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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

First post First post
Author
Will DestroyYou
#901 - 2011-11-05 10:35:28 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
They realy want to fix the gallente ships ?


No, they all fly mini... obviously...
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#902 - 2011-11-05 11:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Will DestroyYou wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Breaking news!!!
Another ridiculous idea from CCP against a gallentean ship.
They removed Talos web bonus and removed the 25m3 dronebay and they give a small tracking bonus for Talos!!! lol
Who want to flight a new design tier 3 gallentean ship which cant reach his target but he have good tracking ???
I never understood logic of CCP. They realy want to fix the gallente ships ?


No, they all fly mini... obviously...


Obviously.
If a developer introduce for us the masterful example of the incompetence, that is
apparently the minnie's fault.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#903 - 2011-11-05 11:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Deviana Sevidon
Even the ingame fittint screen on Sisi acknowledges that the failure that is the Hybrid fix for blaster turrets.

(I choose the ships because they both have a damage bonus, the same number of turrets and drones)

Armageddon hull on Singularity: 7x Mega Pulse Laser ll:
Turret DPS: 729 with Multifrequency Crystals 15km optimal 10km falloff
Turret DPS: 668 with Scorch Crystals 45km optimal 10km falloff

Megathron hull on Singularity : 7 Neutron Blaster Cannon ll:
Turret DPS 759 with Antimatter 4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff
Turret DPS 696 with Null 11,25km optimal and 15,62km falloff

In conclusion:

There is no point in hybrid turrets even after the patch. The Armageddon has almost the same DPS and 3x the range. So blasters are in desperate need of something more. Either drastically more DPS or a lot more range.

And to compare Talos vs. Tornado: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29776&find=unread

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#904 - 2011-11-05 13:47:23 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Even the ingame fittint screen on Sisi acknowledges that the failure that is the Hybrid fix for blaster turrets.

(I choose the ships because they both have a damage bonus, the same number of turrets and drones)

Armageddon hull on Singularity: 7x Mega Pulse Laser ll:
Turret DPS: 729 with Multifrequency Crystals 15km optimal 10km falloff
Turret DPS: 668 with Scorch Crystals 45km optimal 10km falloff

Megathron hull on Singularity : 7 Neutron Blaster Cannon ll:
Turret DPS 759 with Antimatter 4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff
Turret DPS 696 with Null 11,25km optimal and 15,62km falloff

In conclusion:

There is no point in hybrid turrets even after the patch. The Armageddon has almost the same DPS and 3x the range. So blasters are in desperate need of something more. Either drastically more DPS or a lot more range.

And to compare Talos vs. Tornado: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29776&find=unread



Compare Talos to Tornado is simple -actually sisi is good to figure how insufficient chances are for gallente while either by range or ammo changes other races like amarr or minmatar are getting boosted.

Before:
There's no reason to fly something that can't catch prey apply decent dmg in falloff with crap tracking

After:
There's no reason to fly something that still can't catch prey, still can't apply decent dmg in falloff without tracking issues. Now has more cap free to keep running AB or MWD but still useless since can't catch prey, but gives you the illusion you can do something while you're being melted has before. Nice for gank at gates station undocks and mackinaws.
For the same price Tornado just does better in all fields, why fly the green crap?

Has for those "don't give range I don't want hybrids looking like autos".

First things first, I don't want your Autos or lasers to be better at blaster roles any more since they're not and were not supposed to be in the first place, so if they can't fix hybrids it's lasers and autos who are in need of the nerf hammer.

Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#905 - 2011-11-05 13:49:40 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Even the ingame fittint screen on Sisi acknowledges that the failure that is the Hybrid fix for blaster turrets.

