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Dev Blog: Player Owned Customs offices in Hi-Sec

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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#401 - 2013-10-03 21:51:29 UTC
on that note -- ccp please let us name customs offices so I can call all mine DEAD COOLANT STORAGE
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#402 - 2013-10-03 22:03:03 UTC
I heard you got PI problems and I feel for ya son. I got 99 problems but coolant ain't one.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Kazaam Richtofen Richthofen
Spinning Arms
#403 - 2013-10-03 22:07:20 UTC
Ok, first time I have posted in 2 years of playing.

My thought is where do I ally with GOONS (without costing me 100's of millions) so they let me keep up my 3 character PI investments :) ......

Sure, it's going to be "odd" for a while, not fearing it really unless the "Uber Corps" get control of everything and bleed us nubs. I really hope CCP puts a cap on the taxes which can be levied as well or I could see some corps whom think they "Control" the system putting 100% taxes out there to drive others out. (then again, you always got jet option)

I only do it for the corp (give everything to the corp) for POS fuel, so hope this doesn't backfire on CCP.
Kropotkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#404 - 2013-10-03 22:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kropotkin
Promiscuous Female wrote:
on that note -- ccp please let us name customs offices so I can call all mine DEAD COOLANT STORAGE

I think you had a typo: should be DEAD GOOLANT STORAGE, no?
Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#405 - 2013-10-03 22:36:08 UTC
Soulpirate wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:
Soulpirate wrote:

So, if you say, I dunno... wanted to hold all the lava planets in HS and lock everyone out to drive
up the resource prices, you should be paying through the nose to hold all those inactive POCO's.


you already have because your POCO cost you 100m isk to make and upgrade. If no one uses it, you have 5, 10, 20% of sweet FA

You're confusing startup costs with operating costs of which there is none atm for the POCO owner.

No standing required + No operating cost to the POCO owner = Needs fixing

However, it wont change, because the people who hatched this idea are the very ones who plan
on abusing it.


Working as intended. As the nice shiney video said... the empires are loosing their grasp...

Man up, form an alliance of your own and take what you want... this is EvE Online, not CareBear Countdown.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#406 - 2013-10-03 23:15:48 UTC
Mel Hython wrote:
Please, stop to giving more and more part of the game to the large corps/alliances.



Why would they stop that? Watching youtube videos while afk mining isn't content. Player owned structures are.

I hear Star Citizen is going to have single player universes and dance emotes. Maybe it's time you donated some cash to that rip-off of a Star Trek Online clone and start waiting for your solo day in the sun?
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#407 - 2013-10-03 23:44:10 UTC
They're not giving us anything. We're taking it from your cold, dead hands.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Ramman K'arojic
Lone Star Warriors
Brave Collective
#408 - 2013-10-04 00:31:22 UTC
Roime wrote:
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
There a BIG issues with this concept and no options for the player; bottom line its short sighted.

Why cant we have some of following to counter balance this:

  • Option to pack up and move on - uproot your PI, your infrastructure and just move to a new planet.
  • Have more than 1 installation on a planet - I don't want to have to manage relationships with up to 6 different POCO owners.
  • Allow the installation of basic defences eg like POS defences. But severely limited to that CPU/PG around the POCO so they take more than a 3 man corp. to pop.
  • Limit introduction of this to 0.5 and 0.6 to begin with.


Cheers
Ramm.


Here's an option for you

1. make friends
2. put up your own pocos before others
3. train the skill
4. enjoy lower taxes than before
5. get free pvp if someone decs you

but I know, effort doesn't work in hisec, but still, you guys are baffling.



You don’t get seem to understand. In eve I like what I do in the sand pit and toys I play with; its part my business strategy which pays the bills for stuff. What this change means I now need to relate to other players and be confident that they won’t suddenly transfer ownership to someone else, change taxes; and they won’t get popped; which leaves me with a disruption to my operations.
Lets do an scenario. Say planet x has POCO owned by Corp X. I want to use the POCO so all good. After a little while someone decs Corp x; and pops the POCO. Who doesn’t tell me and suddenly I am left with goods I can get in; and getting out is expensive. This war doesn’t involve me; and now it’s my problem that I can’t get goods in or out – that’s what I don’t see as reasonable.

