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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1101 - 2011-11-10 01:26:36 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
That would let it match tempest/mael performance inside warp disruptor range. While retaining the option to use high damage ammo at close range with just 5s swap time.


there you go, you just exposed the reason why more is needed to be done to blasters and their hulls.


I don't follow.

If blasters are as good as ACs inside long point range (28km), and better inside web/scram range (11km), then they are balanced against each other, no?



on paper, they are better than AC's inside web range.

in reality, they aren't, since they need to get close (which they can't 99 times out of 100) only to do marginally better damage than AC's and pulses.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1102 - 2011-11-10 07:28:42 UTC
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
Rip Minner wrote:
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Dunmur wrote:

LOL a rail brutix beating a ac cane now ive seen it all.

Wait is that a pig flying over there...


Stuff about a viable rail-kiter...

This is purely hypothetical of-course but...
If each medium hybrid turret gave a 4.25% boost to speed, then a Rail-Brutix would have enough speed to kite an AC Cane, and a Blaster-Brutix would have enough speed to get into-range before it's too late (sometimes).

An unusual fix? Yes.
Viable? Looks like it to me.
We're just brain-storming and discussing here, and I think this is worth discussing.



Just wondering if you also know that if your that fast and agile-enough to kite with rails you can also finaly catch and pin someone with blasters too right?


OK i guess i have to say it again why use rails when you can use the much better arty or autocannons buffing the ship isnt going to make the gun any better

Edit: I wish people would read past posts because this "make the ships faster" is becoming a dead horse


Read my post again. The original is on pg.50 thread #989

I suggested adding a speed bonus to the GUNS not the ships.

If fitting hybrids made your ship faster, then the speed/agility problems that plague Blasterboats AND Railships would be reduced greatly.
If you cause the GUNS to buff the speed, then hybrid ships would still be slow with ACs or arty or lasers fit.

As for (med) rails, if they gave a speed bonus to the ships that fit them, then they would be a very viable kiter for that "middle ground" between ACs and Arty. ACs have better tracking and more dmg at short-range, Artys have more alpha and better range, but worse tracking.

IMO rails aren't broken, it's the ships that fit them that can't maintain-range vs an AC ship, or close-range on a Arty ship.
Combined with the up-coming 10% dmg boost to rails, and supposedly there will be a slight trackin-boost, this should make Rails a useful PVP tool.

Obviously, for each fit, their should be a counter, so for above said engagements, chances should be as close to 50/50 as possible.



I dont even think that's needed as amarr ships or aka Lazers are good at thoughs kinds of games at thoughs ranges. 5% tracking inc should bring rails right in line with beams for tracking speed.

And the tracking bounses on alot of gallente gun boats would let them out fly amarr guns if they are not going all out amarr aka tracking disrupter fitted amarr ships starts looking good at this point though. Or at least better then it did yesterday.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1103 - 2011-11-10 07:36:52 UTC
Kathryn Archangel wrote:
I hope they change the sound for 425mm rail guns. They don't sound like they're launching projectiles across a couple hundred km at hyper velocity! They sound like peashooters. The heaviest medium rail guns sound bigger.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?



Ya I feel the same way. But I feel that way about all Large Rails and not just the 425's

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1104 - 2011-11-10 16:55:03 UTC
5% dps upgrade on blasters is just lulz. You need to do better than that Tallest if you want them to be viable.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1105 - 2011-11-10 17:24:22 UTC
Kumq uat wrote:
5% dps upgrade on blasters is just lulz. You need to do better than that Tallest if you want them to be viable.


Maybe Tallest is not the best Tallest ... :(
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1106 - 2011-11-10 17:29:05 UTC
Railguns need a little more boost , especially tracking. They should be near as good as beams.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#1107 - 2011-11-10 17:31:43 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Railguns need a little more boost , especially tracking. They should be near as good as beams.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun

:) So say we all :)
Cornette
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1108 - 2011-11-10 17:32:43 UTC
I have a question, CCP Tallest:

Is there any reason why antimatter should have a -50% range bonus when blaster optimal are so poor?
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#1109 - 2011-11-10 18:09:05 UTC
Cornette wrote:
I have a question, CCP Tallest:

Is there any reason why antimatter should have a -50% range bonus when blaster optimal are so poor?


to try to force you to use a different type of ammo that is still ****** short range but negates any dps advantage you have :)
Sydney Nelson
Nelson Universal Aerospace
#1110 - 2011-11-10 19:12:38 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Kathryn Archangel wrote:
I hope they change the sound for 425mm rail guns. They don't sound like they're launching projectiles across a couple hundred km at hyper velocity! They sound like peashooters. The heaviest medium rail guns sound bigger.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?