(I choose the ships because they both have a damage bonus, the same number of turrets and drones)

Armageddon hull on Singularity: 7x Mega Pulse Laser ll:
Turret DPS: 729 with Multifrequency Crystals 15km optimal 10km falloff
Turret DPS: 668 with Scorch Crystals 45km optimal 10km falloff

Megathron hull on Singularity : 7 Neutron Blaster Cannon ll:
Turret DPS 759 with Antimatter 4,5km optimal and 12,5km falloff
Turret DPS 696 with Null 11,25km optimal and 15,62km falloff

In conclusion:

There is no point in hybrid turrets even after the patch. The Armageddon has almost the same DPS and 3x the range. So blasters are in desperate need of something more. Either drastically more DPS or a lot more range.

And to compare Talos vs. Tornado: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=29776&find=unread


Good point.

4,5 km LOL :) and lack of DPS its soooo huge L.O.L

WHO SAID SOMETHING ABOUT BLASTERS UBER DAMAGE ??? Where are you guys now ? Please "t2 Blaster Pilots" say something about yours uber tactics or even better show us yours Killboards :)

Blaster sucks and DEV want to give them tracking LOL. Welcome old/new CCP where ignorance is the key. ehh

Nothing gonna change Im sure ...
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#906 - 2011-11-05 14:02:03 UTC
All I can assume is that most devs toons are either Amarr or Minmater and that subconciously they dont want to make Galle be on an equal footing.
I found the youtube clip of a blaster fleet getting on top of and owning a Beam fleet so hilarious. it was like them rubbing the difference in and saying if you cant win with blasters you're just crap pilots.
Hybrids suck now and they will after the changes. CCP dont seem to have the will, inclanation, insparation or ability to fix them.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#907 - 2011-11-05 14:15:23 UTC
Charles Edisson wrote:
All I can assume is that most devs toons are either Amarr or Minmater and that subconciously they dont want to make Galle be on an equal footing.
I found the youtube clip of a blaster fleet getting on top of and owning a Beam fleet so hilarious. it was like them rubbing the difference in and saying if you cant win with blasters you're just crap pilots.
Hybrids suck now and they will after the changes. CCP dont seem to have the will, inclanation, insparation or ability to fix them.


Well could be true as I remember this correctly some time ago on Alliance Tournament CCP Soundwave said that he likes to fly Matar so maybe it is the point. And he also said that he don't want to make any tweaks in ships. And now he dare to said in front of the cam that its "ALL ABOUT SPACESHIPS". He must be really unhappy...

Well he is mattar :) LOL - checked

There was reduction in CCP stuff why not CCP Soundwave :) ?
Creat Posudol
German Oldies
#908 - 2011-11-05 14:38:56 UTC
Dunmur wrote:
Whatever they decide to do it will have to be a buff to the gun itself. If they buff the ships speed or drones most gallente ships will still prefer autocannons/ arty over blasters/rails because the buffs will transfer.

If they cannot find a way to buff blasters/rails without relying on ship/drone buffs too much nothing will change. At that point its a concept design problem and I say take blasters and rails back to the drawing board and redesign them from scratch.


I know I've gotten pretty exited last night when I replied to the "drone attaching idea" (post #896), but the more I think about it, the less I like it unfortunately :(

One of the reasons is the one you just mentioned: ACs will even on those hulls still outperform blasters by a long shot, and that will open just another can of worms.
Then there is the probably significant effort required to implement this, even if they don't physically attach to hulls but pull on the ship with tractor beams or something. It's still an entirely new game mechanic.
Also in fact this is basically just a conditional speed buff to hulls, essentially giving speed based on drone bandwidth (and removing the drone damage while it's active). While this does give the greatest boost to Gallente, it's also pretty random as to which ship gets how much boost otherwise.
It would be an option to create something like "drone attachment hard points" to more directly control this, but in the end this feels like a rather cumbersome approach. The effect would be quite similar if the speed of the hulls was just simply increased where needed by the exact amount that is deemed necessary or appropriate.

To bad, it seemed like a really cool idea at first. One more example of how something cool isn't necessarily a good idea...
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#909 - 2011-11-05 14:58:33 UTC
I see one potential solver.

