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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#1041 - 2011-11-08 06:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dunmur
Rip Minner wrote:
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
Sydney Nelson wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:
Stuff


Stuff


LOL a rail brutix beating a ac cane now ive seen it all.

Wait is that a pig flying over there...


Slow down.
Engage your mind.
Think about what people post before making a conclusion.

Why is it so LOL?

Go ahead, answer the question...

A Rail-Brutix could never kite an AC Cane because the AC Cane is so much faster, and more agile, that it makes it impossible for the Brutix to maintain range.

There's the problem.
Ok, so how do you fix it?

Change rails?
That would probably work, but the rails themselves aren't the REAL problem.
The real problem is that the ship you're fitting them to isn't fast enough or agile enough to kite much of anything.

So what's the REAL solution?
Make rails viable by making the ships that fit them fast-enough or agile-enough to kite.

Does that make sense?

This is purely hypothetical of-course but...
If each medium hybrid turret gave a 4.25% boost to speed, then a Rail-Brutix would have enough speed to kite an AC Cane, and a Blaster-Brutix would have enough speed to get into-range before it's too late (sometimes).

An unusual fix? Yes.
Viable? Looks like it to me.
We're just brain-storming and discussing here, and I think this is worth discussing.



Just wondering if you also know that if your that fast and agile-enough to kite with rails you can also finaly catch and pin someone with blasters too right?


OK i guess i have to say it again why use rails when you can use the much better arty or autocannons buffing the ship isnt going to make the gun any better

Edit: I wish people would read past posts because this "make the ships faster" is becoming a dead horse
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1042 - 2011-11-08 06:08:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rip Minner
Dear Nimrod Nemesis,

A Hyperion with a full rack of 350mm Rails can in fact run Kin/Therm level 4's every bit as fast as the standard Tech 1 hulls of the Teir 1 and 2 Gallente BS line up and sum times it can run them faster then ether one.


Edit: Just to clear that up alittle bit. What I mean my standard Tech 1 hulls is not the Navy versions.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#1043 - 2011-11-08 06:18:05 UTC
Dunmur wrote:


OK i guess i have to say it again why use rails when you can use the much better arty or autocannons buffing the ship isnt going to make the gun any better

Edit: I wish people would read past posts because this "make the ships faster" is becoming a dead horse



I would normaly agree with you but I dont think you read the post. It wisely suggest that the speed and aglity boost be placed on the Hybirds not the ship. So the real question is will Winmatars pick auto cannons for range and dmg selection or blaster/rails for more speed?

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#1044 - 2011-11-08 06:59:50 UTC
Ahaha, the "make hybrids cause ships to go faster," suggestion is being repeated.

Now I know why CCP doesn't read the forums, jesus christ.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1045 - 2011-11-08 09:19:38 UTC
There is this place called the Sphere of Commitment. In this place of hell you are subjected to energy neutralizers, scramblers and stasis webifiers. This place, is extremely hard to escape. This place of pain and suffering is where Gallente blasters live. Their optimal range is smack in the middle of the sphere. It is the only short range high damage weapon platform that can not live outside of the sphere or it will do nothing for damage. Chances are, you took some damage getting to this place where your damage can be applied. Being scrammed and webbed means you will not be coasting out of the Sphere of Commitment anytime soon without dying.

I see some people say to give blasters better optimal range to fix them. To what extent? Even if it was double, you still would be in the sphere if you wanted to do any meaningful damage. So change to longer range ammo with blasters? OK, but then your damage will be pointless and why are you even there? So if the optimal was increased where Gallente blaster ships could apply antimatter damage and not be inside the sphere they would basically be something like auto cannons, except no damage selection and you burn cap shooting. At that point, you might as well just fit auto cannons and save yourself the trouble.

I see some people say increase the alpha. OK, but why would you go with blasters with artillery does the same job, with no cap usage and at incredible range, well outside the sphere? Again, you might as well just go with artillery.

So what about tracking increase you say? They are already getting an increase, but it really is not making it worth getting that close. Increase it more you say?? So then it will be a support murder machine. No thanks.