Going back my wish list – this isn’t about avoiding conflict – this is being able to avoid being screwed over with no recourse except war and having reasonable chance to move stuff; especially when its not my fight.
As for Free PVP - stuck in the leading edge of the time zones means that I never likely to find them or vice versa.
Soulpirate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#409 - 2013-10-04 03:06:34 UTC
Khador Vess wrote:
Soulpirate wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:
Soulpirate wrote:

So, if you say, I dunno... wanted to hold all the lava planets in HS and lock everyone out to drive
up the resource prices, you should be paying through the nose to hold all those inactive POCO's.


you already have because your POCO cost you 100m isk to make and upgrade. If no one uses it, you have 5, 10, 20% of sweet FA

You're confusing startup costs with operating costs of which there is none atm for the POCO owner.

No standing required + No operating cost to the POCO owner = Needs fixing

However, it wont change, because the people who hatched this idea are the very ones who plan
on abusing it.


Working as intended. As the nice shiney video said... the empires are loosing their grasp...

Man up, form an alliance of your own and take what you want... this is EvE Online, not CareBear Countdown.

You really get confused easilly don't you?

This is a feedback thread, there is no "working as intended" yet.

CCP is always looking for more isk sinks, this is a great opportunity to add one in the form
of upkeep costs for POCO's in high security space.
Draekas Darkwater
Frank Exchange of Views
#410 - 2013-10-04 03:19:58 UTC
I like the entire idea, with the exception of the wardec shield making it worthless to attack any large entity holding the poco you want.

I propose instead, a Casus Belli mechanic be added to EVE, such that any corp that owns a high sec poco may be wardecced free of charge.
DeAira Skord
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#411 - 2013-10-04 04:15:31 UTC
Taxes are being increased in hisec for those doing PI.

Why are they being punished?

Sulforan Drakken
Havenstead Industrial Research
#412 - 2013-10-04 04:49:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sulforan Drakken
This game is a business, and it exists to make money for the owners.

The owners need to survey account statistics and look at how many accounts share the same IP (usually indicates one person with multiple accounts).

Look at how many characters (each account may have three, correct?)belong to NPC corporations AND how long they have been in NPC corporations. I've been looking at the info I can see via the "employment history" of characters in game, and the number of characters who've been in NPC corporations, for several years or more, and have never been in a player corporation, is significant.

Additionally, look at how many characters belong to player corporations, headquartered in high security space.

I'm 55 yrs old in RL, and have been involved with games longer than a percentage of you have been alive...my experience is that the "feedback" often used to make judgements about changing game mechanics is based on the vocal majority -- ie. the loudest few, while a very significant number of your paying customers rarely spend much time reading the forums, much less posting.

If you do not look at the number of paying customers who spend the majority of their time in high security space -- which may not be the majority, but is very significant number -- then this is failure for you.

If you do not look at this as something which can be categorized as: "...if it ain't broke don't fix it..." then this is failure for you.

If you think that by implementing such a change, then looking at player numbers afterwards, and surmising "See we've not lost a lot of revenue..." -- another failure for you. Many people pay for their subscriptions for months in advance, some for 6 or 12 months at a time, so when they start feeling that the game/product they are paying for is slowly becoming something they no longer want, it may take awhile before you see changes in the number of paying subscriptions.

You advertise this game (product) as a sandbox where a person has limitless possibilities, and can do pretty much whatever they want to, if they are willing to put in the effort/time/money, etc. Now you seem to be staring on a path which will alienate a significant portion of your paying customers -- and again this is failure for you.
Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
#413 - 2013-10-04 05:54:52 UTC
Ramman K'arojic wrote:

Lets do an scenario. Say planet x has POCO owned by Corp X. I want to use the POCO so all good. After a little while someone decs Corp x; and pops the POCO. Who doesn’t tell me and suddenly I am left with goods I can get in; and getting out is expensive. This war doesn’t involve me; and now it’s my problem that I can’t get goods in or out – that’s what I don’t see as reasonable.


