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New dev blog: Hybrid weapon and Tech II ammo balancing

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Dunmur
Tempered Logic
#521 - 2011-11-01 14:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dunmur
Ash MAXIE wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Ash MAXIE wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
That drone idea is terrible.

First, if it's limited to Gallente ships it's an unfair advantage

when you're in combat you don't have drone models on the overview and you wouldn't be able to distinguish it from the 11ty billion other drones out at that time.

It completely makes rails and other ranged attacks useless- you just end up making the pendulum swting in the other direction. Sure you can shoot one or two down, but if everyone has one then likely one is getting through. The ability to probe + warp 150km-250km on grid is already a problem, that idea just makes it worse.


Yea but if you balance the speed and sig of a drone to make it a viable option then it could work well ...and yes make it available for all races but give blaster boats maybe an additional drone speed bonus for this specific drone.

This would eliminate so many problems with blaster boats and increase the probability more to get reds in optimal range without having to compromise other ship stats or change too much base ship attributes , I think it’s worth consideration ...



Picture this though... I am in a hurricane and say, want to be at 60km. They launch a drone to warp in range to me, I turn around and launch the drone in the other direction to warp back out of range. Or I'll just "send forth thy sabres" and hero bubble them.


It's a good idea, yes, but it would never be used as intended.


Well then make this a unique Blaster boat feature, I mean GALLENTE IS AFTER ALL KING OF DRONES. Just make the drone fast enough that it would be 50% chance of getting through to the enemy...I mean its a new concept ..Surely you can play around with it till it works well Blink


I don't really care for the idea so much cuz it sound like a massive change to the code of the game. If so it will give ccp a excuse to sit on the change for another 2+ years while they "work on it"
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#522 - 2011-11-01 14:51:45 UTC
Folks needs to stop trying to fly a Gallente blaster boat like a Minmatar kite ship.

Gallente blaster boats do not engage Minmatar ships at distance, and then try to close to blaster range. That is just plain silly.

Gallente blaster boats attempt to jump right on top of Minmatar ships, pin them down, and kill them before they can run away. If you miss blaster range on the jump, then you just get out. If the Minmatar ship looks like it will make it out of blaster range before you can kill it, then you get out. If you get scrammed outside of blaster range, you launch ECM drones and then get out, or launch damage drones and perhaps go down fighting.

At close range, Gallente blaster boats do more damage than Minmatar AC boats - period. Gallente blaster boats typically have more tank, as well. With the hybrid balancing changes, Gallente boats get a choice of even more tank or more gank.

The only thing going for a Minmatar boat is speed. And, a scram, plus dual webs, puts an end to that particular advantage. Once in close range, a scrammed-double-webbed Minmatar boat is going to struggle to survive long enough to get out of blaster range.

Does it work all of the time? Of course not. That would be just plain silly, too.
Igualmentedos
Perkone
Caldari State
#523 - 2011-11-01 14:53:08 UTC
CCP, Please consider SLIGHTLY nerfing Minmatar weapons (mostly autocannons).

- Also, give Gallente blasterboats a web bonus so once someone is within range, there is no question what's about to happen.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#524 - 2011-11-01 15:01:29 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:


Gallente blaster boats do not engage Minmatar ships at distance, and then try to close to blaster range. That is just plain silly.

.


the issue at hand is this:

when a gallente ship jumps and catches a minnie ship, it still does about the same dps. the only difference - the minnie ship has started applying 100% of its dps and has been hitting you perfectly during your approach.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#525 - 2011-11-01 15:02:11 UTC
what would be so bad as to buff null so that with one or two te you can shoot out to 24km with medium/large nuetrons (mostly in falloff) to hurt kiters?

i mean long range ammo for pulse and autocannons shoots out to 40km

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
CRUOR VENATIO
Doomheim
#526 - 2011-11-01 15:02:15 UTC
Captain Africa wrote:
After reading through most posts here and being a cross trained Gallente pilot myself here is my two cents:

Firstly I would hate to see all ships become replicas in terms of their capabilities , God forbid how boring Eve would be, its important to keep the racial differences and FFS stop comparing the Brutix to the Hurricane , every race has there own Rock Stars !