Nerf Matar and make gallente the fastest race in the game. If you want close range you must be the fastest, its the only option for this problem. Coz Devs makes lots of mistakes with matar. Matar ships are fast and agile with is the stupidest idea, you cant be agile and fast at the same time = inertia. Blaster can be OK (EVEN NOW !!) if you always are the fastest one Isn't this true ? Trying anything different will makes things worst..

I think the problem is not with blasters but with AC .. and fast matar ships

Imagine blasters on Matar boats. It can work !
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#910 - 2011-11-05 15:18:21 UTC
Charles Edisson wrote:
All I can assume is that most devs toons are either Amarr or Minmater and that subconciously they dont want to make Galle be on an equal footing.
I found the youtube clip of a blaster fleet getting on top of and owning a Beam fleet so hilarious. it was like them rubbing the difference in and saying if you cant win with blasters you're just crap pilots.
Hybrids suck now and they will after the changes. CCP dont seem to have the will, inclanation, insparation or ability to fix them.



Yeah because everyone in null sec does just like that: "fly under 200clicks" and every single blaster in the constellation just magically pops and rip apart everything looking like rust or sex toys....we all know it so well.

That video made me smile the first time I saw it "wtf is this troll from CCP" Lol

I'd like them to do some real videos of what's going on in high sec low sec and null sec, not sure they'd be able too admit how disproportional is the number of matar/amarr/caldari/gallente ships flown.
Sad CCP Tallest is the once that can do something about but will probably not be able to: see the 180° direction about web bonus for Talos with stuff about fleets and hit bigger stuff.

Everyone knows the only sub cap gallente ships useful in fleets are arazus/lachesis for the long point, at any other task gallente hulls/weapons are just pitiful.

Gangs? -yes they can succeed, when they're being rep by GUARDIANS, shooting stuff pinned by RAPIERS, Ecm by FALCONS, but even then if you fly gallente it's just the poor man's choice. Every single ship type in amarr or minmatar set up WILL be better for the same job.

Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#911 - 2011-11-05 15:26:03 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Charles Edisson wrote:
All I can assume is that most devs toons are either Amarr or Minmater and that subconciously they dont want to make Galle be on an equal footing.
I found the youtube clip of a blaster fleet getting on top of and owning a Beam fleet so hilarious. it was like them rubbing the difference in and saying if you cant win with blasters you're just crap pilots.
Hybrids suck now and they will after the changes. CCP dont seem to have the will, inclanation, insparation or ability to fix them.



Yeah because everyone in null sec does just like that: "fly under 200clicks" and every single blaster in the constellation just magically pops and rip apart everything looking like rust or sex toys....we all know it so well.

That video made me smile the first time I saw it "wtf is this troll from CCP" Lol

I'd like them to do some real videos of what's going on in high sec low sec and null sec, not sure they'd be able too admit how disproportional is the number of matar/amarr/caldari/gallente ships flown.
Sad CCP Tallest is the once that can do something about but will probably not be able to: see the 180° direction about web bonus for Talos with stuff about fleets and hit bigger stuff.

Everyone knows the only sub cap gallente ships useful in fleets are arazus/lachesis for the long point, at any other task gallente hulls/weapons are just pitiful.

Gangs? -yes they can succeed, when they're being rep by GUARDIANS, shooting stuff pinned by RAPIERS, Ecm by FALCONS, but even then if you fly gallente it's just the poor man's choice. Every single ship type in amarr or minmatar set up WILL be better for the same job.


Not really the poor man's choice.... most of the hulls are also usually more expensive than their Minmatar counter part, which makes no sense since when you commit to a fight good chance your not coming out of it unlike the other ships that often fight outside of scram/web range.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#912 - 2011-11-05 15:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Keen Fallsword wrote:
I see one potential solver.