Ya I feel the same way. But I feel that way about all Large Rails and not just the 425's



Me three!
The mediums sound pretty-good.
I was so dissapointed when I fired that first shot with my shiny-new 425mm-fit Battleship for the first time.


You're right Rip, the Amarr do fill that role pretty-well.
Lekgoa
Free State Project
#1111 - 2011-11-10 22:15:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lekgoa
Moved to appropriate forum.
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#1112 - 2011-11-11 04:29:20 UTC
What has not been mentioned is that a change (improvement) to tracking is an INCREASE in damage. For those who might not be aware of this, you might wish to read:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadid=275675

or

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=97942

20% is a very substantial boost, and small blaster tracking/damage has always been good (20% might be too much for small's, but good for mediums and large). Get on SiSi and try it out - your damage output has improved. The 30% reduction is cap usage is nice, though not really essential given the superiority in passive tanking over active tanking since Revelations. I worry that the changes to Gallente ships (agility/velosity) might be a bit too much, but lets use sisi to determine that impact. Overall I believe these changes are warrented and well thought out. I am tired of the past CCP practices of every change being so OP as to make that group FOTM. Because of that, I can use all t2 weapons, I look forward to trying these changes out.

For the changes to T2 ammo, I simply say thank you and about time. For those that were here, the pre-nerfing of t2 ammo was always something that was going to be re-evaluated in the future for possible removal, so it has been a very long time coming Attention
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1113 - 2011-11-11 12:44:30 UTC
Veryez wrote:
What has not been mentioned is that a change (improvement) to tracking is an INCREASE in damage. For those who might not be aware of this, you might wish to read:

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadid=275675

or

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=97942

20% is a very substantial boost, and small blaster tracking/damage has always been good (20% might be too much for small's, but good for mediums and large). Get on SiSi and try it out - your damage output has improved. The 30% reduction is cap usage is nice, though not really essential given the superiority in passive tanking over active tanking since Revelations. I worry that the changes to Gallente ships (agility/velosity) might be a bit too much, but lets use sisi to determine that impact. Overall I believe these changes are warrented and well thought out. I am tired of the past CCP practices of every change being so OP as to make that group FOTM. Because of that, I can use all t2 weapons, I look forward to trying these changes out.

For the changes to T2 ammo, I simply say thank you and about time. For those that were here, the pre-nerfing of t2 ammo was always something that was going to be re-evaluated in the future for possible removal, so it has been a very long time coming Attention



it still doesn't increase damage beyond "paper" stats tho, and "paper" stats are pretty much optimal circumstances.

in the end it's still not enough damage, considering both pulses and AC's that hit far better, altho, granted, at much longer ranges.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Lo Res
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1114 - 2011-11-11 13:58:08 UTC
I'm sure this was probably mentioned somewhere in the 50+ pages here, but....


Do you really want to give a speed and inertia buff to the Falcon?

It's not flown like a blaster boat. It sits at range from a fight and jams people to hell.

So now it can sit at range and kite a brawl even better?

As a pilot that loves to kill off enemy ewar boats in a vaga, I don't like it.

And if you're going to show love to the falcon, why not do the same for its Tech 1 brother, the Blackbird?

Please pull the falcon off the list of ships getting a speed and inertia buff. or at least explain the rationale for the buff on the forums.

thanks.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#1115 - 2011-11-11 14:40:53 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
That would let it match tempest/mael performance inside warp disruptor range. While retaining the option to use high damage ammo at close range with just 5s swap time.


there you go, you just exposed the reason why more is needed to be done to blasters and their hulls.


I don't follow.

If blasters are as good as ACs inside long point range (28km), and better inside web/scram range (11km), then they are balanced against each other, no?



on paper, they are better than AC's inside web range.

in reality, they aren't, since they need to get close (which they can't 99 times out of 100) only to do marginally better damage than AC's and pulses.



If you want i will show you, how much better in short range a Blaster than AC without any paper blabla.
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1116 - 2011-11-11 15:12:05 UTC
Perhaps because the idea of ships that are supposed to sit at long range being slow-flying bricks (and thus barely capable of extending the amount of time before that range disappears, let alone maintaining it, oftentimes even against hulls a class above them) hasn't really worked out so well.

I dont think the relatively minor buff it (or any of the caldari ships for that matter) are getting will make it significantly more difficult to chase down anyway. I do agree the base hull should get the same benefit, however.