I am double Amarr and I love the look of the ships but I don’t fly them at all because I don’t like their capabilities , so I trained Minmatar and Gallente cause of their niches that appeals to me. I think the same should be said for Gallente pilots ...fly the role of the race, if you don’t like it train for something else.

Gallentes role or niche is short range fights (between 0and 10 km) and then the drones. When you are caught in that 10 km range against a blaster boat the chance of getting away or winning the fight should be 20% or less. The 0-10 km is the Gallente Blaster zone.
I do believe the damage done by blasters should be significantly more to solidify the Gallente Blaster Zone.

The second very obvious issue is how to get your enemy in that zone of 0-10 km. In high sec or gate camping this wouldn’t be that much of a big deal. So in a way Gallente blaster boats already rule High sec and gate camps !
But with conventional null sec fleets and tactics it causes a problem for the Gallente blaster boats.

I love that Eve video “Real spmething ” where the Gallente fleet gets melted into scrap metal by a Amarr fleet and then a Gallente frig pilot breakes away and fly directly towards the Amaarr fleet enabeling the gallente fleet to warp in at 0 and burn the Amarr alive ! That’s what appeals to me ...now whether that is practically possible in 50% of the scenarios , I honestly don’t know. But I think as far as Blaster boats go we need to look more at tactics to get into that Zone than to try and replicate other races roles. I do believe that Gallente is in a disadvantage here when it comes to null sec warfare. (at the same token it should be very difficult for them to be able to get in that zone to balance things out overall).

So here is an idea in its infant stage Big smile

CCP why not create a drone that you as a blaster boat can warp to ? You release the drone or five drones and send them to the enemy ...once in range you warp to the drone and fleet can warp to you. Of course the drone stats need to be balanced out to make the task of the drone to reach its destination hard and relatively easy for enemy ships to shoot it down. The bigger the gallente fleet the more drones to shoot down by the enemy.....think this might be an option to enable blaster boats to get into blaster zone whether you are a fleet or solo pilot ...and its in line with Gallente culture .

Hope my idea can solve some problems for us..or maybe look at a new gallente frig with desent speed and a brutal tank to make that video mentioned above more a reality than anything else.


I recon this might resolve a lot of problems ...we need something out of the box - THIS IS OUTSIDE THE BOX ! Its unique and with the right balancing it could work well ...increasing the web range or increasing the amount will nullify anyone in that range ....to overpowered ...Gank up the blaster and have a look at alternatives to get into that death zone Gallente was built for ...Oh and stop naging and bitching at CCP - bunch of wet panties !
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#527 - 2011-11-01 15:05:03 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Folks needs to stop trying to fly a Gallente blaster boat like a Minmatar kite ship.

Gallente blaster boats do not engage Minmatar ships at distance, and then try to close to blaster range. That is just plain silly.

Gallente blaster boats attempt to jump right on top of Minmatar ships, pin them down, and kill them before they can run away. If you miss blaster range on the jump, then you just get out. If the Minmatar ship looks like it will make it out of blaster range before you can kill it, then you get out. If you get scrammed outside of blaster range, you launch ECM drones and then get out, or launch damage drones and perhaps go down fighting.

At close range, Gallente blaster boats do more damage than Minmatar AC boats - period. Gallente blaster boats typically have more tank, as well. With the hybrid balancing changes, Gallente boats get a choice of even more tank or more gank.

The only thing going for a Minmatar boat is speed. And, a scram, plus dual webs, puts an end to that particular advantage. Once in close range, a scrammed-double-webbed Minmatar boat is going to struggle to survive long enough to get out of blaster range.

Does it work all of the time? Of course not. That would be just plain silly, too.


Alt/10

The SLIGHT increase in DPS of blasters does not come close to making up for all of their downsides (Lack of range, cap sucking weps, Ammo consumption, ammo size, lack of lack of lack of)

Increase the DPS by a lot and you are on to something. If I can get into range and pin them down my blasters should MELT THEIR FACE. I have also seen some pretty sturdy Minny tanks so I don't know what you are on about.
Phoenix Torp
Almost Absolute
#528 - 2011-11-01 15:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Torp
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:


Gallente blaster boats do not engage Minmatar ships at distance, and then try to close to blaster range. That is just plain silly.