Nerf Matar and make gallente the fastest race in the game. If you want close range you must be the fastest, its the only option for this problem. Coz Devs makes lots of mistakes with matar. Matar ships are fast and agile with is the stupidest idea, you cant be agile and fast at the same time = inertia. Blaster can be OK (EVEN NOW !!) if you always are the fastest one Isn't this true ? Trying anything different will makes things worst..

I think the problem is not with blasters but with AC .. and fast matar ships

Imagine blasters on Matar boats. It can work !



This is the worst idea what i heard.

Make gallentean ship the fastest race in game ? Oh i see, do you want to catch some paper hull matar ships.
Those matar ships have the worst hull in game. Thier advantages just their speeds when a blaster hit them from short distance they burning out instantly. Minnie hit and run tactics when a faster blaster ship using on their ships a web and scrambler ?
Do you just want a "I WIN" button and creating a ship which faster than matarian ship, which have better firepower and better hull. LOL
This would be the fine solution ? No thx no.
Need smarter gallente ship and weapon system buff.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#913 - 2011-11-05 15:41:24 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Keen Fallsword wrote:
I see one potential solver.

Nerf Matar and make gallente the fastest race in the game. If you want close range you must be the fastest, its the only option for this problem. Coz Devs makes lots of mistakes with matar. Matar ships are fast and agile with is the stupidest idea, you cant be agile and fast at the same time = inertia. Blaster can be OK (EVEN NOW !!) if you always are the fastest one Isn't this true ? Trying anything different will makes things worst..

I think the problem is not with blasters but with AC .. and fast matar ships

Imagine blasters on Matar boats. It can work !



This is the worst idea what i heard.

Make gallentean ship the fastest race in game ? Oh i see, do you want to catch some paper hull matar ships.
Those matar ships have the worst hull in game. Thier advantages just their speeds when a blaster hit them from short distance they burning out instantly. Minnie hit and run tactics when a faster blaster ship using on your ship a web and scrambler ?
You just want "I WIN" button and creating a ship which faster than matarian ship, which have better firepower and better hull. LOL
This would be the fine solution ? No thx no.
Need smarter gallente ship and weapon system buff.


No i dont want "I win" button I want all 4 races to be playable Im both Gallente and Matar pilot. Also do not forgot about Caldari ! they got only few playable ships. Matar is OP and thats the problem and must be nerfed. Ac balance was the worst.

Anyway we need to find idea how to fix it. Im throwing my raw ideas to be discus.
Let make some brain storming :)
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#914 - 2011-11-05 15:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Keen Fallsword wrote:
I see one potential solver.

Nerf Matar and make gallente the fastest race in the game. If you want close range you must be the fastest, its the only option for this problem. Coz Devs makes lots of mistakes with matar. Matar ships are fast and agile with is the stupidest idea, you cant be agile and fast at the same time = inertia. Blaster can be OK (EVEN NOW !!) if you always are the fastest one Isn't this true ? Trying anything different will makes things worst..

I think the problem is not with blasters but with AC .. and fast matar ships

Imagine blasters on Matar boats. It can work !



This is the worst idea what i heard.

Make gallentean ship the fastest race in game ? Oh i see, do you want to catch some paper hull matar ships.
Those matar ships have the worst hull in game. Thier advantages just their speeds when a blaster hit them from short distance they burning out instantly. Minnie hit and run tactics when a faster blaster ship using on your ship a web and scrambler ?
You just want "I WIN" button and creating a ship which faster than matarian ship, which have better firepower and better hull. LOL
This would be the fine solution ? No thx no.
Need smarter gallente ship and weapon system buff.


No i dont want "I win" button I want all 4 races to be playable Im both Gallente and Matar pilot. Also do not forgot about Caldari ! they got only few playable ships. Matar is OP and thats the problem and must be nerfed. Ac balance was the worst.