Different damage type selection? *sigh* Like missiles and projectile ammo? Why? That still wont fix them. Why would you go with blasters to pick damage type when missiles and projectiles do the same thing from the comfort of being outside the sphere?

There really is only one thing left. DPS. Yes they already have the best, but it is only by 7-10% better. Hardly worth getting into a tackled situation for such a tiny edge. Now some of you who do the solo thing or even very, very small skirmishes will blasters will swear they are great now. OK, but what about larger fights? Medium to large and extremely large?? Bottom line is they are horrible at those. No reason what so ever to take your 7-10% DPS advantage and try and chase down the enemy ships who are mostly faster, more agile and have been pissing damage all over your face the whole time while you try and get into optimal range to do any real damage.

The only choice really is to increase the DPS more. And by more I don't mean some **** poor 10% or some crap like that. I am talking upwards of 20-25%. Time to make it really worth getting into that sphere of hell. Time to make that sphere of hell be what the enemy calls being close to you when your ripping into them with blasters. I know some of you will cry out and say things like, "But, but the Vindicator will become a monster!" Yeah well the Nightmare and Machariel are monsters in their own right so why not the Vindicator?

Now in order to not do the cheap and easy way out and give them larger alpha strikes, the way to go is dramatically reduce ammo size and cost evenly. Then increase the rate of fire of blasters a lot. Adjust the base damage and rof till you wind up with 20-25% DPS.

Just please do not turn blasters into some wannabe version of something we already have on another weapon platform. Blasters is all about getting in their face and doing large amounts of DPS and melting them. Not insanely over the top tracking or long optimal range or really good falloff or any of that.

Blasters is MASSIVE damage per second!
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#1046 - 2011-11-08 12:10:18 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
There is this place called the Sphere of Commitment. In this place of hell you are subjected to energy neutralizers, scramblers and stasis webifiers. This place, is extremely hard to escape. This place of pain and suffering is where Gallente blasters live. Their optimal range is smack in the middle of the sphere. It is the only short range high damage weapon platform that can not live outside of the sphere or it will do nothing for damage. Chances are, you took some damage getting to this place where your damage can be applied. Being scrammed and webbed means you will not be coasting out of the Sphere of Commitment anytime soon without dying.

I see some people say to give blasters better optimal range to fix them. To what extent? Even if it was double, you still would be in the sphere if you wanted to do any meaningful damage. So change to longer range ammo with blasters? OK, but then your damage will be pointless and why are you even there? So if the optimal was increased where Gallente blaster ships could apply antimatter damage and not be inside the sphere they would basically be something like auto cannons, except no damage selection and you burn cap shooting. At that point, you might as well just fit auto cannons and save yourself the trouble.

I see some people say increase the alpha. OK, but why would you go with blasters with artillery does the same job, with no cap usage and at incredible range, well outside the sphere? Again, you might as well just go with artillery.

So what about tracking increase you say? They are already getting an increase, but it really is not making it worth getting that close. Increase it more you say?? So then it will be a support murder machine. No thanks.

Different damage type selection? *sigh* Like missiles and projectile ammo? Why? That still wont fix them. Why would you go with blasters to pick damage type when missiles and projectiles do the same thing from the comfort of being outside the sphere?

There really is only one thing left. DPS. Yes they already have the best, but it is only by 7-10% better. Hardly worth getting into a tackled situation for such a tiny edge. Now some of you who do the solo thing or even very, very small skirmishes will blasters will swear they are great now. OK, but what about larger fights? Medium to large and extremely large?? Bottom line is they are horrible at those. No reason what so ever to take your 7-10% DPS advantage and try and chase down the enemy ships who are mostly faster, more agile and have been pissing damage all over your face the whole time while you try and get into optimal range to do any real damage.

The only choice really is to increase the DPS more. And by more I don't mean some **** poor 10% or some crap like that. I am talking upwards of 20-25%. Time to make it really worth getting into that sphere of hell. Time to make that sphere of hell be what the enemy calls being close to you when your ripping into them with blasters. I know some of you will cry out and say things like, "But, but the Vindicator will become a monster!" Yeah well the Nightmare and Machariel are monsters in their own right so why not the Vindicator?