.


the issue at hand is this:

when a gallente ship jumps and catches a minnie ship, it still does about the same dps. the only difference - the minnie ship has started applying 100% of its dps and has been hitting you perfectly during your approach.


And the clever minds of this thread argue (i should say the clever trolls) for tricking getting the minmie ship nearest you can. A minmie ship that always goes faster than you. That's the real stupid thing.
I only point out what other posters have said: armor make your ship slower. THAT CAN'T BE.
And in real combat situation, Gallente is the worst DPS ship (seeing graphics in EFT for Mega Vs. other BS's), so don't say they have the best damage in conditions that aren't real.
Maybe, solving these two problems, will resolve both issues: find a reason to use blasters and being able to apply the damage.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Phoenix_Torp
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#529 - 2011-11-01 15:08:36 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
All these one-line posters going 'Woo!! Thanks CCP! This is awesome!' are going to feel pretty let down when they realise these tweaks basically change nothing.

CCP, this is really disappointing. When the Chaos stats were leaked, you told us that they were WIP and may change. Now, it turns out that they were exactly what you were going to implement (apart from correcting your agility nerf to a buff).

Blaster boats will still be outclassed by every other short-range weapon system. They will still be kited by every other type of ship, with their superior versatility of range. If, by some miracle, a blaster platform gets its target into optimal range, its damage output will still not be enough to make up for all the damage being applied by the opponent while it was getting into range.

Right now, blasters are an all-or-nothing weapon, but their 'all' is really quite pitiful compared to the downsides. So the way to fix them is either to a: give them a truly massive increase in damage output at short range, as a trade-off for all the times they'll be outranged, or b: broaden the envelope where they can be partially effective, while still maintaining their slight advantage up-close.

If you're determined that blasters should remain a very short range weapon, then they really have to do a truckload of damage at that range to make up for all the time getting into range, taking damage while doing none. In other words, blasters should do something like twice the damage of ACs if they get in range. Letting a blaster platform get into optimal range before it's at least half-dead already, should mean almost certain death.

If you don't want to give blasters that kind of insane damage, then you have to give them better range. They shouldn't be iwin buttons at longer ranges, but they desperately need more versatility. No other weapon system has such a small envelope in which to operate, and such a steep decline in effectiveness outside of that sweet spot. So fix it with a rebalancing of ammo types to give blasters viable options at ranges beyond Null.

As for rails, you've designed a weapon system that only gains superiority in ranges where the new scanning mechanics make fighting completely impossible. Just give them another 10% damage boost on top of the one you've given them already, and they might become useful.

It would be nice if CCP posted at all in this thread to reassure all those concerned about this supposed 'rebalancing' that the feedback is actually being taken on board, and being acted on.


What this guy said. I've been waiting with baited breath for blaster boats to become useful again (outside of frigates/the pirate boats) but this doesn't cut it at all. They're still relatively slow, (10m/s is nothing), and unless they can do enough "wow damage" to make up for all the time they took damage on the approach, they're still pretty much useless for open combat.
xaja
yoni corporation
#530 - 2011-11-01 15:09:52 UTC
Hello CCP..

I think you're going in the right direction, and your changes seem largely based on player input already, which is great.

However, I think you're making one mistake MMO companies don't seem to tire of making: changing too many things at once.


All your skills and fittings are a finely tuned game of small percentages.

Taken together, these simultaneous changes to ships and guns add together to something more drastic than I've ever seen in eve.

The whole approach seems even more drastic when compared to the extremely slow and careful tuning to Amarr ships and lasers done in the past.


