trying to catch you (in the 1 vs many situation, up to 50 ppl) - good speed to mitigate damage, decent dps across scram range. Maybe only daredevil has comparable effectiveness - less speed, more vulnerable, but higher projection/damage output with rails.

Given that you attempt to project your damage above 10k - i suppose you're doing it wrong. Crusader is midrange brawler - it gets into fight at 10km; it can't control distance vs 3-mid interceptors, but the initial distance is your advantage. You can easily kill taranises and other frigs by dealing critical damage before they get into their effective range; when they get into range, you switch ammo within just blink of an eye and finish it off.

I find fight between crusader and taranis as really good example of interesting balance. If both pilots are capable, crusader has better chances of winning, despite the fact crusader has 2 mids.
Naomi Anthar
#74 - 2013-10-02 18:51:01 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Crusader is perfect ship


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Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures
#75 - 2013-10-02 18:51:15 UTC
I was terrified you were going to change the slot layouts. I did not want to have to refit dozens of ships.

overall, my ares just got buffed, and my taranis will continue to collect dust outside of special situations. a bit more lock range is nice. glad you didn't go overboard with it.

+1, very happy with the changes.
Ransu Asanari
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#76 - 2013-10-02 18:51:23 UTC
Malediction getting light missile bonus.
Crow being swapped to Fleet interceptor, getting a midslot, bonus to warp disruption range.

I'm literally dancing at my desk!

Hoping the increased targeting range on the Crow is enough to let you start locking target as you approach, and then be able to apply warp disruption at the increased range now provided by the bonus which was previously on the Raptor.
Metal Icarus
Wraithguard.
The Wraithguard.
#77 - 2013-10-02 18:52:38 UTC
Crow getting 4 mids now? Missile velocity as base bonus? Getting range bonus

-SUPER CONDOR-
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#78 - 2013-10-02 18:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
GREAT CHANGES!

I absolutely love how you guys are giving Roden ships selectable missile or turret damage, and these will perform in much the same way a few Minmatar fleet ships will.

+1

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#79 - 2013-10-02 18:55:08 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
I find fight between crusader and taranis as really good example of interesting balance. If both pilots are capable, crusader has better chances of winning, despite the fact crusader has 2 mids.


Just.. How would you lose a fight against a Crusader in a taranis?

Inside scram range the taranis is twice as fast, has better tracking and far more dps..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Nyack
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2013-10-02 18:56:34 UTC
I think the changes to the claw isnt enough. Why cant it get one more midslot?