Now in order to not do the cheap and easy way out and give them larger alpha strikes, the way to go is dramatically reduce ammo size and cost evenly. Then increase the rate of fire of blasters a lot. Adjust the base damage and rof till you wind up with 20-25% DPS.

Just please do not turn blasters into some wannabe version of something we already have on another weapon platform. Blasters is all about getting in their face and doing large amounts of DPS and melting them. Not insanely over the top tracking or long optimal range or really good falloff or any of that.

Blasters is MASSIVE damage per second!


No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.

For this buff to work you would need at least 3/4 the range of the other gun types instead of 1/4.

For example

+30% Damage
+30% Falloff + optimal

Now 30% may seem like alot of damage BUT when you include the fact that its only kin+thermal and still uses cap it seems balanced

30% more range would make it still shorter than autos and since gallente are still the slow turds and minmatar are still the fastest it would still be possible to kite them but the window would be smaller. The extra range is necessary to give gallente some added utility in fights where the enemy might be spread out.

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1047 - 2011-11-08 13:20:26 UTC
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.


boosting blaster ships mobility would solve this issue. don't forget that the blaster issues are not from the guns alone.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

indicast
Conquerors Undead Space
#1048 - 2011-11-08 13:40:06 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.


boosting blaster ships mobility would solve this issue. don't forget that the blaster issues are not from the guns alone.


+ 1
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1049 - 2011-11-08 13:58:30 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.


boosting blaster ships mobility would solve this issue. don't forget that the blaster issues are not from the guns alone.

so my eagle will be able to chase down a zealot?
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1050 - 2011-11-08 14:25:53 UTC
Please, revise RAILGUNS, rails need more performance...

We, Caldari want to have worthy line-up of railgun ships.

We need damage, we need weapon that can break any tank at some cost. Can you increase CAP requirements for tech 2 ammo, but give it a damage bonus, instead of optimal. Rails could fire slower, but hit harder than blasters. Tweak dmg mod and ROF of larger size rail, make smaller size rails (i mean large hybrid, smaller caliber 250, 350, 425mm) fire faster, larger guns fire harder and reload slower.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1051 - 2011-11-08 14:31:44 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.


boosting blaster ships mobility would solve this issue. don't forget that the blaster issues are not from the guns alone.

so my eagle will be able to chase down a zealot?



I said blaster ships, not hybrid ships in general.


buuuut, maybe caldari gunboats could get a bit more of mobility too...

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1052 - 2011-11-08 14:35:05 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.


boosting blaster ships mobility would solve this issue. don't forget that the blaster issues are not from the guns alone.

so my eagle will be able to chase down a zealot?



I said blaster ships, not hybrid ships in general.


buuuut, maybe caldari gunboats could get a bit more of mobility too...

hmm why isnt it a blaster ship especially as it will have only optimal? it can fit blasters get bonus for them too so it is a blaster ship:P
just like zealot can use both beams and pulses
Tania Russ
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1053 - 2011-11-08 15:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tania Russ
Tried to read as much of this threadnaught as I could... Sorry if reiterating.

Having been flying blaster boats for years, and as well having tried to use rails in PvP. Awful.

Here are the biggest issues for Gallente ships.

1. Too slow.
2. Not very agile.
3. Not enough tank if they are going to be slow and not agile.
4. Hybrids are pretty much fail across the board.
5. Drones not good enough.

Blasters:
1. Not enough damage output
2. Not enough range
3. Not enough tracking

Rails:
1. Not enough damage output
2. Not enough tracking

For a drone-centric society, Gallente are as well awful nerfed in the drone department. Gallente ships should be bristling with drones and have major drone bonuses, more than they currently have. Gallente ships should make drones faster, hit harder, and they should make them tougher. They do to some extent now but not nearly enough.

How do we fix these issues?