I'd like to point out the methodology of both car repairs and computer repairs / trouble shooting:

The method is to change ONE thing and then check if its fixed. Because if you change 2 or more things at once:

1) you won't know which measure fixed it
2) if you overshot, you don't know which measure was too much


If the changes stand like they are, I think you've just changed Gallente stuff from underpowered to overpowered in one fell swoop. My guess is that Gallente ships will double in price and there will be pure Gallente roaming gangs all around. This would be fine by me, as I'm all trained up for that, but I don't think a new potentially severe imbalance will make the game better.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2011-11-01 15:14:25 UTC
It is common sense (in my opinion) that the short range guy should be the fastest guy, otherwise he will never have a chance to drop any damage. I don't know why this very simple principle is so hard to understand...
Take an example from other MMOs, the guy with the sword needs a better tank and a method to get in range, or he will loose every battle vs a long distance fighter.

Now, there are many ways to achieve this with many advantages or disadvanteges: Faster ships, more range for webs, immune to webs, special bonuses for MWD modules etc.
But in the end it comes down to the same old problem: if you are slower as a short range fighters there is no way you can win the battle.

And please, don't only look after EFT and numbers. They do not say anything...
Fit a Proteus and a Tengu in EFT and compare the numbers, the Proteus doesn't look too bad.
Now start a Level 4 mission (I have just done this test with Blockade) and you will see that the Tengu only needs 1/3 of the time that the Proteus needs (my Proteus fit was even with faction and more expensive than the Tengu that was only T2 fitted...).
I know this thread is about pvp balancing and my example is a pve example, but it shows the differences very well.

To be honest, in my opinion EVE is very bad balanced in many aspects of the game, not only hybrids.
But hopefully CCP will now start to improve this, better too late then never ;)
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#532 - 2011-11-01 15:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
Sizeof Void wrote:
Folks needs to stop trying to fly a Gallente blaster boat like a Minmatar kite ship.

Gallente blaster boats do not engage Minmatar ships at distance, and then try to close to blaster range. That is just plain silly.

Gallente blaster boats attempt to jump right on top of Minmatar ships, pin them down, and kill them before they can run away. If you miss blaster range on the jump, then you just get out. If the Minmatar ship looks like it will make it out of blaster range before you can kill it, then you get out. If you get scrammed outside of blaster range, you launch ECM drones and then get out, or launch damage drones and perhaps go down fighting.

At close range, Gallente blaster boats do more damage than Minmatar AC boats - period. Gallente blaster boats typically have more tank, as well. With the hybrid balancing changes, Gallente boats get a choice of even more tank or more gank.

The only thing going for a Minmatar boat is speed. And, a scram, plus dual webs, puts an end to that particular advantage. Once in close range, a scrammed-double-webbed Minmatar boat is going to struggle to survive long enough to get out of blaster range.

Does it work all of the time? Of course not. That would be just plain silly, too.


Exactly this.

You know why Gallente whiners (btw, I have Gallente BS 5, and Large Blaster/Rail spec, t2 heavies and sentries and am right now while typing this, sitting in a Vindicator) won't get it? Because they are nullsec blob-fest pilots who want Blasters to be viable at midrange.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#533 - 2011-11-01 15:22:42 UTC
chatgris wrote:


What this guy said. I've been waiting with baited breath for blaster boats to become useful again (outside of frigates/the pirate boats) but this doesn't cut it at all. They're still relatively slow, (10m/s is nothing), and unless they can do enough "wow damage" to make up for all the time they took damage on the approach, they're still pretty much useless for open combat.





i seriously doubt this is the final iteration. im hoping they will take the feedback in this thread seriously, cuz if not...well, no 4.95 deal will bring me back.
ConXtionS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#534 - 2011-11-01 15:23:08 UTC
Sorry I dont know how to do the fancy quote thing

"Exactly this.

You know why Gallente whiners (btw, I have Gallente BS 5, and Large Blaster/Rail spec 5, t2 heavies and sentries and am right now while typing this, sitting in a Vindicator) won't get it? Because they are nullsec blob-fest pilots who want Blasters to be viable at midrange. "


To be honest, I am too old and slow for blasters, but I wouldnt mind RAILS being useful at midrange!!!