So, it sounds like rails are getting a tracking boost (a small one, but medium and especially large rails can use the help since they don't often get to use their suppsedly-primary advantage of "massively long range" and thus can't compensate for their tracking as well) but the damage bonus has been dropped with the introduction of shortened reload? Not sure about that, even if it does mean less penalty for switching ammo types... even the not-so-large large rails can throw AM almost as far as people generally talk about engagements taking place, especially on a range-bonused ship, so while that will be nice for frigates/destroyers (probably mostly destroyers) and maybe moa/ferox hulls (since M's do seem to do well switching back and forth a bit) I don't see that *really* helping much. Blasters, sure, since if you're being kited your choices are "switch" or "don't do damage". Rails, hopefully there's either still a bit of a raw damage boost being mulled over, or revisiting the hulls
has become a solid "next priority."
Alain Badiou
Combine Honnete 0ber Advancer Mercantiles
#1117 - 2011-11-11 19:49:40 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Stan Kirby wrote:
Minmatar or projectile boost:
- +100% artillery burst damage
- overpowered cynobal, machariel, dramiel
- huge falloff bonus from TE and TC.

...
Gallente/hybrid boost:
- blasters tracking speed +20% .... LOL Lol
- railguns +10% damage ... megaLOL Lol

CCP fail... again.

It does have that feeling doesn't it?




Sadly I was extremely hopeful (I have 3x gal toons and love the Gallente concept), but I must agree with the above. None of the proposed changes will make hybrid/gal boats more useful in pvp. Having had endless conversations with corpmates about this, there is never a situation where a hybrid boat would be more useful then a projectile boat. Ever. Proposed fixes will not change this.

Something like AB speed bonuses to gallente hulls, making active armor tanking viable, % per level web bonuses (anything that can help gallente getting into range) seems necessary. Also, blasters need a damage and/or range increase to make up for the fact that you are in deep armor/hull by the time you get into range (if you ever do...).

Also, been said a million times, but TE's NEED there falloff bonus nerfed hard.
Alain Badiou
Combine Honnete 0ber Advancer Mercantiles
#1118 - 2011-11-11 22:31:35 UTC
Tania Russ wrote:
Tried to read as much of this threadnaught as I could... Sorry if reiterating.

Having been flying blaster boats for years, and as well having tried to use rails in PvP. Awful.

Here are the biggest issues for Gallente ships.

1. Too slow.
2. Not very agile.
3. Not enough tank if they are going to be slow and not agile.
4. Hybrids are pretty much fail across the board.
5. Drones not good enough.

Blasters:
1. Not enough damage output
2. Not enough range
3. Not enough tracking

Rails:
1. Not enough damage output
2. Not enough tracking

For a drone-centric society, Gallente are as well awful nerfed in the drone department. Gallente ships should be bristling with drones and have major drone bonuses, more than they currently have. Gallente ships should make drones faster, hit harder, and they should make them tougher. They do to some extent now but not nearly enough.

How do we fix these issues?

1. Give gallente ships a webber range bonus
2. Make them more agile
3. Give blasters a range bonus - even small blasters should hit effectively out to 10 km. Every other small weapon does.
4. Tank bonuses if they are going to be slow. Major tank bonuses.
5. More drones, more drone CPU, more drone buffs
6. Make rails do more DPS than blasters but unable to hit at close range. We are talking about higher technology weapons here supposedly. Why are they so fail? If not this then at least more tracking for rails and more DPS for rails.

Not saying all of these must be adopted, but a combination of these ideas must be adopted. It's illogical to think that ships as badly nerfed as Gallente have been would even be built in our "future culture" of EVE as is. They suck too bad.


Seriously +1
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1119 - 2011-11-11 22:53:23 UTC
I'm starting to think CCP's changes are to focused on the current environment and game-play. I'll use the changes to artillery as an example here. Apparently, artillery were the worst of the long range turrets @ the time. This has alot to do with the superior range (optimals) of beam laser and rail-gun. Funny thing is, as soon as these changes were made. Which was directed towards what was the current dynamics (doctrines and mechanics @ the time). Sh!t changed! Was no longer as important to have that much range. This dichotomy is very amusing and now beam laser and rail-gun are outmoded. Will CCP change beam lasers to make them more useful?
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#1120 - 2011-11-11 23:17:11 UTC
Another point of view a few pilots I know have been championing. While some have been trying to change to a logical penalty for armour plates and armor rigs. Both are suggesting a boost to armour plates and armour rigs, but the pilots i was referring too. Want to boost all close range set-ups (bigger issue). Not directed towards any specific racial ships or turret, but to increase the viability of all close range ships. My "idea" of a increase in stasis webifier range and warp scrambler range was taken from conversations, with some of these pilots. Their Idea is to keep the penalties to inertia (agility/align-time) and acceleration. Which is where they differ from the most popular views on the subject. What should be changed is armor rigs and plates penalty to base velocity of the ship and micro-warp-drive. So, a Thorax with 1600mm plate and armor rigs. Would be going 1400 meters second, instead of 1100 meters a second. Which makes alot of sense. Great Ideas that should be implemented. Although, this will help with the viability of not only Gallente ships, but also Minmatar and Armarr ships.