1. Give gallente ships a webber range bonus
2. Make them more agile
3. Give blasters a range bonus - even small blasters should hit effectively out to 10 km. Every other small weapon does.
4. Tank bonuses if they are going to be slow. Major tank bonuses.
5. More drones, more drone CPU, more drone buffs
6. Make rails do more DPS than blasters but unable to hit at close range. We are talking about higher technology weapons here supposedly. Why are they so fail? If not this then at least more tracking for rails and more DPS for rails.

Not saying all of these must be adopted, but a combination of these ideas must be adopted. It's illogical to think that ships as badly nerfed as Gallente have been would even be built in our "future culture" of EVE as is. They suck too bad.
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#1054 - 2011-11-08 15:55:36 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.


boosting blaster ships mobility would solve this issue. don't forget that the blaster issues are not from the guns alone.


Once again if you buff the ships nothing will change except instead of a slow gallente boat with autocannons you will have a faster gallente boat with autocannons.
Kraden Kidtrell
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1055 - 2011-11-08 16:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kraden Kidtrell
I'm a Gallente Pilot, and I find Rails to be kinda disappointing, but I guess I have to ask, even if my ship goes faster, why would I want to use Rails, if Artillery is so much better and have less draw back on cap and such? From what I've seen, though the ship itself may need some love, the Gallente weapons need alot more....
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1056 - 2011-11-08 16:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.

For this buff to work you would need at least 3/4 the range of the other gun types instead of 1/4.

For example

+30% Damage
+30% Falloff + optimal

Now 30% may seem like alot of damage BUT when you include the fact that its only kin+thermal and still uses cap it seems balanced

30% more range would make it still shorter than autos and since gallente are still the slow turds and minmatar are still the fastest it would still be possible to kite them but the window would be smaller. The extra range is necessary to give gallente some added utility in fights where the enemy might be spread out.



Like I said in my post. If your going to be outside the sphere; you might as well role with a different weapon platform that will do the job better.
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#1057 - 2011-11-08 17:08:56 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dunmur wrote:
No matter how much you buff damge that kinda range is far too limiting. You warp to 0 land on a ship kill it then what? Most fleets are far too spread out for this mindset to be effective and since you are the slowest ship you really have very limited choices.

For this buff to work you would need at least 3/4 the range of the other gun types instead of 1/4.

For example

+30% Damage
+30% Falloff + optimal

Now 30% may seem like alot of damage BUT when you include the fact that its only kin+thermal and still uses cap it seems balanced

30% more range would make it still shorter than autos and since gallente are still the slow turds and minmatar are still the fastest it would still be possible to kite them but the window would be smaller. The extra range is necessary to give gallente some added utility in fights where the enemy might be spread out.



Like I said in my post. If your going to be outside the sphere; you might as well role with a different weapon platform that will do the job better.


If just a dps buff makes blasters viable ill eat my hat. They need utility/versatility otherwise they will continue being the race that just kills one or two targets then spends the next 5 -10 mins moving to the next target. Travel time will ruin any dps advantage you have if you survive long enough to even get in range.

This is of coarse only going to matter in medium to large battles So if you want them to only have a spot in solo and very small group pvp, a dps buff is fine.
Yaturi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1058 - 2011-11-08 17:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Yaturi
I would like to see a break from the thermal kenetic bond hybrids have. Why not 25% of each damage type. Plasma could be considered explosive and electromagnetic in nature. Couldn't it?

Hybrids are suppose to be higher technology. Why not uniform damage distribution
Angeliena
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1059 - 2011-11-08 18:02:07 UTC
Please increase base t2 webs to 75%.
bornaa
GRiD.
#1060 - 2011-11-08 18:16:14 UTC
from Test Server Feedback sub-forum:


CCP Tallest wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
CCP Tallest, any plans on further developing the hybrid changes before patch day so they can actually make an impact come Winter?


Yes indeed. I was just about to post an update.

* Hybrid turret reload time will be 5 seconds.
* Hybrid ammo will be 50% smaller (and turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Blaster damage +5% (except XL turrets)
* Railgun tracking +5% (except XL turrets)

..also, Hail falloff penalty will be 25%, not 0%.

[Yes, I'm an Amateur](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRa-69uBmIw&feature=relmfu)