This made me realize a potential grieving scenario:


  1. Big nullsec alliance rolls new alt corp and takes over all POCO you use.
  2. Corp sets POCO tax to 100% for bad and neutral standing, but very reasonable good standing rate.
  3. Corp offers you to buy good standing POCO access for $$$
  4. After you pay and get good standing, corp gets wardec by another alt corp which destroys POCO and installs its own
  5. GOTO 2

Hulasikali Walla
Brave Nubs
#414 - 2013-10-04 06:19:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Hulasikali Walla
Nocxi wrote:
I haven't read all the post, but no one seems to be bringing up a big point CCP has misses. Is the same standing requirement for POS in HiSec going to apply for POCO? If no, then why not? I am assuming there isn't, because it would have been said. That doesn't make any sense what so ever. So a corp/alliance with a -5 standing to Gallente can't put up a POS in 0.5 space for research, but Gallente is ok with the same corp/alliance putting up a POCO in 1.0 space and tax their own people to export items from their planet in their controlled space? How can that be justified? So a corp is considered enemies of a nation, and shot on site in HiSec can still put up a POCO and tax their people? Am I the only one that has a problem with this?


Your not alone, we're 2 Blink

Mangala Solaris wrote:
Shamus en Divalone wrote:
In order to erect a new POCO for a corporation in high sec would standings with that empire be required?


No.


.... Thanks for the nicely argumentated response

Standing required for POS, Standing not required for POCO ?
Why don't CCP get rid of the standing altogether ?
Kialopreyst
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#415 - 2013-10-04 07:51:27 UTC
Kazaam Richtofen Richthofen wrote:
Ok, first time I have posted in 2 years of playing.

My thought is where do I ally with GOONS (without costing me 100's of millions) so they let me keep up my 3 character PI investments :) ......

Sure, it's going to be "odd" for a while, not fearing it really unless the "Uber Corps" get control of everything and bleed us nubs. I really hope CCP puts a cap on the taxes which can be levied as well or I could see some corps whom think they "Control" the system putting 100% taxes out there to drive others out. (then again, you always got jet option)

I only do it for the corp (give everything to the corp) for POS fuel, so hope this doesn't backfire on CCP.


We'll recruit you but you cannot get around the security deposit.
GeMiPaT
Bullshit Bingo Club
The Initiative.
#416 - 2013-10-04 08:05:18 UTC
Hi CCP

There is obviously something that does not work in giving free rights on all custom offices in empire. 0.0 alliances are already powerful in game and gets many of the juicy candies that the game can provide. There is a need for limitation. Can't we just limit the number of custom offices that a corp can hold to a certain number of custom offices. something like... 30 for example.
This would turn the big alliances to look at their 0.0 territory first and allow smaller alliances to look at empire to help grow their gains in the hope of competing with bigger alliances one day.
Another idea would be to limit the tax amount a corporation can put on a custom office in high sec. (25% for example)

On an economic note, I'm sure you realized that putting these resources in the hand of big alliances (and it will happen for the best planet types, you know it), means that the 4 racial fuel blocks can go very high if they decide that there is an embargo (100% tax). fuel will go up, highsec towers will go offline, research will slow down, moon harvesting cost will be higher (so T2 components to make T2 ships and modules), even keeping a tower in a WH will become less rentable and C1 to C3 will be more deserted than it is today...
Well you understand what I mean, giving unlimited access to these resources to big alliances will interfere with the gameplay of all others and this is not acceptable because ppl living in High sec, low sec or WH don't have such an economic argument on big alliances to balance it. I don't mean that you should not do it, but I mean that you have to put a limitation to it.

GeM
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#417 - 2013-10-04 09:31:43 UTC
The idea that Goons are going to control *all* production of specific materials by controlling all of a specific planet type seems to be a common theme - so let's run some numbers (I'm hoping here that the people on the thread claiming to be high-sec industrialists are capable of doing maths)...

There's a rundown of planets here: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/region/planets - they're also available in CCPs static data export.

The map data says that there are 1489 Plasma planets in space that players can reach. Breakdown is:

High-sec: 247
Low-sec: 148
Null-sec: 620 (164 of those are in CFC-controlled regions)
W-space: 474

So currently Goons control around 164/1489 = 11% of all plasma planets. I'm not aware of Goons controlling any POCOs around low-sec planets.

Assuming Goons did manage to put up POCOs and shut down all high-sec Plasma planets. The would give them 411 planets out of 1489 - which is 27% of all plasma planets. Probably not enough to exclusively control a material.