Anyway we need to find idea how to fix it. Im throwing my raw ideas to be discus.
Let make some brain storming :)



Just check your idea. Do you want flying with all race, but what would be happen if you create a faster ship with better damage and hull against matar ships ? No one will fly with minie ships, because a deimos will be faster and kill easily a vagabond or anything else.
The zealot ahac fleet will be change to uber damage deimos fleet or proteus fleet which have over 700 DPS with lol 250k EHP (wich has just 40k armor without slave sett and other bonuses) and faster than other one.
Thx no.

Need to use other fine solution like scrambler range bonus/lvl for gallentean ships and they would be turning off their enemies mwd from farther range. (and this is logic for eve history too because their recon ships use racial scram bonus)

Other thing. Do you want to nerf AC, when after speed nerf no one flight with matar ships, because those ships was crap and they could to shot 15-20km with crap falloff damage, they couldn't fight from short distance (paper hull), they couldn't fight from far distance (crap damage and distance without falloff bonus), but at least they could flight slow after speed nerf. :D
No one used them. Everyone flight with amarrian ships and drakes. LOL
Now when CCP "finaly" rebalanced the matar weapons, and minie ships finaly useable as amarrian ship, do you want to nerf them.

A smart and wise hybrid buff need to put gallente ships to top level again as they did with matar and amarr ships without any nerf.
Lekgoa
Free State Project
#915 - 2011-11-05 15:56:49 UTC
Wow, I was really looking forward to Gallente having a USEFUL bc. Honestly, with the Talos gone (yes, gone, w/o drones or web bonus there's no reason for it to exist) this Gallente "buff" isn't going to benefit anything larger than a frigate. Looks like my ship lineup will still just be frigs, vexor, proteus, and domi.

@CCP: DO SOMETHING USEFUL.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#916 - 2011-11-05 16:06:10 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Keen Fallsword wrote:
I see one potential solver.

Nerf Matar and make gallente the fastest race in the game. If you want close range you must be the fastest, its the only option for this problem. Coz Devs makes lots of mistakes with matar. Matar ships are fast and agile with is the stupidest idea, you cant be agile and fast at the same time = inertia. Blaster can be OK (EVEN NOW !!) if you always are the fastest one Isn't this true ? Trying anything different will makes things worst..

I think the problem is not with blasters but with AC .. and fast matar ships

Imagine blasters on Matar boats. It can work !



This is the worst idea what i heard.

Make gallentean ship the fastest race in game ? Oh i see, do you want to catch some paper hull matar ships.
Those matar ships have the worst hull in game. Thier advantages just their speeds when a blaster hit them from short distance they burning out instantly. Minnie hit and run tactics when a faster blaster ship using on your ship a web and scrambler ?
You just want "I WIN" button and creating a ship which faster than matarian ship, which have better firepower and better hull. LOL
This would be the fine solution ? No thx no.
Need smarter gallente ship and weapon system buff.


No i dont want "I win" button I want all 4 races to be playable Im both Gallente and Matar pilot. Also do not forgot about Caldari ! they got only few playable ships. Matar is OP and thats the problem and must be nerfed. Ac balance was the worst.

Anyway we need to find idea how to fix it. Im throwing my raw ideas to be discus.
Let make some brain storming :)



Just check your idea. Do you want flying with all race, but what would be happen if you create a faster ship with better damage and hull against matar ships ? No one will fly with minie ships, because a deimos will be faster and kill easily a vagabond or anything else.
The zealot ahac fleet will be change to uber damage deimos fleet or proteus fleet which have over 700 DPS with lol 250k EHP (wich has just 40k armor without slave sett and other bonuses) and faster than other one.
Thx no.