Not everyone wants a blaster boat....
Ronin Nazuri
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#535 - 2011-11-01 15:25:26 UTC
Hamox wrote:
It is common sense (in my opinion) that the short range guy should be the fastest guy, otherwise he will never have a chance to drop any damage. I don't know why this very simple principle is so hard to understand...


But but but... EVE lore!

If they'd take the active armor bonus from from Blaster boats and replace it with one that lowers the sig-bloom of MWDs or nullifies the speed nerf of armor mods I think it'd help.
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#536 - 2011-11-01 15:26:19 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Perdition64 wrote:
hurricane vs brutix


this is a good summary of why pvp'ers generally stick with AC platforms.


This is not an equal comparison. The Hurricane is the Tier 2 Battlecruiser, the Brutix is the Tier 1. If the Myrm had any turret-based bonuses it would be the ship to compare to. Compare the Brutix to the Cyclone if you are trying to compare ships.

However, I still thing that CCP needs to look at ships across equivalent Tiers or types (the HAC argument).

Quote:
The gallente deimos has a falloff bonus while the ishtar must fight within drone control range but can use 5 heavy drones.

The amarr zealot has an optimal range bonus while the sacrilege has very short range but extremely high armor resists.

The minmatar muninn has an optimal range bonus too while the vagabond has a maximum velocity bonus. Making it the fastest cruiser hull in game and sometimes even faster then a destroyer.

The caldari HACs are special since both types have long range bonuses. The eagle has a double optimal range bonus to it's hybrid weapons making it the longest range cruiser hull, even rivalling some battleships, while the cerberus has range and damage bonuses to missiles.


Looking at those ships with their appropriate bonuses and platforms, in their pairings, do they all have a place on the battlefield?


Deimos | Munnin | Zealot | Eagle

Ishtar | Sacrilege | Vagabond | Cerberus

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#537 - 2011-11-01 15:29:35 UTC
ConXtionS wrote:
Sorry I dont know how to do the fancy quote thing

"Exactly this.

You know why Gallente whiners (btw, I have Gallente BS 5, and Large Blaster/Rail spec 5, t2 heavies and sentries and am right now while typing this, sitting in a Vindicator) won't get it? Because they are nullsec blob-fest pilots who want Blasters to be viable at midrange. "


To be honest, I am too old and slow for blasters, but I wouldnt mind RAILS being useful at midrange!!!


Not everyone wants a blaster boat....


You click the quote button on the lower right of someones post.

And you're right, I understand if you don't want to dig through the threads, but in all hybrid buff-threads I posted I'm always advocating that the issue with hybrids is with rails, not blasters. Rails could really use some love, while blasters do function in their role today. Maybe a slight damage buff would be at hand, and probably a little tweak to TE's falloff bonus, but the truth is that in shortrange combat - Gallente is king. Still. It's just that in any fleet above a certain size, you need more mobility, and that's what Gallente lack.

I'm also old enough in this game to be bitter over how Gallente completely trashed everything for years, and the sole reason I do have Gallente trained on this character is because Amarr was so underwhelming and Gallente so damn overpowered. It's quite nice to see the whiners today, who don't even know that their race is functional, and yet have short enough memory to not recall when their multi-nos, no bandwith, overpowered damps, nano-bs (and Myrmidon) would just eat everything alive.

But yes, rails could use some love. P

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.
Rixt
Tail Spin Corp
Proxima Centauri Alliance
#538 - 2011-11-01 15:31:00 UTC
Please, don't use this ... font! it's very horrible!
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2011-11-01 15:32:00 UTC
xaja wrote:
Hello CCP..
If the changes stand like they are, I think you've just changed Gallente stuff from underpowered to overpowered in one fell swoop. My guess is that Gallente ships will double in price and there will be pure Gallente roaming gangs all around. This would be fine by me, as I'm all trained up for that, but I don't think a new potentially severe imbalance will make the game better.


I think the main problem about giving Blasters too much damage is that every camp will consist of blaster boats then.
Funny stuff that the only "Democracy" in the EVE Universum is the largest producer for Pirate boats then Roll
Jing Xin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#540 - 2011-11-01 15:32:22 UTC
I want to se ROF bonus on Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh, etc.