That's a rather simplistic view of the situation, but if you want to make some more realistic calculations you have to start making some assumptions. So here we go:

1) High-sec planets on average output 50% of the output of a null-sec planet.
2) Low-sec planets on average output 75% of the output of a null-sec planet.
3) There's a fair spread of low-output to high-output planets within each type of sec-status.
4) 66% of w-space systems have residents.

using these assumptions we can turn the above numbers into null-sec equivalent planets and we get.

High-sec: 124
Low-sec: 98
Null-sec: 620 (164 direct CFC)
W-space: 313
Total: 1155

High+sec plus CFC space now gives a monopoly of 25% of materials.

Now w-space is pretty much controlled by small groups working independently, and it would be really hard for Goons to exert influence over them. That means that 27% of the supply is completely out of Goon hands.

Goons could shut-down all the low-sec POCOs for another 8.5% of plasma planets. But that only leaves them with 33% control.

The big unknown is the 40% of plasma planets in the hands of other null-sec alliances. Certainly Goons may be able to work with some of those groups, but unlike Technetium, Plasma planets can be found throughout the galaxy, and coming to agreements to control supply on that wide a scale is very unlikely.

So high-sec industrials, what's the analysis telling you?

As far as this high-sec industrialist is concerned I find it very unlikely that Goons will be able to control enough supply for a long-enough time to squeeze the market in the same way that they did with OTEC. I would expect the sources of supply that Goons can't control to compensate and increase production as soon as particular materials become more profitable.

At best I think Goons could cause a shock to the system and a short-term price spike. They'd probably do this by grabbing all the plasma planets from Interbus as soon as possible and buying up large quantities of material from the market. The profits would then come because of all the idiots running around like Chicken Little yelling about the sky falling in...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#418 - 2013-10-04 09:32:30 UTC
Ramman K'arojic wrote:


You don’t get seem to understand. In eve I like what I do in the sand pit and toys I play with; its part my business strategy which pays the bills for stuff. What this change means I now need to relate to other players and be confident that they won’t suddenly transfer ownership to someone else, change taxes; and they won’t get popped; which leaves me with a disruption to my operations.
Lets do an scenario. Say planet x has POCO owned by Corp X. I want to use the POCO so all good. After a little while someone decs Corp x; and pops the POCO. Who doesn’t tell me and suddenly I am left with goods I can get in; and getting out is expensive. This war doesn’t involve me; and now it’s my problem that I can’t get goods in or out – that’s what I don’t see as reasonable.

Going back my wish list – this isn’t about avoiding conflict – this is being able to avoid being screwed over with no recourse except war and having reasonable chance to move stuff; especially when its not my fight.
As for Free PVP - stuck in the leading edge of the time zones means that I never likely to find them or vice versa.



No you don't seem to understand. Now you have the option to set up your own customs offices with lower taxes than you currently play. It's your choice not to use the option, many will, and their game will benefit from it.

Please also keep in mind that it's trivially easy to set up PI on another planet, and the costs involved in that are also low.

Btw do Goons own all the pocos in null, low and wormholes?

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#419 - 2013-10-04 09:36:58 UTC
Sulforan Drakken wrote:

You advertise this game (product) as a sandbox where a person has limitless possibilities, and can do pretty much whatever they want to, if they are willing to put in the effort/time/money, etc. Now you seem to be staring on a path which will alienate a significant portion of your paying customers -- and again this is failure for you.


Hisec does not have limitless possibilities, but this change increases the possibilities. Earlier you couldn't control customs offices, now you can.

Hisec getting closer to a sandbox, one baby step at a time.

.
Green Gambit
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#420 - 2013-10-04 09:47:34 UTC
Also having now had time to think about this a little - I've got a couple of suggestions about the implementation...

1) I'm not entirely clear on this from the devblog, but it looks like there's no advantage in destroying an Interbus Customs Office and replacing it with a POCO (tax on other players aside.) There was an advantage in other areas of space as you could replace the customs office to save yourself on the tax. A drop in the NPC tax purely by replacing the customs office would encourage players in the quieter areas of high-sec to claim a POCO.

2) Rather than having the tax be some ISK-equivalent value, it would be more interesting game-play-wise for it to be a percentage of the material itself (with fractions rounded up). Hence to collect your tax, you have to collect the material from the POCO and sell it on the market.