Need to use other fine solution like scrambler range bonus/lvl for gallentean ships and they would be turning off their enemies mwd from farther range. (and this is logic for eve history too because their recon ships use racial scram bonus)


Maybe its good idea not to makes gallente the fastest but switch stats between Blasters and Autocannons ? So matar will be 4,5 km range and gallente 10km - sounds good ? same with ammo. Matar is the fastest right ? So blaster range will be fine for them True ?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#917 - 2011-11-05 16:20:42 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Make gallentean ship the fastest race in game ? Oh i see, do you want to catch some paper hull matar ships.
Those matar ships have the worst hull in game. Thier advantages just their speeds when a blaster hit them from short distance they burning out instantly. Minnie hit and run tactics when a faster blaster ship using on their ships a web and scrambler ?
Do you just want a "I WIN" button and creating a ship which faster than matarian ship, which have better firepower and better hull. LOL
This would be the fine solution ? No thx no.
Need smarter gallente ship and weapon system buff.



What paper hull are you talking about? -armor cane push 60k ehp decent dps with no effort no fleet bonus or implants...try harder.

Smarter gallente ship/weapon? -minmatar hulls and weapons, best at gallente job than gallente. So what's your next point?
Lekgoa
Free State Project
#918 - 2011-11-05 16:35:33 UTC
If you don't want to make Gallente the fastest, make them the most agile by a good margin, allowing them to close range quickly and making maneuvers like the Crazy Ivan more practical. As mentioned above, it's silly for one race to be both fast and agile, both from a physics perspective and a gameplay perspective.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#919 - 2011-11-05 16:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Tanya Powers wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Make gallentean ship the fastest race in game ? Oh i see, do you want to catch some paper hull matar ships.
Those matar ships have the worst hull in game. Thier advantages just their speeds when a blaster hit them from short distance they burning out instantly. Minnie hit and run tactics when a faster blaster ship using on their ships a web and scrambler ?
Do you just want a "I WIN" button and creating a ship which faster than matarian ship, which have better firepower and better hull. LOL
This would be the fine solution ? No thx no.
Need smarter gallente ship and weapon system buff.



What paper hull are you talking about? -armor cane push 60k ehp decent dps with no effort no fleet bonus or implants...try harder.

Smarter gallente ship/weapon? -minmatar hulls and weapons, best at gallente job than gallente. So what's your next point?


Oh i see you found the most useable minnie ship and want to compare a bad design brutix which have 62k EHP before winter gallente buff. That's tricky like when i want to compare with thanatos vs nodhoggur or nyx vs hell. Some ship better than other, some ship not in their category.
Next one ?
Oh wait what will be happen when a better damage ship like a mega will be faster than a tempest and hit him from short range ?
Change gallentean ships to faster in game is a fail idea.
When a deimos can catch with scrambler now a vaga can kill easily. What will be happen if gallentean ship will be faster than other one with their huge short range damage ?

You guys always want to nerfing something.
Before speednerf many pilots couldn't catch a vaga. Interesting i fought with 3 vaga in same time with a rapier or huggin.
But i know crying is better for some pilots than learning. :D

I know the hybrid weapon is not good i can flight with all gallentean ships with t2 weapons and all t2 drones (include sentries.fighters.fighter bombers)
Need change, i want flight with most gallentean ship not just with arazu,thanatos but brutix,eos,deimos etc too ,but fastest gallentean ships in game is a fail.
Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#920 - 2011-11-05 16:39:49 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Make gallentean ship the fastest race in game ? Oh i see, do you want to catch some paper hull matar ships.
Those matar ships have the worst hull in game. Thier advantages just their speeds when a blaster hit them from short distance they burning out instantly. Minnie hit and run tactics when a faster blaster ship using on their ships a web and scrambler ?
Do you just want a "I WIN" button and creating a ship which faster than matarian ship, which have better firepower and better hull. LOL
This would be the fine solution ? No thx no.
Need smarter gallente ship and weapon system buff.



What paper hull are you talking about? -armor cane push 60k ehp decent dps with no effort no fleet bonus or implants...try harder.

Smarter gallente ship/weapon? -minmatar hulls and weapons, best at gallente job than gallente. So what's your next point?


Gallente have **** tanks also ALL of there tanking bonuses are for active tanking so i have no clue what tiger is talking bout.